HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Vancouver Canucks
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Prospect Thread XIII

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-18-2012, 08:05 PM
  #401
Reverend Mayhem
CRJ + RNH = Sex
 
Reverend Mayhem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Port Coquitlam, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,482
vCash: 500
Send a message via Skype™ to Reverend Mayhem
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisp View Post
You are misinterpreting me. I was actually defending you.
No I'm not. I realize you were defending me and thank you for not misinterpreting what I said. Your posts were the ones that actually referenced me though. I'm just wondering where surefire NHLer came from. Not me.

Reverend Mayhem is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 08:44 PM
  #402
Bleach Clean
Registered User
 
Bleach Clean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 15,574
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by thefeebster View Post
We had no picks through the 1st to 3rd round. How are we supposed to take any "sure bets" from the 4th round and onwards? As people on HF have drilled into us with the lack of hockey due to this lockout, the likelihood of anyone becoming an NHL player after the 2nd round severely diminishes. There are no sure bets in drafting in the late rounds, but we did get a guy ranked 40th by the CSB at #115, that's a low risk pick and good value. And he is developing as we hoped (well up until this cheating scandal).


The surer bets would be players that have a better first pass and a higher defensive IQ. Safer, and more in line with way this team plays.


Quote:
Yes, 2010 is a bit sad overall, but i still don't think it should be a negative used against the McNally pick. Using hindsight and guys chosen quickly after, Gallagher 2 picks after Polasek, Mark Stone 3 picks after Illahti, Trotman 5 picks after Hannay. It's sad when you look at it like that, but not every team hits with these late round picks. Take a look at Detroit from the 4th round onwards: Pulkkinen, Mrazek, Macek, and Ben Marshall. It ain't pretty either and they also have a lone bright spot in Mrazek.

I see Mrazek as the most likely, of he and McNally, to succeed. So I'd take their bottom 4. The point being is that Mrazek is adding to a deeper pool. Thus, the perception is different.


Hindsight will definitely make a Canucks fan pessimistic. That's part of the problem. When your pool is littered with enigmatic players, you tend to look at riskier players with even more suspicion.

Bleach Clean is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 09:23 PM
  #403
arsmaster
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 18,096
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
The surer bets would be players that have a better first pass and a higher defensive IQ. Safer, and more in line with way this team plays.





I see Mrazek as the most likely, of he and McNally, to succeed. So I'd take their bottom 4. The point being is that Mrazek is adding to a deeper pool. Thus, the perception is different.


Hindsight will definitely make a Canucks fan pessimistic. That's part of the problem. When your pool is littered with enigmatic players, you tend to look at riskier players with even more suspicion.
Detroit also took Riley Sheahan with Kuznetsov on the board.

I can generally get on board with your points, but this part is bugging me.

I'm looking for a response to what I posed to you earlier - what is Detroit's 'system'.

It seems like you're advocating drafting an Aaron Rome instead of and Ehrhoff ...I'm not following you here.

I mean, from a highlight video of a prospects first 3 NCAA games over a year ago, we''ve determined that McNally can't skate backwards or make a good first pass?

The Canucks system is solely to ride the Sedin's, I doubt they are still playing in 5 years, so why draft players to fit with them?

arsmaster is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 09:31 PM
  #404
thefeebster
Registered User
 
thefeebster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 5,585
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
The surer bets would be players that have a better first pass and a higher defensive IQ. Safer, and more in line with way this team plays.
Who says he has a weak first pass? If he was strong defensively, who knows if he would have been available for us in the 4th?

Using one of the players you mentioned, Ryan McDonagh was drafted out of high school where he was considered a complete defensemen, exceptional at both ends of the rink. He was selected 12th overall. If McNally had McDonagh's defensive awareness, there is no doubt in my mind he would have gone earlier than 115th. What you are describing or wanting is not a guy you will get in the late 4th round. Late round picks aren't without their flaws, it depends on how they work at it and whether they are willing to work at it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I see Mrazek as the most likely, of he and McNally, to succeed. So I'd take their bottom 4. The point being is that Mrazek is adding to a deeper pool. Thus, the perception is different.
I believe you missed the point. The point was that you don't hit with all your selections, no team can, not even a team you have consistently touted as superior. You are going to get duds and guys who are a work in progress.

thefeebster is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 09:44 PM
  #405
StrictlyCommercial
Registered User
 
StrictlyCommercial's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,805
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisp View Post
Reverend Mayhem did.

StrictlyCommercial, If you're going to call someone out, at least have the guts do it to them directly.
Easy now drama queen, not calling anyone out, just stating my opinion.

StrictlyCommercial is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 09:51 PM
  #406
Bleach Clean
Registered User
 
Bleach Clean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 15,574
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by thefeebster View Post
Who says he has a weak first pass? If he was strong defensively, who knows if he would have been available for us in the 4th?

Using one of the players you mentioned, Ryan McDonagh was drafted out of high school where he was considered a complete defensemen, exceptional at both ends of the rink. He was selected 12th overall. If McNally had McDonagh's defensive awareness, there is no doubt in my mind he would have gone earlier than 115th. What you are describing or wanting is not a guy you will get in the late 4th round. Late round picks aren't without their flaws, it depends on how they work at it and whether they are willing to work at it.

I believe you missed the point. The point was that you don't hit with all your selections, no team can, not even a team you have consistently touted as superior. You are going to get duds and guys who are a work in progress.



That's the point you are trying to make, not the one I am advocating. Of course, in the general sense, you are going to get duds in the later rounds. But some teams like DET get value here because they take physically flawed (size, skating) players that have a higher IQ and better skill and it works.



How does a team like DET get Almqvist in round 7. His main strength is his IQ. Next is Nyquist, a 4th rounder, who again plays a heady game first and foremost. These picks also have flaws, but their flaws are largely mitigated in how they process the game.



About the first pass: I'm not saying McNally's is poor, only that he might be looking to rush first than pass, when this system goes the other way. He'll have to rely on his pass, good or otherwise, than his rush to make this team.

Bleach Clean is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 10:12 PM
  #407
Bleach Clean
Registered User
 
Bleach Clean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 15,574
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Detroit also took Riley Sheahan with Kuznetsov on the board.

I can generally get on board with your points, but this part is bugging me.

I'm looking for a response to what I posed to you earlier - what is Detroit's 'system'.


Puck possession through stick skills and body position, usually accompanied by strong positional IQ away from the puck. Smarter players. Now everyone wants to draft smarter players, but the deeper you go in the draft the steeper the trade-off between size+skating and IQ. That's why a lot of their later picks tend to be smaller/slower skating players with high end hockey sense. Clearly, they bank on being able to physically develop their players in house.



The Canucks, from what I can tell, are now placing an emphasis on size+skill+skating combination. 2way IQ is not required in the same sense. Neither is stick skills/body positioning. So for them, they will see a greater downside of targeting a poised+high IQ player with little size + poorer skating, where DET doesn't. Hope that helps.





Quote:
It seems like you're advocating drafting an Aaron Rome instead of and Ehrhoff ...I'm not following you here.

I mean, from a highlight video of a prospects first 3 NCAA games over a year ago, we''ve determined that McNally can't skate backwards or make a good first pass?

The Canucks system is solely to ride the Sedin's, I doubt they are still playing in 5 years, so why draft players to fit with them?


Did I say he could not make a good first pass? I'm saying he has a penchant to rush instead of pass, so why try to beat that out of him when he gets here instead of targeting a player who plays pass first hockey and is more sound positionally? Extra poise a bonus.



I've seen McEneny only 3 times, but he's the type of player I'm referring to. He plays a far steadier game than McNally. A smarter game. And he seems to have better size. I would want the Canucks to draft more players of this mold than the smaller puck rushers who struggle with defense, style wise, if that makes any sense... This is especially ironic because I had my trepidations about the Canucks taking a flyer on McEneny due to his injury.

Bleach Clean is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 10:28 PM
  #408
me2
Seahawks 43
 
me2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Broncos 8
Country: Wallis & Futuna
Posts: 19,122
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PRNuck View Post
Hey man, that alone is good enough for a spot on Steve Spott's team Canada.
I was trying not to go there.

me2 is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 10:45 PM
  #409
Drop the Sopel
Feaster famine
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: calgary
Posts: 15,766
vCash: 500
Bieksa and Ehrhoff routinely rushed the puck for us. I wouldn't say AV is opposed to this type of dman at all - as long as the reward outweighs the risk. Ballard just hasn't been able to accomplish much of anything with the puck on his stick, so he won't get the same rope as an Ehrhoff.

Remember the 1st dman Gillis targeted when he came on board - Dan Boyle. Boyle is a puck-rusher through and through and Gillis was fully willing to invest close to $7mil in cap space and a slew of assets to acquire him.

I love the McNally pick, even if he never reaches the NHL. High risk, high reward pick with a late 4th is a gamble worth taking IMO. It's the Daniel Rahimi and Taylor Ellingtons I hope we never see again...

Gillis' approach to drafting dmen is solid IMO. Smart, mobile and offensive upside seems to be the mantra. It's his record with picking forwards that needs work. We're not getting results here.

Drop the Sopel is online now  
Old
12-18-2012, 10:55 PM
  #410
Jevo
Registered User
 
Jevo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Country: Denmark
Posts: 2,505
vCash: 500
It seems this has been glossed over, but Jensen was in action this morning and picked up an assist. He went hard to the net with the puck and got a shot off, which was either blocked or saved, I'm not sure, and Kris Beech scores on the rebound. You can see it on the first video here:

http://aikhockey.se/trupp/AIK/4937/video

Jevo is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 11:01 PM
  #411
me2
Seahawks 43
 
me2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Broncos 8
Country: Wallis & Futuna
Posts: 19,122
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
It seems like you're advocating drafting an Aaron Rome instead of and Ehrhoff ...I'm not following you here.
I'm guess his point would not be Rome but rather Salo vs Ehrhoff. It'd be more Aaron Rome vs Gragnani.

me2 is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 11:02 PM
  #412
me2
Seahawks 43
 
me2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Broncos 8
Country: Wallis & Futuna
Posts: 19,122
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jevo View Post
It seems this has been glossed over, but Jensen was in action this morning and picked up an assist. He went hard to the net with the puck and got a shot off, which was either blocked or saved, I'm not sure, and Kris Beech scores on the rebound. You can see it on the first video here:
Well he wasn't going to pick up an assist off a pass

me2 is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 11:41 PM
  #413
Lonny Bohonos
Kassian = P.A.G.A.N
 
Lonny Bohonos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: United Nations
Posts: 8,291
vCash: 500
Detroits strength is Hakan in Europe.

Lonny Bohonos is offline  
Old
12-19-2012, 12:02 AM
  #414
Jevo
Registered User
 
Jevo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Country: Denmark
Posts: 2,505
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by me2 View Post
Well he wasn't going to pick up an assist off a pass
Jensen only passes to the back of the net.

Jevo is offline  
Old
12-19-2012, 12:13 AM
  #415
thefeebster
Registered User
 
thefeebster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 5,585
vCash: 500
Okay, got it. You want high IQ, high skill players who may be small and/or slow but can overcome their stature and skating because of their high IQ. I can understand the upside in that.

But you look at their drafts from 2006-2010 in the late rounds, this doesn't really "work" as you put it. Beyond your two examples, albeit a great one in Nyqvist, there is nothing you can call a true success. And look at their past two drafts. You can't say size isn't a factor anymore. They, like us, are shifting their focus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Did I say he could not make a good first pass? I'm saying he has a penchant to rush instead of pass, so why try to beat that out of him when he gets here instead of targeting a player who plays pass first hockey and is more sound positionally? Extra poise a bonus.
I believe stating that a better prospect (aka surer bet aka not McNally) would have a better pass and higher defensive IQ alludes to the belief that you think he does not make a good first pass. And previously you said his first pass would make or break him as a prospect, implying you do not have much faith in it right now at least.

Ehrhoff wasn't the player he is now when he was 20. He learned to adapt, just like Subban did. They became smarter with what works and what doesn't through experience. Why exactly are we trying to force McNally to become a pass-first player? He is not afraid to pass when the option is open. I'd like to highlight with finality that he is not adverse to passing. Ehrhoff rushed the puck often as well and fit into our system seamlessly. So i am just not understanding why McNally must change or he is not accepted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I've seen McEneny only 3 times, but he's the type of player I'm referring to. He plays a far steadier game than McNally. A smarter game. And he seems to have better size. I would want the Canucks to draft more players of this mold than the smaller puck rushers who struggle with defense, style wise, if that makes any sense... This is especially ironic because I had my trepidations about the Canucks taking a flyer on McEneny due to his injury.
Why must we target only one type of player? Why can't we have target the McEnenys and be able to target a McNally type once every few years? We have a lot in McEneny's mold - good skating, smart, two-way D that aren't that physical but show some average/above average offensive skills; Tanev, Corrado, Price, McEneny, Tommernes, Andersson, Hutton. Is it really a detriment to us to invest a late round pick in a highly talented, highly skilled defenseman with good size but is still working through their defense? I don't see the harm or the lament.


Last edited by thefeebster: 12-19-2012 at 02:03 AM. Reason: forgot to specify late round picks in 06-10
thefeebster is offline  
Old
12-19-2012, 02:07 AM
  #416
Outside99*
Sedins off Kas
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,347
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Not having a good to great puck rusher last season killed our PP's effectiveness.

I liked Ehrhoff, and he clearly helped our zone entries on the PP...without him, we became dependant on the neutral zone drop pass which ultimately killed our season.

Puck rushing is a great skill to possess, I don't care what system you play, if you can't gain the line, you're dumping and chasing.
Ehrhoff is not solely a puck rusher though and he certainly didn't do it all the time - the way I see it, if you're constantly rushing the puck that kind of indicates that's all you have in your toolbox and as the opposition gets stronger or gets to know you, you'll find that you're less and less successful.

Outside99* is offline  
Old
12-19-2012, 02:15 AM
  #417
vanuck
Griffiths Way Goons
 
vanuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Country: Hong Kong
Posts: 10,303
vCash: 500
Why does there seem to be such a disparity between identifying good D-men versus forwards anyway (mainly talking about Tanev, Corrado, Price, McEneny, Tommernes, Andersson and Hutton here as mentioned)? Our OHL scout certainly seems to have no trouble finding talent regardless of position (Jensen, Gaunce vs. Corrado, McEneny). Perhaps it just comes down to individual ability of the scout?

vanuck is online now  
Old
12-19-2012, 02:21 AM
  #418
Verviticus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 4,979
vCash: 500
probably sample size, like most draft questions of "why"

Verviticus is offline  
Old
12-19-2012, 03:22 AM
  #419
Kass Effect
Registered User
 
Kass Effect's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Data Corrupted
Posts: 1,284
vCash: 500
So McNally is very good at rushing the puck... and some of you want him to do it less because it won't work as often in the pros??? Crazy talk. Round out your weaknesses, but always stick to your strengths. It looks as though he can skate and handle the puck at the same time, with the best in college hockey. I think he should continue on.

Kass Effect is offline  
Old
12-19-2012, 08:48 AM
  #420
Tank
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 52
vCash: 500
I agree with you VANUCK.

Tank is offline  
Old
12-19-2012, 11:58 AM
  #421
Nuck This
Registered User
 
Nuck This's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,094
vCash: 500
Question. Would you guys trade Jensen(29th) for Armia(16th) or J.T miller(15th)? I'm just looking over that 2011 draft and Jensen is a pretty big steal. I'm not sure if I would.

Nuck This is online now  
Old
12-19-2012, 12:03 PM
  #422
Mr. Canucklehead
Mod Supervisor
Kitimat Canuck
 
Mr. Canucklehead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Kitimat, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,891
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jevo View Post
It seems this has been glossed over, but Jensen was in action this morning and picked up an assist. He went hard to the net with the puck and got a shot off, which was either blocked or saved, I'm not sure, and Kris Beech scores on the rebound. You can see it on the first video here:

http://aikhockey.se/trupp/AIK/4937/video
Thanks - I didn't realize his stint with the national men's team had ended already. Nice to see him keeping up his pace with AIK.

On the subject of McNally, ProspectProphet makes a good point. Play to your strengths and develop the weaker areas of your game. I think McNally is an intelligent enough player that he will be able to strike a balance between the offensive and defensive sides of things.

Mr. Canucklehead is online now  
Old
12-19-2012, 01:01 PM
  #423
PRNuck
Registered User
 
PRNuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,443
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuck This View Post
Question. Would you guys trade Jensen(29th) for Armia(16th) or J.T miller(15th)? I'm just looking over that 2011 draft and Jensen is a pretty big steal. I'm not sure if I would.
Nope Jensen's a beaut. I think for all his faults (and all the ugliness with Hodgson) Gillis has done a good job with his first rounders so far.

PRNuck is offline  
Old
12-19-2012, 01:13 PM
  #424
StringerBell
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 10,000
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuck This View Post
Question. Would you guys trade Jensen(29th) for Armia(16th) or J.T miller(15th)? I'm just looking over that 2011 draft and Jensen is a pretty big steal. I'm not sure if I would.
Not for Miller but maybe Armia.

StringerBell is offline  
Old
12-19-2012, 01:19 PM
  #425
Nuck This
Registered User
 
Nuck This's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,094
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PRNuck View Post
Nope Jensen's a beaut. I think for all his faults (and all the ugliness with Hodgson) Gillis has done a good job with his first rounders so far.
Agreed. It's his 2nd and 3rd rounders that could use some work. I've been happy with his 1sts and 4-7s but than again we have missed a few 2nd and 3rds do to trades.

Nuck This is online now  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:29 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.