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Lockout V: Take the Long Way Home

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Old
12-19-2012, 07:36 AM
  #351
pepty
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL...slam!%20hockey

Pundit calls for someone other that the current commissioner to present Stanley Cup to winning captain.
I completely disagree with this point of view. Bettman is a lightening rod and has been vilified to a ridiculous degree, but he has done what was necessary, unpopular or not to keep the league viable.

He has to wrangle the owners who are happy to blow their own brains out and cripple other teams to get the players they want as well as the most obdurate and belligerent PA in North American sports.

Many teams would be already gone if the players still scooped 75 percent of revenue This lockout was necessary as the NHLPA refused to negotiate in advance and would without doubt have stalled and delayed all season and struck before the playoffs. The CBA had to be changed to put the small and mid market teams on a healthier footing.

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12-19-2012, 08:09 AM
  #352
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL...slam!%20hockey

Pundit calls for someone other that the current commissioner to present Stanley Cup to winning captain.
I agree. I've always thought what the league should do is have one of its iconic former players give the Cup to the winning team. Have a Gordie Howe do it one year. Bobby Orr another. Jean Beliveau. etc. There are plenty of the greats around that you could do this indefinitely. It would link younger viewers to the great history of the game and be a great positive feel at the arena and on TV for the fans. Much better than what they do now.

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12-19-2012, 08:24 AM
  #353
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yeah and so

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepty View Post
I completely disagree with this point of view. Bettman is a lightening rod and has been vilified to a ridiculous degree, but he has done what was necessary, unpopular or not to keep the league viable.

He has to wrangle the owners who are happy to blow their own brains out and cripple other teams to get the players they want as well as the most obdurate and belligerent PA in North American sports.

Many teams would be already gone if the players still scooped 75 percent of revenue This lockout was necessary as the NHLPA refused to negotiate in advance and would without doubt have stalled and delayed all season and struck before the playoffs. The CBA had to be changed to put the small and mid market teams on a healthier footing.
I don't care who hands Chara the cup the next time. I agree that Bettman has been vilified, but hey in following the directives of his constituancy, ya gotta admit it does come with the territory. And while I love your elegant use of language in describing the PA I find it interesting that you don't afford the PA and it's leadership (that has been equally vilified here and elsewhere) the same presepective as you profess Bettman and the NHL should be viewed. Interesting.

In a free market the NHL is and should be allowed to place franchises where they desire. It is incumbant on them to make the business decisions about where and under what circumstances these franchises are established.

Instead they blamed the inventory (the players) for costing too much. LOL Only business that does that BTW. And claimed they needed "cost certainty" in 05. And they got it the way they wanted it. With a cap. Love that too. And when they got it, they blew it and then blamed the inventory again.

Hey the strategy worked once lets do it again seems to be thier approach.

Look, I don't disagree this is a mess and should have been avoided. But the NHL is in the same position as General Robert E. Lee was at Gettysburgh. He didn't want the fight where it was, on the ground it was on, but its where they were fighting so they fought.

There's a deal to be made, blame goes both ways as far as i'm concerned, but there is more to be negotiated and a number of tricky elements or phrasing about various aspects need to be still worked out. Things that can and should be done.

But if the NHL takes an intractable position, and refuses to discuss the points of difference with the union representation then its going down the rocky road IMHO.

Not liking the PA rep. (Fehr) strikes me as childish. As is not liking Bettman because he's taking the positions he has is equally childish. Stupid is refusing to negotiate and discuss matters to a resolution.

The difference this time is the PA has a pro at the helm. Maybe more years of negotiating on behalf of unions that Bettman has had as lawyer.

He's doing exactly what the PA should have done the last time and if they had, we wouldn't be in this position now. Again, MHO

In the end, the only way to avoid these things (lockouts and strikes) is to approach matters in a way that treats both sides as equal partners in gowing this business.

No matter what side you believe is right, at this stage the confrontation has occured and like at Gettysburgh the fight is joined. It was still a long (too long) and bloody war after Gettysburgh but it was never the same war for the South.

I hope they find the "Better Angels of their Nature" an resolve things before it gets any worse.

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Old
12-19-2012, 08:27 AM
  #354
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Originally Posted by pepty View Post
I completely disagree with this point of view. Bettman is a lightening rod and has been vilified to a ridiculous degree, but he has done what was necessary, unpopular or not to keep the league viable.

He has to wrangle the owners who are happy to blow their own brains out and cripple other teams to get the players they want as well as the most obdurate and belligerent PA in North American sports.
I tend to side with hockey people like Brian Burke in their opinion of Gary Bettman - thinking very highly of him and his vision for the NHL, considering what he has had to work with and against.

That said, I don't necessarily think he should be presenting the Stanley Cup, nor do I think that it verifies his success as commissioner. I think both the draft and the Stanley Cup presentation could be better with someone a little more relatable and likable (I like him, and would love to take him for lunch sometime).

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12-19-2012, 08:39 AM
  #355
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Originally Posted by WildGopher View Post
I agree. I've always thought what the league should do is have one of its iconic former players give the Cup to the winning team. Have a Gordie Howe do it one year. Bobby Orr another. Jean Beliveau. etc. There are plenty of the greats around that you could do this indefinitely. It would link younger viewers to the great history of the game and be a great positive feel at the arena and on TV for the fans. Much better than what they do now.
... and hey, people might not boo when the Cup presented.

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12-19-2012, 08:47 AM
  #356
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... and hey, people might not boo when the Cup presented.
Or you know, hockey fans could always just not boo Gary Bettman.

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12-19-2012, 08:54 AM
  #357
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Or you know, hockey fans could always just not boo Gary Bettman.
There's a better chance of the lockout ending this week.

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12-19-2012, 09:30 AM
  #358
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Even if Bettman holds onto his job after this debacle ends, the days of him making public appearances for any NHL event are over.

This guy is poison to the fans whenever he shows his face, whether it's at the draft, during the Stanley Cup presentation, or at an awards show. Him showing up in public after the lockout ends will damage the sport even more. And it's really his incompetence and lack of leadership that made the fans hate him, so you can't feel bad for the guy.

I read in a book recently that Bettman said in order to do the commish job right in any sport, you have to have people dislike you. But that's a pretty dangerous thing for a guy like Bettman to believe. Not only is he not doing the job right, but that sentiment combined with his own ego is keeping him trapped in his own little delusional world.

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12-19-2012, 09:43 AM
  #359
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Originally Posted by Ronald Dubinsky View Post
Even if Bettman holds onto his job after this debacle ends, the days of him making public appearances for any NHL event are over.

This guy is poison to the fans whenever he shows his face, whether it's at the draft, during the Stanley Cup presentation, or at an awards show. Him showing up in public after the lockout ends will damage the sport even more. And it's really his incompetence and lack of leadership that made the fans hate him, so you can't feel bad for the guy.

I read in a book recently that Bettman said in order to do the commish job right in any sport, you have to have people dislike you. But that's a pretty dangerous thing for a guy like Bettman to believe. Not only is he not doing the job right, but that sentiment combined with his own ego is keeping him trapped in his own little delusional world.
Bettman is doing exactly what he's supposed to as commissioner - what the owners tell him to do. He'll keep his job and probably get a raise. Who cares if the fans like him or not.

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12-19-2012, 10:14 AM
  #360
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Originally Posted by WildGopher View Post
I agree. I've always thought what the league should do is have one of its iconic former players give the Cup to the winning team. Have a Gordie Howe do it one year. Bobby Orr another. Jean Beliveau. etc. There are plenty of the greats around that you could do this indefinitely. It would link younger viewers to the great history of the game and be a great positive feel at the arena and on TV for the fans. Much better than what they do now.
So, give the asylum over to the inmates?

Commissioners award championship trophies. You think that should change for hockey just because many vocal hockey fans don't like the commissioner??

It will never change, nor should it.

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12-19-2012, 10:32 AM
  #361
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Bettman is doing exactly what he's supposed to as commissioner - what the owners tell him to do. He'll keep his job and probably get a raise. Who cares if the fans like him or not.
While your statement is factually correct, the point is the fans care, and ultimately they consume the product and pay the rent, so to speak.

Now, I'm not saying anyone should or shouldn't boycott the NHL because they don't like the commissioner or whether hatred of that person is justified or not, but if it DID come down to it and the fans decided they didn't want to watch the NHL because of Gary Bettman... well, I can guarantee you more people in higher places would start caring.

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12-19-2012, 10:48 AM
  #362
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So, give the asylum over to the inmates?

Commissioners award championship trophies. You think that should change for hockey just because many vocal hockey fans don't like the commissioner??

It will never change, nor should it.
It should change.

Each time Bettman shows his face in public while presenting the Cup, whatever arena it is drowns him out with boos and some fans throw things on the ice in disgust.

The words from the PA guy of "and now, presenting the Stanley Cup..." should never be booed. It makes this mickey mouse league look like more of a joke than it already is. Fans booing the championship trophy.

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12-19-2012, 10:53 AM
  #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Dubinsky View Post
It should change.

Each time Bettman shows his face in public while presenting the Cup, whatever arena it is drowns him out with boos and some fans throw things on the ice in disgust.

The words from the PA guy of "and now, presenting the Stanley Cup..." should never be booed. It makes this mickey mouse league look like more of a joke than it already is. Fans booing the championship trophy.
Most probably aren't booing and throwing things in disgust so much as they are doing it because they are drunk *******s.

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12-19-2012, 10:55 AM
  #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Dubinsky View Post
It should change.

Each time Bettman shows his face in public while presenting the Cup, whatever arena it is drowns him out with boos and some fans throw things on the ice in disgust.

The words from the PA guy of "and now, presenting the Stanley Cup..." should never be booed. It makes this mickey mouse league look like more of a joke than it already is. Fans booing the championship trophy.
Well, blame the fans, they are the clueless ones.

Your argument doesn't make any sense anyway. The commissioner being booed is true for the other leagues as well, does that also make them mickey mouse leagues?

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12-19-2012, 11:03 AM
  #365
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Well, blame the fans, they are the clueless ones.

Your argument doesn't make any sense anyway. The commissioner being booed is true for the other leagues as well, does that also make them mickey mouse leagues?
Clueless is right. Most of them boo, because they are losers, and they get to boo someone who is successful.

If we are going to take the commissioner out of the presentation, then ...considering what ***** some of these guys have been in this lockout...we should take the players out of the presentation as well. Just give it to the coach or something.

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12-19-2012, 11:11 AM
  #366
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There shouldn't be anyone presenting the cup. It should be put in centre ice with the PA announcer of the winning team (travelling with the team if he has to) saying come get the cup to the captain and the captain goes to centre ice and lifts it up. No Bettman or other dbag commissioner in the way.

Anyways this has nothing to do with the lockout itself or the business but I can see why something unrelated would be talked about since they've had 0 developments. Seems to me that the PA stretched their voting out for 6 days hoping the NHL would at some point negotiate with them and it hasn't worked yet.

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12-19-2012, 11:12 AM
  #367
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Originally Posted by pepty View Post
I completely disagree with this point of view. Bettman is a lightening rod and has been vilified to a ridiculous degree, but he has done what was necessary, unpopular or not to keep the league viable.

He has to wrangle the owners who are happy to blow their own brains out and cripple other teams to get the players they want as well as the most obdurate and belligerent PA in North American sports.

Many teams would be already gone if the players still scooped 75 percent of revenue This lockout was necessary as the NHLPA refused to negotiate in advance and would without doubt have stalled and delayed all season and struck before the playoffs. The CBA had to be changed to put the small and mid market teams on a healthier footing.
Even if one were to accept what you said as true --- and i think your defense of Bettman is way off base -- what does that have to do with presenting the cup?

I think last year's captain should present it to the new captain.

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12-19-2012, 11:17 AM
  #368
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I think it probably would be better to have someone else hand over the cup. Why not have legends of the game do it? Preferably someone with connection to the winning team. For example last year you would have Dionne and Niedermayer ready to do it.

Bettman is so polarizing that I think him doing it isn't worth it anymore. The players don't like him. The fans don't like him.

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12-19-2012, 11:22 AM
  #369
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Following exactly what the NFL does won't really help the NHL teams based on where the wealth is, and how often teams play each other. The SW, and SE wouldn't see any of the benefit to the system the NFL uses. If you change it, and put 50% of everyones gate into a pool, and 100% of their local TV deals into a pool - and I'm likely making completely ignorant guesses on TV... however unless I'm off by a few 100m, it doesn't really matter. And even if I am off... for every 100m I'm off on the TV side... that's only 3.33m going to a team. So the difference isn't that massive compared to what each team would have to give up.

And we can't forget that the NFL has a national TV deal (no local deals) that pays billions. I don't expect the NHL to land something like that any time soon (or ever really), but we can't just ignore it either.

50% of gate would mean a poor team is giving up ~9m (very rough estimate - but feel free to do them yourselves) and getting ~15/16m in return. The net is only 6-8m. Remember... that pool is going out to every team. Even if I'm wrong and off by a few million... the benefit still doesn't really make a huge difference to the bottom teams. It does to the middle class... but the bottom guys see more or less the same as they would with what the NHL proposed.

Feel free to do the math if you disagree. But I've been playing with it on/off for a few hours now... and from what I can see, it's just not there... not when you're sharing that pot amongst 30 teams.
No, I trust your math (and I don't have enough coffee in me yet to trust mine at this point). In any case my argument isn't based on absolute dollars that clubs would get from it, but rather from the point that it's a playing field leveler between the clubs and makes for an overall stronger and more stable league.

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12-19-2012, 11:22 AM
  #370
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Even if Bettman holds onto his job after this debacle ends, the days of him making public appearances for any NHL event are over.
Is that your prognostication, or have you actually seen something indicating this?

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Originally Posted by RedMenace View Post
Now, I'm not saying anyone should or shouldn't boycott the NHL because they don't like the commissioner or whether hatred of that person is justified or not, but if it DID come down to it and the fans decided they didn't want to watch the NHL because of Gary Bettman... well, I can guarantee you more people in higher places would start caring.
Wow. All I can say is, if fans decide they don't want to watch hockey because of who is sitting in their front office, they're not exactly fans, are they? C'mon.

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Clueless is right. Most of them boo, because they are losers, and they get to boo someone who is successful.
Actually, I think most of 'em boo because they're following the leader. Some folks boo, then more, then the rest just chime in. I'll bet half of 'em don't even know who or why they're booing.

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12-19-2012, 11:48 AM
  #371
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Originally Posted by Ronald Dubinsky View Post
It should change.

Each time Bettman shows his face in public while presenting the Cup, whatever arena it is drowns him out with boos and some fans throw things on the ice in disgust.

The words from the PA guy of "and now, presenting the Stanley Cup..." should never be booed. It makes this mickey mouse league look like more of a joke than it already is. Fans booing the championship trophy.
You missed the presentation last June, eh?

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No, I said I want a naked Lady Gaga to present it. (going with the flow....)
So, we want lots of pffftss instead of boos?

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12-19-2012, 11:49 AM
  #372
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Wayne Gretzky should present the cup...every single year.

Problem solved

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12-19-2012, 11:51 AM
  #373
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Wayne Gretzky should present the cup...every single year.

Problem solved
Hell to the no!

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12-19-2012, 11:59 AM
  #374
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Even if one were to accept what you said as true --- and i think your defense of Bettman is way off base -- what does that have to do with presenting the cup?

I think last year's captain should present it to the new captain.
I doubt the players would ever go for this, especially if that captain who won last year just lost in the finals. There's no reason to force them to go in front of everyone and awkwardly hand the cup over.

If anything, have some all time greats hand it off each year - maybe the guys who got inducted into the hall of fame.

But really, it's tradition and happens in every sport.

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12-19-2012, 12:00 PM
  #375
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I doubt the players would ever go for this, especially if that captain who won last year just lost in the finals. There's no reason to force them to go in front of everyone and awkwardly hand the cup over.

If anything, have some all time greats hand it off each year - maybe the guys who got inducted into the hall of fame.

But really, it's tradition and happens in every sport.
It might be hard for a captain to do, but I think it would be an honor, regardless.
Being a captain is a duty.

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