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Old
12-18-2012, 01:07 PM
  #826
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
Same, sort of weird to see him left off when Jokinen passed Raleigh. Carson's listed twice as well on the second and third teams, do we get another?


I missed about half of the final least favorite choices forgetting they were drafted.
thanks for pointing that out!

I'll fix it now. Stumpel gets in. You do get another.

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12-18-2012, 01:08 PM
  #827
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Didnt even see Georges or remember him being picked. Would have probably had him as number one.
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Same, except maybe not #1, but I would have picked him in my top-5.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
Same, sort of weird to see him left off when Jokinen passed Raleigh. Carson's listed twice as well on the second and third teams, do we get another?


I missed about half of the final least favorite choices forgetting they were drafted.
How do you guys vote? Whenever I vote for the All Star teams, I always scan the roster thread. You guys vote for the All Star teams based off the main draft thread? I would never remember who is in the top 6, who is in the bottom 6 if I did that!

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12-18-2012, 01:11 PM
  #828
Mike Farkas
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I use the roster/assassination threads. And just bricked out on seeing Gorgeous Gorges there I guess...

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12-18-2012, 01:13 PM
  #829
Rob Scuderi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
How do you guys vote? Whenever I vote for the All Star teams, I always scan the roster thread. You guys vote for the All Star teams based off the main draft thread? I would never remember who is in the top 6, who is in the bottom 6 if I did that!
I just copied my ranks from my longlist to do the voting so some of the names I didn't have it on it got lost in the shuffle. Hamhuis for example was a name I didn't have on my longlist but made my top 10 after he seeing how he stood up on this level, but the Gorges and Averys sort of just got read when they were picked and then forgotten about.

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12-18-2012, 01:14 PM
  #830
seventieslord
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I always use the roster threads.

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12-18-2012, 01:25 PM
  #831
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I mean I used the roster and assassination posts making sense of bottom/top six guys, I just must not have looked at the spares close enough.

And if I didn't get Bullard not side-by-side with Jokinen, I really don't get Stumpel over him.

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12-18-2012, 01:35 PM
  #832
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
How do you guys vote? Whenever I vote for the All Star teams, I always scan the roster thread. You guys vote for the All Star teams based off the main draft thread? I would never remember who is in the top 6, who is in the bottom 6 if I did that!
I looked at roster threads, simply just missed him or didnt notice his name.

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Old
12-18-2012, 02:00 PM
  #833
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Least Popular Picks:

Since this is a category where you can choose anyone in the entire draft, it's harder for players to accumulate a large number of votes. Here are the ones named 3-5 times, in order of how unpopular they were:

1. Sean Avery (MAC)
2. Anson Carter (MAC)
3. Vladislav Tretiak, Coach (BUF)
4. Roman Cechmanek (UTA)
5. Jonathan Cheechoo (BEL)
6. Martin Erat (BEL)

Seven other players were named twice. 17 more were named once apiece.
I disagree with those last 3. Cechmanek had a peak that was high enough(despite how short it was) to warrant selection here. Cechmanek is a bad pick in the AAA draft being a 3-time top 5 goalie in a deep talent pool, and Bill Barilko belongs in the ATD for playing 5 seasons, not doing anything of note, and dying? There's some real modern bias going here where the stigmas attached to players are getting in people's ways of realizing their actual accomplishments. Cheechoo is the same thing. Same thing can be seen by the fact that nowhere does Mike Ribeiro even get a mention in AS voting, despite being an elite offensive force at this level.

The one, by far, that I disagree with most is Erat. He's a remarkably consistent offensive player that has a higher adjusted PPG than Olli Jokinen(albeit in about 400 less games). His adjusted PPG is .716 over 687 games!! He's a great spare. He doesn't have a great peak, but he's a sure bet for 50 points every single year, and that's not something a lot of players at this level can say.

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12-18-2012, 02:27 PM
  #834
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
I disagree with those last 3. Cechmanek had a peak that was high enough(despite how short it was) to warrant selection here. Cechmanek is a bad pick in the AAA draft being a 3-time top 5 goalie in a deep talent pool, and Bill Barilko belongs in the ATD for playing 5 seasons, not doing anything of note, and dying? There's some real modern bias going here where the stigmas attached to players are getting in people's ways of realizing their actual accomplishments. Cheechoo is the same thing.
Well, the thing is there are people who think that Cechmanekís high peak was a complete and utter fraud,

Quote:
Same thing can be seen by the fact that nowhere does Mike Ribeiro even get a mention in AS voting, despite being an elite offensive force at this level.
There are 24 top-6 centers in this draft, and about a dozen of them are practically interchangeable, and only 7 made the all-star teams. Olczyk, Ribeiro, Bullard and Ruzicka were just a little bit behind 7th-place Stumpel.

Quote:
The one, by far, that I disagree with most is Erat. He's a remarkably consistent offensive player that has a higher adjusted PPG than Olli Jokinen(albeit in about 400 less games). His adjusted PPG is .716 over 687 games!! He's a great spare. He doesn't have a great peak, but he's a sure bet for 50 points every single year, and that's not something a lot of players at this level can say.
Maybe the guys were a little hard on Erat. Heís probably one of only a few players riding an 8-year 49+ point streak. *

At the same time, heís been a mid-level contributor (usually 3rd-5th on the team aside from last 2 years) to a mediocre offense. And without some kind of a peak, can you really trust him on a scoring line when other peoplesí lines are full of guys with proven ability to score 60-80 points? And what else does he do to make himself useful on the other lines?

I donít think he ďhad no business being pickedĒ but I think heís more of a AA steady 2nd line guy if anything.

*Edit: just checked, the list is just 14 names long.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...order_by=goals

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12-18-2012, 03:15 PM
  #835
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
I disagree with those last 3. Cechmanek had a peak that was high enough(despite how short it was) to warrant selection here. Cechmanek is a bad pick in the AAA draft being a 3-time top 5 goalie in a deep talent pool, and Bill Barilko belongs in the ATD for playing 5 seasons, not doing anything of note, and dying? There's some real modern bias going here where the stigmas attached to players are getting in people's ways of realizing their actual accomplishments. Cheechoo is the same thing. Same thing can be seen by the fact that nowhere does Mike Ribeiro even get a mention in AS voting, despite being an elite offensive force at this level.

The one, by far, that I disagree with most is Erat. He's a remarkably consistent offensive player that has a higher adjusted PPG than Olli Jokinen(albeit in about 400 less games). His adjusted PPG is .716 over 687 games!! He's a great spare. He doesn't have a great peak, but he's a sure bet for 50 points every single year, and that's not something a lot of players at this level can say.
I think LeafLander(?) got heavily criticized when he picked Barilko in the ATD. Rightfully so.

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12-18-2012, 03:18 PM
  #836
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
I think LeafLander(?) got heavily criticized when he picked Barilko in the ATD. Rightfully so.
Itís only in the last couple of drafts that we began to appropriately question why Barilko has historically been taken as high as he has been. But LL doesnít really read that stuff and learn from what picks are praised and maligned, so he took him probably a few hundred picks higher than anyone else would have.

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12-18-2012, 03:37 PM
  #837
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Itís only in the last couple of drafts that we began to appropriately question why Barilko has historically been taken as high as he has been. But LL doesnít really read that stuff and learn from what picks are praised and maligned, so he took him probably a few hundred picks higher than anyone else would have.
I question if hes an ATDer at all (Barilko not LL).

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Old
12-18-2012, 04:13 PM
  #838
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
I disagree with those last 3. Cechmanek had a peak that was high enough(despite how short it was) to warrant selection here. Cechmanek is a bad pick in the AAA draft being a 3-time top 5 goalie in a deep talent pool, and Bill Barilko belongs in the ATD for playing 5 seasons, not doing anything of note, and dying? There's some real modern bias going here where the stigmas attached to players are getting in people's ways of realizing their actual accomplishments. Cheechoo is the same thing. Same thing can be seen by the fact that nowhere does Mike Ribeiro even get a mention in AS voting, despite being an elite offensive force at this level.
70s asked me to vote for for AS Teams, so I did. But I didn't vote for standings. And I agree with basically everything you say here. 20 years from now, will anyone consider a guy who led the NHL in goals a bad pick at the AAA level, even if he obviously leached off his center? I doubt it. Not that Cheechoo is a great pick or anything.

I voted Ribeiro an allstar, though I'm fond of him... actually I can't stand him, but I'm fond of the ATD version of him, since winning MLD2011 with him.

On the other hand, it's a lot easier to vote for modern players you know are scrubs. An older player might be a scrub, but you might just assume you don't know something about him and not vote him a bad pick!

Quote:
The one, by far, that I disagree with most is Erat. He's a remarkably consistent offensive player that has a higher adjusted PPG than Olli Jokinen(albeit in about 400 less games). His adjusted PPG is .716 over 687 games!! He's a great spare. He doesn't have a great peak, but he's a sure bet for 50 points every single year, and that's not something a lot of players at this level can say.
On the other hand, I voted Erat a bad pick. Though since I didn't follow the draft as closely as you guys, I was at a disadvantage here. I knew what players I liked, but not necessarily what ones I didn't like. (Well, I didn't have trouble voting Gorges 1st)

That said, is the case for Erat just that he played a long time on a scoring line? Did he ever actually stand out? Maybe I missed the boat here, but just playing a long time on a scoring line, a player is going to pick up points, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
I question if hes an ATDer at all (Barilko not LL).
I would not select him in the ATD

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Old
12-18-2012, 04:51 PM
  #839
seventieslord
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I question if hes an ATDer at all (Barilko not LL).
I question that too. And the answer is no!

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Old
12-19-2012, 12:25 AM
  #840
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CAREER REGULAR SEASON STATISTICS

SEASON TEAM GP G A P +/- PIM PPG SHG GWG S S%
1996-1997 KITCHENER DUTCHMEN-OHA-B 43 35 41 76 33
1997-1998 BELLEVILLE BULLS-OHL 64 31 45 76 62
1998-1999 BELLEVILLE BULLS-OHL 63 35 47 82 23 74 12 3 1
1998-1999 BELLEVILLE BULLS-M-CUP 2 2 0 2 0
1999-2000 BELLEVILLE BULLS-OHL 66 45 46 91 25 102 13 3 6
2000-2001 KENTUCKY THOROUGHBLADES-AHL 75 32 34 66 16 63 10 0 1 214 15.0
2001-2002 CLEVELAND BARONS-AHL 53 21 25 46 -6 54 7 2 3

2002-2003 SHARKS 66 9 7 16 -5 39 0 0 3 94 9.6
2002-2003 CLEVELAND BARONS-AHL 9 3 4 7 0 16 1 0 1 30 10.0
2003-2004 SHARKS 81 28 19 47 5 33 8 0 9 175 16.0
2004-2005 HV 71 JONKOPING-SWEDEN 20 5 0 5 10
2005-2006 SHARKS 82 56 37 93 23 58 24 2 11 317 17.7
2006-2007 SHARKS 76 37 32 69 11 69 15 0 5 250 14.8
2007-2008 SHARKS 69 23 14 37 11 46 10 0 4 220 10.5
2008-2009 SHARKS 66 12 17 29 -3 59 5 1 4 152 7.9
2009-2010 SENATORS 61 5 9 14 -13 20 0 0 0 117 4.3
2009-2010 BINGHAMTON SENATORS-AHL 25 8 6 14 -7 37 1 1 1
2010-2011 WORCESTER SHARKS-AHL 55 18 29 47 -11 14 6 0 2 170 10.6
2011-2012 PEORIA RIVERMEN-AHL 70 25 31 56 3 24 5 0 5 205 12.2

NHL TOTALS 501 170 135 305 29 324 62 3 36 1,325 12.8
http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id...vid=nhl-search

The biggest All-Star snub wasn't even mentioned and I won't either, because I want him in the future. Cheechoo had 1 great season and was an excellent, knowledgeable choice by the voters.

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Old
12-19-2012, 10:06 AM
  #841
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Typical pro-Montreal bias. Zajac > Plekanec
Strongly disagree.

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12-19-2012, 10:30 AM
  #842
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Strongly disagree.
he used the sarcasm emoticon...

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12-19-2012, 05:29 PM
  #843
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Strongly disagree.
To be honest, I think they are probably pretty close as players. Close enough where a detailed analysis would be needed, and I don't feel like it. I'm not sure if Plek had a defining playoffs like Zajac in 2012, though he was quite good in the playoffs in 2008 and 2010.

Plek obviously has an advantage in terms of getting recognized by the team he plays on, which is where my snide comment came from.

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Old
12-19-2012, 05:34 PM
  #844
Mike Farkas
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Zajac is one of the league's more underrated players and plays a pretty similar game to Turtleneck Plek. I have no idea what the stats say, but in my mind Plek is just about Zajac in terms of two-way centermen. I like both of their games a lot.

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12-19-2012, 05:42 PM
  #845
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Zajac is one of the league's more underrated players and plays a pretty similar game to Turtleneck Plek. I have no idea what the stats say, but in my mind Plek is just about Zajac in terms of two-way centermen. I like both of their games a lot.
One thing that Zajac has on Plekanec is faceoff ability. Other than his rookie year, Zajac has been at 51% or above on faceoffs, and has been at 57, 55, 52, 53, and 51% every other year besides his rookie year at 46%. Faceoffs are especially difficult for young guys to adjust to(Crosby and Malkin were both terrible at the beginning of their careers), but Zajac has been very strong and only getting better.

On the other hand, Plekanec has floated between 48-50% for most of his career.

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12-19-2012, 05:51 PM
  #846
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
One thing that Zajac has on Plekanec is faceoff ability. Other than his rookie year, Zajac has been at 51% or above on faceoffs, and has been at 57, 55, 52, 53, and 51% every other year besides his rookie year at 46%. Faceoffs are especially difficult for young guys to adjust to(Crosby and Malkin were both terrible at the beginning of their careers), but Zajac has been very strong and only getting better.

On the other hand, Plekanec has floated between 48-50% for most of his career.
What's especially impressive is that Zajac has taken most of the "tough" faceoffs on the Devils since John Madden left, since the rest of the Devils centers are terrible at faceoffs. Bad faceoff ability is the one thing that keeps Elias from being a top-notch two-way center.

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12-26-2012, 03:07 PM
  #847
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Get your series arguments in, fellas. It's almost time for voting.

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Old
01-03-2013, 05:56 PM
  #848
BillyShoe1721
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When did we vote? I don't recall receiving a PM or seeing a post about it...

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01-03-2013, 06:27 PM
  #849
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Billy - my apologies. It looks like I somehow omitted you from the voting PM for standings and all-star teams. I re-used that list for the first and second voting reminders I sent for the preliminaries. I never realized my mistake sooner, because you obviously voted on the regular season.

Hopefully you weren't going to vote for Birmingham. that's the only series you could have made a difference in...

This won't happen again. I'll make sure you're included for the quarters, semis and finals.

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Old
01-11-2013, 02:39 PM
  #850
TheDevilMadeMe
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If you guys still care about finishing this thing, you should probably vote on the playoffs now. I can't take the votes, since my PM box is filling up with votes I'm taking for other things.

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