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Old
12-19-2012, 12:39 PM
  #426
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
Not for Miller but maybe Armia.
What?

The only player I'd even consider over Jensen from that draft (taken outside the top 10) is Baertschi, and even then I think we needed the size and natural finishing Jensen provides more than a dynamic play maker (although Baertschi with kesler would be some kinda nice).

I don't think you can make a case for any pick 10-40 in that draft that I'd take over Jensen at this point.

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12-19-2012, 12:43 PM
  #427
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Originally Posted by ProspectProphet View Post
So McNally is very good at rushing the puck... and some of you want him to do it less because it won't work as often in the pros??? Crazy talk. Round out your weaknesses, but always stick to your strengths. It looks as though he can skate and handle the puck at the same time, with the best in college hockey. I think he should continue on.
I agree. While he won't be able to rush the puck the same way in the pros, the skating/stickhandling/vision that is takes for him to do it at lower levels will certainly be an asset in pro hockey.

This is an interesting debate you guys are having. On one hand it's a lot easier to teach positioning and defensive play than it is to teach size, skating and physical ability. On the other hand, you can't teach a dummy much at all. Like most things I feel like balance is key.

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12-19-2012, 12:46 PM
  #428
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Originally Posted by Nuck This View Post
Agreed. It's his 2nd and 3rd rounders that could use some work. I've been happy with his 1sts and 4-7s but than again we have missed a few 2nd and 3rds do to trades.
I've noticed that people tend to compare our 2nd and 3rd round picks to 4-7... the match doesn't add up. We've traded a couple of those 2nd and 3rd rounders, plus you're comparing 4 picks to 2. Everything after the 1st round is a crap shoot... maybe the answer is to trade down?

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12-19-2012, 12:49 PM
  #429
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
I agree. While he won't be able to rush the puck the same way in the pros, the skating/stickhandling/vision that is takes for him to do it at lower levels will certainly be an asset in pro hockey.

This is an interesting debate you guys are having. On one hand it's a lot easier to teach positioning and defensive play than it is to teach size, skating and physical ability. On the other hand, you can't teach a dummy much at all. Like most things I feel like balance is key.
Well we can only a hope a player who was accepted to one of the world's most prestigious Universities isn't a dummy.

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12-19-2012, 01:08 PM
  #430
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Well we can only a hope a player who was accepted to one of the world's most prestigious Universities isn't a dummy.
I don't think book smarts = hockey smarts.

If I had to guess I'd say common sense and some mechanical aptitude > book smarts in terms of translating it to hockey.

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Old
12-19-2012, 01:11 PM
  #431
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
I don't think book smarts = hockey smarts.

If I had to guess I'd say common sense and some mechanical aptitude > book smarts in terms of translating it to hockey.
True enough.

Hopefully he's more of a dedicated, hard work, smart person than a naturally smart person.

Cue the, 'but he got caught cheating' comments.

edit * naturally smart isn't what i was trying to say. Dont really know what I was trying to say, just hoping he's dedicated to becoming as good as he can be.

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12-19-2012, 01:18 PM
  #432
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
What?

The only player I'd even consider over Jensen from that draft (taken outside the top 10) is Baertschi, and even then I think we needed the size and natural finishing Jensen provides more than a dynamic play maker (although Baertschi with kesler would be some kinda nice).

I don't think you can make a case for any pick 10-40 in that draft that I'd take over Jensen at this point.
Baertschi is above Jensen, if you ask me. He was born in 1992 vs. Jensen in 1993, so Jensen has some time to catch up. Bart is putting up PPG numbers in the AHL on a team that really doesn't have much going for them. At the same time, what Jensen is doing in the SEL is very impressive. Couple that with his size and he may have the potential to be a more dangerous NHL player. We'll have to wait and see.

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Old
12-19-2012, 01:24 PM
  #433
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
Baertschi is above Jensen, if you ask me. He was born in 1992 vs. Jensen in 1993, so Jensen has some time to catch up. Bart is putting up PPG numbers in the AHL on a team that really doesn't have much going for them. At the same time, what Jensen is doing in the SEL is very impressive. Couple that with his size and he may have the potential to be a more dangerous NHL player. We'll have to wait and see.
Abbotsford is a pretty good AHL team isn't it.

You helped my point though, nobody outside Baertschi has made me wish we had an earlier pick. From the 10-40 range, Jensen is clearly near the top of that group, for me anyways.

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Old
12-19-2012, 01:33 PM
  #434
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Jensen's brief stint in the AHL wasn't far behind what Baertschi is doing. 6 goals in 8 games...

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12-19-2012, 01:42 PM
  #435
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Abbotsford is a pretty good AHL team isn't it.

You helped my point though, nobody outside Baertschi has made me wish we had an earlier pick. From the 10-40 range, Jensen is clearly near the top of that group, for me anyways.
Not sure about that. I like Jensen, but I hold some other players or right around him in that range:

Brodin
Baertschi

Possibly Rattie, Klefbom, J.T. Miller, Philips. Maybe even Clendening as well, who's cleaning it up in the AHL this season. Danault is also turning out to be a little gem of a player.

And Saad is right below that range too.

The Blackhawks are pretty good, underrated drafters. McNeill, Danault, Clendening, and Saad in the top 60. Always had a solid track record of homegrown players, especially during the dark years.

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Old
12-19-2012, 01:45 PM
  #436
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Originally Posted by windflare View Post
Not sure about that. I like Jensen, but I hold some other players or right around him in that range:

Brodin
Baertschi

Possibly Rattie, Klefbom, J.T. Miller, Philips. Maybe even Clendening as well, who's cleaning it up in the AHL this season. Danault is also turning out to be a little gem of a player.

And Saad is right below that range too.

The Blackhawks are pretty good, underrated drafters. McNeill, Danault, Clendening, and Saad in the top 60. Always had a solid track record of homegrown players, especially during the dark years.
Clendening will be lucky to ever play a game in the NHL. Horrible defensively and has had some major luck on the PP. Every time Wolves play the Ice Hogs, it's a picnic in the offensive zone for the Wolves.

Miller is the only guy with decent AHL production right now. Phillips has 1 goal in 20-ish games and Saad has 5. Jensen scored 6 in 8 when he was a year younger, not to mention his current SEL play. I feel like you pretty much just looked up last year's junior production and then listed those that did better than Jensen. Otherwise I see no way that anyone who has watched them play even brings up Rattie and Danault in the same conversation.


Last edited by Tiranis: 12-19-2012 at 01:54 PM.
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Old
12-19-2012, 01:47 PM
  #437
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
edit * naturally smart isn't what i was trying to say. Dont really know what I was trying to say, just hoping he's dedicated to becoming as good as he can be.
Ability to effectively make, see and follow through on the opportunities before him?

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Old
12-19-2012, 01:57 PM
  #438
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Blomstrand still on the 1st line for his team and gets another goal. 4 goals in 8 games now. Also 1st PK and PP unit. You can see his goal here: http://www.almtuna.com/nyheter/aqn5hwsswc (at 0:08, he's #23)

There's also another nice play at around 0:32 by him as he just misses the net.


Last edited by Tiranis: 12-19-2012 at 02:04 PM.
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Old
12-19-2012, 02:26 PM
  #439
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Blomstrand still on the 1st line for his team and gets another goal. 4 goals in 8 games now. Also 1st PK and PP unit. You can see his goal here: http://www.almtuna.com/nyheter/aqn5hwsswc (at 0:08, he's #23)

There's also another nice play at around 0:32 by him as he just misses the net.
Too bad he couldn't have the made the Swedish World Junior Team. Feels like he should be older than 19, his opportunity is a nice surprise.

Hopefully he keeps getting better.

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Old
12-19-2012, 02:26 PM
  #440
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Originally Posted by I in the Eye View Post
Ability to effectively make, see and follow through on the opportunities before him?
Much better.

Something along those lines for sure.

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Old
12-19-2012, 02:35 PM
  #441
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Blomstrand still on the 1st line for his team and gets another goal. 4 goals in 8 games now. Also 1st PK and PP unit. You can see his goal here: http://www.almtuna.com/nyheter/aqn5hwsswc (at 0:08, he's #23)

There's also another nice play at around 0:32 by him as he just misses the net.
That's not SEL is it? Didn;t he play SEL last year?

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Old
12-19-2012, 02:40 PM
  #442
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That's not SEL is it? Didn;t he play SEL last year?
Allsvenskan, one step below. (I believe the bottom teams in the SEL get relegated to the Allsvenskan each year, and the top teams in the Allsvenskan take their place in the SEL...am I wrong?)

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Old
12-19-2012, 03:51 PM
  #443
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Originally Posted by Mr. Canucklehead View Post
Allsvenskan, one step below. (I believe the bottom teams in the SEL get relegated to the Allsvenskan each year, and the top teams in the Allsvenskan take their place in the SEL...am I wrong?)
Close. The bottom two SEL teams and top 4 Allsvenskan teams play a round robin series. Top two teams from that move up or stay in the SEL, the remainder stay in or get relegated down to the Allsvenskan.

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Old
12-19-2012, 04:07 PM
  #444
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All in all, the divide between the SEL and Allsvenskan is not that big. Last I checked Kopitar was barely above PPG and some other notable prospects were below. Blomstrand right now is producing comparably to Pontus Aberg and some other players in that league. It's a small sample size, but the 8 games have been very positive — besides, he must be doing something right to stay on the 1st line, 1st PK and 1st PP.

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Old
12-19-2012, 07:16 PM
  #445
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
What?

The only player I'd even consider over Jensen from that draft (taken outside the top 10) is Baertschi, and even then I think we needed the size and natural finishing Jensen provides more than a dynamic play maker (although Baertschi with kesler would be some kinda nice).

I don't think you can make a case for any pick 10-40 in that draft that I'd take over Jensen at this point.


Baertschi had significant concussion problems coming out of the World Junior tournament held in Calgary - and now he is on the shelf again with head injuries. Given this you wonder about his long term prospects. Durability has to be a consideration in drafting and partly explains why Eberle got moved down the draft order.

Not saying Jensen is better b/c I don't think he is, but the issues with Baertschi's health have to be factored in.

Might also point to the idea that the slighter European players are better off developing in Europe rather than the meat grinder the AHL can be. If they are more physically developed and contact saavy then they might be more prepared for North American hockey. Jenson got creamed in his brief stint in the AHL last year and Rodin has been banged up a lot suggesting the difficulty of young Euros in trying to develop n the AHL.

Can't be too definitive about that but certainly a consideration.

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12-19-2012, 07:37 PM
  #446
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Originally Posted by orcatown View Post
Baertschi had significant concussion problems coming out of the World Junior tournament held in Calgary - and now he is on the shelf again with head injuries. Given this you wonder about his long term prospects. Durability has to be a consideration in drafting and partly explains why Eberle got moved down the draft order.

Not saying Jensen is better b/c I don't think he is, but the issues with Baertschi's health have to be factored in.

Might also point to the idea that the slighter European players are better off developing in Europe rather than the meat grinder the AHL can be. If they are more physically developed and contact saavy then they might be more prepared for North American hockey. Jenson got creamed in his brief stint in the AHL last year and Rodin has been banged up a lot suggesting the difficulty of young Euros in trying to develop n the AHL.

Can't be too definitive about that but certainly a consideration.
Wait, but if you can't even handle the physicality in the AHL, how could you expect to be able to handle it in the big league?

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Old
12-19-2012, 08:12 PM
  #447
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Okay, got it. You want high IQ, high skill players who may be small and/or slow but can overcome their stature and skating because of their high IQ. I can understand the upside in that.

But you look at their drafts from 2006-2010 in the late rounds, this doesn't really "work" as you put it. Beyond your two examples, albeit a great one in Nyqvist, there is nothing you can call a true success. And look at their past two drafts. You can't say size isn't a factor anymore. They, like us, are shifting their focus.


True, they are shifting their focus. But unlike us, they've got a pretty good track record going the other way for decades.



Also, their bigger targets seem to be a little different than our own. We target a good size+skating combo, and deemphasize production, while they emphasize production and are more lax on skating. For instance, Tvrdon is the type of player I cannot see VAN draft, considering their emphasis on skating. Remains to be seen which factor is more important in the end.



Quote:
I believe stating that a better prospect (aka surer bet aka not McNally) would have a better pass and higher defensive IQ alludes to the belief that you think he does not make a good first pass. And previously you said his first pass would make or break him as a prospect, implying you do not have much faith in it right now at least.


Or it could be pointing out that McNally chooses to rush first, thereby reducing the need to pass first. He can pass, but will he be able to rely on it as a primary option?



Quote:
Ehrhoff wasn't the player he is now when he was 20. He learned to adapt, just like Subban did. They became smarter with what works and what doesn't through experience. Why exactly are we trying to force McNally to become a pass-first player? He is not afraid to pass when the option is open. I'd like to highlight with finality that he is not adverse to passing. Ehrhoff rushed the puck often as well and fit into our system seamlessly. So i am just not understanding why McNally must change or he is not accepted.


Why must we target only one type of player? Why can't we have target the McEnenys and be able to target a McNally type once every few years? We have a lot in McEneny's mold - good skating, smart, two-way D that aren't that physical but show some average/above average offensive skills; Tanev, Corrado, Price, McEneny, Tommernes, Andersson, Hutton. Is it really a detriment to us to invest a late round pick in a highly talented, highly skilled defenseman with good size but is still working through their defense? I don't see the harm or the lament.


I see the harm in taking chances if that is all this team is seen to do. There are steady guys, but none yet that have converted their games to the NHL level. Until such time, we have to question even the steadier options. By comparison, the rover seems even more out of place. Look at how people are viewing Connauten now: His NHL upside is very much in doubt because he's seen as a one trick pony. Does he have a defensive game to fall back on? Nope. The same could happen with McNally.



I'd rather the Canucks pack the system with high percentage, smart prospects than take chances on rovers that will have difficulty adjusting. But that's me.

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Old
12-19-2012, 08:35 PM
  #448
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Sweatt just got a major hit to the head and last I checked he wasn't a "euro". Concussion in the AHL have nothing to do with your nationality. Lots of Canadian players have their careers ruined by them too.

Baertschi's injury history is a big question mark but I don't see how that follows into the rest of the argument about nationalities and what not. He's a smaller player that goes into tough areas, that's what happens to those types of guys and you have to be a very durable player to withstand it. Is he?

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12-19-2012, 08:53 PM
  #449
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I'd rather the Canucks pack the system with high percentage, smart prospects than take chances on rovers that will have difficulty adjusting. But that's me.
You still get Taylor Ellington, Daniel Rahimi and Alex Friesen's when you look for smart, safe players...

I would prefer Gillis swing for the fences with highly skilled, dynamic guys like McNally than draft safe players with limited upside. Detroit won championships on the backs of 2 high risk, high reward late rd picks in Datsyuk and Zetterberg...

Gillis went with the safer Sauve over the riskier Justin Schultz in the 2nd rd 4 years ago and that could haunt this franchise for over a decade. Playing a 'safe' game doesn't translate to it being a 'safe' pick.

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12-19-2012, 09:03 PM
  #450
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
You still get Taylor Ellington, Daniel Rahimi and Alex Friesen's when you look for smart, safe players...

I would prefer Gillis swing for the fences with highly skilled, dynamic guys like McNally than draft safe players with limited upside. Detroit won championships on the backs of 2 high risk, high reward late rd picks in Datsyuk and Zetterberg...

Gillis went with the safer Sauve over the riskier Justin Schultz in the 2nd rd 4 years ago and that could haunt this franchise for over a decade. Playing a 'safe' game doesn't translate to it being a 'safe' pick.
IMO playing it safe is only beneficial when your picking in the top 15 of the first round and you expect the safe player to become a effective player at the least. After that, its all crap shoot, and might as well take the most talented player all the time.

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