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Lockout V: Take the Long Way Home

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Old
12-19-2012, 02:22 PM
  #401
xdl1
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
Wow, I disagree with 100% of what you wrote.

What do the players want: a fair opportunity to make money

What to the owners want: a fair opportunity to make money

union busting...? If the NHLPA would agree to a CBA, the union would be just fine! and they would still get paid big $$$. Tell me that isn't true.
Yes, union busting. It has nothing to do with the NHL, and it has nothing to do with sports negotiation. This kind of thing has been going on since the days of the titans in the American industrial revolution. Huge corporate entities with more money at their disposal than you could count in a lifetime forcing entire classes of people to cater to their demands by withholding their ability to earn wages.

It's not about the how much the players make. It's the idea that with each successive negotiation, they will be forced to take significantly less, regardless of the success of the ownership. It happens in all forms of negotiation, and it's taken on a totally new life within the last 10 years or so.

You're correct, they would still make a boatload of money should they agree today to terms. That's not my argument, that's yours. If you want to disagree, you're welcome to do so, but my argument to yours is apples and oranges.

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12-19-2012, 02:25 PM
  #402
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I guess that depends of if you want to pay $60 or more to see one of the best hockey players in the world vs one of the best hockey players in the world or one of the best hockey teams in the world vs one of the best hockey teams in the world. You will never see 2 great teams play each other in a league with parity.
I thought the Penguins vs. Red Wings back-to-back SCF's in the late 2000's were pretty good.

There aren't a lot of leagues where you're going to see teams composed of all-elite players playing against each other. That really only happens in the olympics and international competitions, and the 'non-games' that are all-star games I suppose. I mean you could argue that even in the parity-free EPL you're not seeing 'the best in the world vs. the best in the world', because a lot of talent is in other leagues.

If you can't enjoy a league with parity, I don't know what to say. The insinuation is that you can't tolerate watching play that isn't the 'best of the best'.

I for one feel the NHL for the most part delivers a consistent, solid level of entertainment, regardless of which two teams are on the ice. I prefer that.

That comes from a love of sports, and being able to watch a 'competitive' game, even if it's not an 'all-star' game. I can watch junior hockey and AHL hockey. I can watch amateur boxing and MMA. I can watch soccer at levels lower than premier league. I can watch the CFL,and college football.

And I pay $82 a ticket to watch the Jets play, because I know for the most part it will be a competitive affair.

Also, note that in your league with no parity, you will still never be able to pay $60 to see two-great teams play, unless you live in one of those 'great cities', or are willing to travel. I guess you do, huh? If you don't live in one of those 'great cities', then you basically get relegated to non-contender status for eternity. Fun.

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12-19-2012, 02:25 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by xdl1 View Post
Yes, union busting. It has nothing to do with the NHL, and it has nothing to do with sports negotiation. This kind of thing has been going on since the days of the titans in the American industrial revolution. Huge corporate entities with more money at their disposal than you could count in a lifetime forcing entire classes of people to cater to their demands by withholding their ability to earn wages.

It's not about the how much the players make. It's the idea that with each successive negotiation, they will be forced to take significantly less, regardless of the success of the ownership. It happens in all forms of negotiation, and it's taken on a totally new life within the last 10 years or so.

You're correct, they would still make a boatload of money should they agree today to terms. That's not my argument, that's yours. If you want to disagree, you're welcome to do so, but my argument to yours is apples and oranges.
Those poor Union brothers sure are getting hammered...

The only people damaging the Union are the Unions own leaders.

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12-19-2012, 02:46 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by xdl1 View Post
Yes, union busting. It has nothing to do with the NHL, and it has nothing to do with sports negotiation. This kind of thing has been going on since the days of the titans in the American industrial revolution. Huge corporate entities with more money at their disposal than you could count in a lifetime forcing entire classes of people to cater to their demands by withholding their ability to earn wages.

It's not about the how much the players make. It's the idea that with each successive negotiation, they will be forced to take significantly less, regardless of the success of the ownership. It happens in all forms of negotiation, and it's taken on a totally new life within the last 10 years or so.

You're correct, they would still make a boatload of money should they agree today to terms. That's not my argument, that's yours. If you want to disagree, you're welcome to do so, but my argument to yours is apples and oranges.
Haha why do I think of a bunch of Hippies when I read your post.

Rage against the machine!
Fight the man!
Watch out for big brother!

I see it more as a fat spoiled child that needs an attitude adjustment. Lesson 1 in 2004 didn't get the point across. They almost had it.. then they fired Paul Kelly and went into another tauntrum.

Another lesson is needed.

You say.. we can't just keep giving!

I say. They need to find balance.

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12-19-2012, 02:48 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by xdl1 View Post
I've gotten out of the specifics on this lately, but it's become very clear what this whole charade has been about: union busting. This isn't about solving fundamental flaws, or costs being too high. It's about busting the union and taking as much as you can get, whether you need it or not, for the simple reasoning of "because you have the leverage" to do it.

Don Fehr is a great choice to combat it, but the best case scenario for the players unfortunately ends in a murder suicide on the NHL league as an entity.



How can this possibly be a best case scenario? Isn't it a lot closer to cutting off your nose to spite your face?

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Old
12-19-2012, 03:01 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by FanSince2012 View Post
They didn't boo in L.A.

But then, they don't know jack about hockey.
LA fans debated if they were going to boo him. They decided that winning the cup was a great day and booing would just be wrong. They did boo him during the draft and other times he has been in LA.

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Old
12-19-2012, 03:11 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by xdl1 View Post
I've gotten out of the specifics on this lately, but it's become very clear what this whole charade has been about: union busting. This isn't about solving fundamental flaws, or costs being too high. It's about busting the union and taking as much as you can get, whether you need it or not, for the simple reasoning of "because you have the leverage" to do it.

Don Fehr is a great choice to combat it, but the best case scenario for the players unfortunately ends in a murder suicide on the NHL league as an entity.
This statement is wrong on both accounts. The league must have the union. Their lawsuit states that without a CBA agreed to by the PA the league can not continue. All contracts would be void is them saying the PA must stay together. If they wanted to bust the union Fehr would have no leverage against them. The DOI would be in their favor.
As far as Fehr being the best person to fight for the players to save the union, that is wrong as well. Fehr was hired to get the current players as much money as possible and to make sure the players didnt "lose" He has failed but still hopes to srape as many nickels as possible, while dollars are thrown away

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Old
12-19-2012, 03:13 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by xdl1 View Post
I've gotten out of the specifics on this lately, but it's become very clear what this whole charade has been about: union busting. This isn't about solving fundamental flaws, or costs being too high. It's about busting the union and taking as much as you can get, whether you need it or not, for the simple reasoning of "because you have the leverage" to do it.

Don Fehr is a great choice to combat it, but the best case scenario for the players unfortunately ends in a murder suicide on the NHL league as an entity.
Obviously pro-union without a lot of supported argument. Refer to vid please.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5ZYnZGaCIk

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Old
12-19-2012, 03:35 PM
  #409
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Fans Loss??? Where?

This lockout has been the best thing for the fans anyways..(Not so much for the business)...the first 2-3 months of the season is boring and meaningless hockey. The All-Star game is nothing more than a bunch of superstars playing pick up. The Winter Classic is a bit of a loss, but seeing as Toronto will have another brutal team they saved us from watching the biggest Winter Blowout.

Hockey from Christmas on is where the REAL hockey is. It is a dog fight for who is going to move up in the standings and who is gonna drop out. The season will start and in a month we will have a trade deadline with lots of action because of the new CBA regulations. RFA/UFA's will have to be signed immediately to fill roster spots and in 4 months the playoffs will start. All the great moments of the season are condensed into a small amount of time...non-stop action...I say THANKS to the NHL/NHLPA!!!

From a FANS perspective what has the NHL really cost the FANS? Pre-season garbage games, early season meaningless games, boring All-Star game, shorter season=cheaper center ice package....?

The only people who have really LOST are the employees of the NHL, Arena Employees and Businesses associated with NHL....Fans have LOST nothing! So quit complaining and be happy that the NHL/NHLPA saved you all the extra filler moments of the season! The left us with nothing but the best!

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12-19-2012, 03:44 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by Wings View Post

I for one feel the NHL for the most part delivers a consistent, solid level of entertainment, regardless of which two teams are on the ice. I prefer that.

T
Really? IMO, NHL delivers good or great games or play-off series from time to time, but a lot of games are pretty boring or even totally uneventful. Some teams are almost unwatchable if you don't care about the outcome of the game.

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Old
12-19-2012, 03:45 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
It isn't that I have lost faith in my team. It is that I have lost faith in the NHL. Why is that so hard to understand? Detroit built their cup championships largely through the draft. Federov, Yzerman, Lidstrom, Konstantinov, Osgood, Datsyuk, Zetterberg as well as many roll players were all drafted by the Wings. They accented with high profile free agent signings such as Hull or Shanahan.
So why are you so convinced they're incapable of doing it again?

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Old
12-19-2012, 03:51 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by echlfreak View Post
This lockout has been the best thing for the fans anyways..(Not so much for the business)...the first 2-3 months of the season is boring and meaningless hockey. The All-Star game is nothing more than a bunch of superstars playing pick up. The Winter Classic is a bit of a loss, but seeing as Toronto will have another brutal team they saved us from watching the biggest Winter Blowout.

Hockey from Christmas on is where the REAL hockey is. It is a dog fight for who is going to move up in the standings and who is gonna drop out. The season will start and in a month we will have a trade deadline with lots of action because of the new CBA regulations. RFA/UFA's will have to be signed immediately to fill roster spots and in 4 months the playoffs will start. All the great moments of the season are condensed into a small amount of time...non-stop action...I say THANKS to the NHL/NHLPA!!!

From a FANS perspective what has the NHL really cost the FANS? Pre-season garbage games, early season meaningless games, boring All-Star game, shorter season=cheaper center ice package....?

The only people who have really LOST are the employees of the NHL, Arena Employees and Businesses associated with NHL....Fans have LOST nothing! So quit complaining and be happy that the NHL/NHLPA saved you all the extra filler moments of the season! The left us with nothing but the best!
ive been waiting for the banner hanging ceremony for over 6 months

as frustrated as i am with where things are at right now, i still have hope that the season can and will be saved

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Old
12-19-2012, 03:57 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by theMajor View Post
ive been waiting for the banner hanging ceremony for over 6 months

as frustrated as i am with where things are at right now, i still have hope that the season can and will be saved



You are "frustrated" and "waiting"...but haven't lost a thing! Tired of hearing about FANS complaining!

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Old
12-19-2012, 04:00 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by xdl1 View Post
Yes, union busting. It has nothing to do with the NHL, and it has nothing to do with sports negotiation. This kind of thing has been going on since the days of the titans in the American industrial revolution. Huge corporate entities with more money at their disposal than you could count in a lifetime forcing entire classes of people to cater to their demands by withholding their ability to earn wages.

It's not about the how much the players make. It's the idea that with each successive negotiation, they will be forced to take significantly less, regardless of the success of the ownership. It happens in all forms of negotiation, and it's taken on a totally new life within the last 10 years or so.

You're correct, they would still make a boatload of money should they agree today to terms. That's not my argument, that's yours. If you want to disagree, you're welcome to do so, but my argument to yours is apples and oranges.

...and keep an eye out for those black helicopters, ok?


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Old
12-19-2012, 04:12 PM
  #415
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ive been waiting for the banner hanging ceremony for over 6 months
I feel your pain. We won the Cup in June of '04 and had to wait the entire lockout year to get ours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by echlfreak View Post
You are "frustrated" and "waiting"...but haven't lost a thing! Tired of hearing about FANS complaining!
We've lost a number of games we could have attended to date. For those of us who attend those games, it's more than just showing up, it's shared time with friends, supporting local businesses around the arena, etc. Just because you don't miss the games or don't feel they're entertaining doesn't make it so.

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12-19-2012, 04:33 PM
  #416
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I'm really over this whole lock out thing. It's getting ridiculous.

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12-19-2012, 04:44 PM
  #417
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I'm really over this whole lock out thing. It's getting ridiculous.
I think that's why Fehr's asking for a shorter CBA...lockout becomes a much less automatic option with 2 long lockouts fresh in the fan's memories....I expect a huge decrease in fan support/sponsor money after this one, if they go 3 in a row, the league is done

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12-19-2012, 05:09 PM
  #418
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I think that's why Fehr's asking for a shorter CBA...lockout becomes a much less automatic option with 2 long lockouts fresh in the fan's memories....I expect a huge decrease in fan support/sponsor money after this one, if they go 3 in a row, the league is done
No Fehr was specifically asking for 5 years on the CBA in order to use the leagues 100th anniversary as leverage the next go round. He dressed it up as an every generation of players should get a chance to negotiate a new deal BS. Mr. Work Stoppage has never ever even considered not having a work stoppage unless he manages to take the owners for everything they're worth before the stoppage happens. Donald Fehr is more than happy to participate in the killing of a league.

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12-19-2012, 05:14 PM
  #419
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I feel your pain. We won the Cup in June of '04 and had to wait the entire lockout year to get ours.



We've lost a number of games we could have attended to date. For those of us who attend those games, it's more than just showing up, it's shared time with friends, supporting local businesses around the arena, etc. Just because you don't miss the games or don't feel they're entertaining doesn't make it so.
there are plenty of other places that you could share time with friends other than a hockey game. and a lot of other local businesses that you could support.

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12-19-2012, 05:16 PM
  #420
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Originally Posted by tantalum View Post
No Fehr was specifically asking for 5 years on the CBA in order to use the leagues 100th anniversary as leverage the next go round. He dressed it up as an every generation of players should get a chance to negotiate a new deal BS. Mr. Work Stoppage has never ever even considered not having a work stoppage unless he manages to take the owners for everything they're worth before the stoppage happens. Donald Fehr is more than happy to participate in the killing of a league.
In addition It's quite possible that they would just be getting to 50% by then anyways with his lock the cap and limit escrow bs. Or not even at 50% if the damage is really significant.

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12-19-2012, 05:34 PM
  #421
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No Fehr was specifically asking for 5 years on the CBA in order to use the leagues 100th anniversary as leverage the next go round. He dressed it up as an every generation of players should get a chance to negotiate a new deal BS. Mr. Work Stoppage has never ever even considered not having a work stoppage unless he manages to take the owners for everything they're worth before the stoppage happens. Donald Fehr is more than happy to participate in the killing of a league.
Work stoppage?????

You may think the players are spoiled and overpaid -- that's fine, they probably are.

However, in 2005 the players agreed to a Cap and took and instant 24% pay cut. The fact that worked out to their advantage is more a testament to the owner's lack of foresight than anything else.

Now in 2012 -- at the first opportunity since -- the owner's first offer was another 24% cut (57% to 43% share).

I don't care what you make a year -- $40K, $400K, $4M, or $4B -- if someone demands you take a 24% cut every time the deal governing your so called "partnership" comes up for re-negotiation expect things to get ugly.

PARTICULARLY given the fact that the owners can't even guarantee the league problems will be solved with the proposal they first came out with. Instead of being hard *****, they should have shown some humility and said "we all have to cut" -- you help us, we'll put in some meaningful revenue sharing, and we'll work together to ensure we have longterm success and continued growth.

MOD

The Work Stoppage is due to the fact that Bettman and the owners don't know jack diddly about how to run a league -- despite $3.3B in revenues.


Last edited by mouser: 12-20-2012 at 12:22 AM. Reason: Not necessary
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Old
12-19-2012, 05:40 PM
  #422
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there are plenty of other places that you could share time with friends other than a hockey game. and a lot of other local businesses that you could support.
We all have season tickets which are already paid for, so at least my entertainment budget is already pretty much gone. I'm not sure what else we could afford to do! As for the other local businesses, those probably aren't being as damaged by the lockout as the ones we'd be frequenting before & after the games.

I'm happy for ECHLfreak that he (or she, whichever the case may be) is fine with missing the games. That's great. I wish it didn't matter to me. But my team is a huge part of my life and I *do* miss the games and the activities surrounding them. Sadly for me, someone coming on a message board and telling me I'm wrong and I should be happy about no hockey isn't going to change my feelings on the matter.

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12-19-2012, 05:46 PM
  #423
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there are plenty of other places that you could share time with friends other than a hockey game. and a lot of other local businesses that you could support.
Well, 'getting together to watch a game', is one of the best excuses for getting together. I mean you could also get together 'to have some drinks', or 'to have dinner', and you could argue you don't need an excuse to socialize. But it helps to have some sort of context for a gathering aside from just eating and drinking. And not much beats 'getting together for the game' as far as casual entertainment goes.

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12-19-2012, 05:54 PM
  #424
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No Fehr was specifically asking for 5 years on the CBA in order to use the leagues 100th anniversary as leverage the next go round. He dressed it up as an every generation of players should get a chance to negotiate a new deal BS. Mr. Work Stoppage has never ever even considered not having a work stoppage unless he manages to take the owners for everything they're worth before the stoppage happens. Donald Fehr is more than happy to participate in the killing of a league.
I was refering to the 8/6 v. 10 deal (the 5 year thing was removed in the last offer), 10 years from now, this lockout may be generally forgotten/thought of about as much as the 95 lockout, 6-8 year from now, it will be at least as fresh as 2004. A lockout was basically a foregone conclusion this time around (though we expected it to be shorter), that may not be the case next time which in turn would give the players more leverage


Last edited by falconski: 12-19-2012 at 05:59 PM.
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12-19-2012, 06:03 PM
  #425
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So why are you so convinced they're incapable of doing it again?
I am not.

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