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Old
12-19-2012, 06:29 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
Interesting idea. I do think we would need to give up quite a bit more than B prospects to get him though. Like Zibabnejad and/or Noesen. No way we get away with giving up a Da Costa or Boroweicki as the main piece in the trade.

That said... It could be a deal that makes a ton of sense for both sides. Calgary desperately needs young and good prospects and we have too many almost. We have tons of cap space. I would trade Zibanejad, Pumpel, and Da Costa for Jaybo. Or something of similar value.

So you get Jaybo and you can fill a good 23-24 minutes of ice time (down from his 26/27 minutes he gets now... hopefully he improves?)

Karlsson/Methot
Gonchar/JayBo
Phillips/Lundin/Weircoch/Benoit
You are right insofar as it will require more than my initial offer to land Bouwmeester.

One thing to consider is that the consensus is that he is overpaid by about 2 million per. That salary dump component weighs against the return Calgary will garner to a certain extent.

Additionally, they will demand a defenseman to step in and take minutes, in order to partially mitigate the loss of Bouwmeester. I see three options; Ceci, Wiercioch, and Boroweicki. I would be open to including any of those three in a package.

Plenty of forwards to choose from, but the forward included would depend on the defenseman included.

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12-20-2012, 06:20 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
That's the kind of package you give for Rick Nash, not for Jay Bouwmeester... The 2 players don't really have a great contract but Jaybo's is even worse
Prospects are generally overrated. We actually have too many forwards to likely make our roster. Bouwmeester is a proven quality defenceman. He is always near the top in minutes played in the NHL. I don't think he is great... but great defencemen almost NEVER get traded.. unless their is a big falling out like with Pronger a couple of times.

Nash's contract was far worse and Columbus got proven NHLer's. Look at how much we had to give up to get Methot. A quality 50 point physical your NHLer... Defenceman cost a ton in trade and as UFA's they always get overpaid. IF the Senator's want to get a quality defenceman in trade... IF.. they will have to give up a lot. One of the top 3 forward prospects (Zibanjad, Stone or Silfverberg) and another good B prospect or 2 of them.. like Da Costa.

We need a quality defenceman to get a playoff spot with Cowen out for probably the season (if it happens).

Over the next 2 seasons we will have so many good forward prospects ready to play in the NHL that we will have to move a few of them.

If the Senators want to get an established high quality NHL defenceman then they will need to pay in quality... not a bunch of our 2nd tier prospects. Just my opinion. I am not sold on Bouwmeester I only commented because the idea was in this thread. We do need a true quality NHL defenceman to replace Cowen this season if we want to make the playoffs. I do believe that. We will be terrible if we can't add a quality #2-4 defenceman that can play at least 20 quality minutes.

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12-20-2012, 08:47 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
Prospects are generally overrated. We actually have too many forwards to likely make our roster. Bouwmeester is a proven quality defenceman. He is always near the top in minutes played in the NHL. I don't think he is great... but great defencemen almost NEVER get traded.. unless their is a big falling out like with Pronger a couple of times.

Nash's contract was far worse and Columbus got proven NHLer's. Look at how much we had to give up to get Methot. A quality 50 point physical your NHLer... Defenceman cost a ton in trade and as UFA's they always get overpaid. IF the Senator's want to get a quality defenceman in trade... IF.. they will have to give up a lot. One of the top 3 forward prospects (Zibanjad, Stone or Silfverberg) and another good B prospect or 2 of them.. like Da Costa.

We need a quality defenceman to get a playoff spot with Cowen out for probably the season (if it happens).

Over the next 2 seasons we will have so many good forward prospects ready to play in the NHL that we will have to move a few of them.

If the Senators want to get an established high quality NHL defenceman then they will need to pay in quality... not a bunch of our 2nd tier prospects. Just my opinion. I am not sold on Bouwmeester I only commented because the idea was in this thread. We do need a true quality NHL defenceman to replace Cowen this season if we want to make the playoffs. I do believe that. We will be terrible if we can't add a quality #2-4 defenceman that can play at least 20 quality minutes.
while i don't know how much you have seen methot (i've never seen him play), i'm going to assume that he's pretty good, as someone here that has seen him play was saying he is very underrated. i'm going to say he isn't anything less than a #4. so assuming that he is a second pairing defenseman, and bouwmeester is a second pairing defenseman, we should be giving equal value to foligno for him, seeing as most of us thought foligno for methot was an overpayment on our part, and bouwmeester may be considered more valuable than methot, foligno should be about fair value (considering salary, calgary not needing bouwmeester badly).

i personally wouldn't trade for bouwmeester, but what we should be offering is probably a "b" prospect like da costa and a second, maybe a first depending on the defenseman. i like da costa, and don't consider him a "b" prospect, but i'm going by your ranking of prospects. da costa is a potential second line center that is defensively responsible enough to play on the third line, and a second (i know we don't have one this year) should be fair for a second pairing dman that hasn't shown any signs of being more than that, but is established in that position.

seeing that calgary needs bouwmeester (i think he's their #1 dman), they wouldn't trade him for anything short of an over-payment and would ask for more. at that point we bow out. trading a top prospect is not something you do unless you're packaging them for an impact player, not a short term (shortened season) need like a second pairing d-man, unless that has the potential to play the first pairing, or is just better than bouwmeester .

we can address this need in less expensive or more effective ways for similar cost than acquiring bouwmeester, i am sure of it.

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12-20-2012, 10:25 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by ATdaisuki View Post
while i don't know how much you have seen methot (i've never seen him play), i'm going to assume that he's pretty good, as someone here that has seen him play was saying he is very underrated. i'm going to say he isn't anything less than a #4. so assuming that he is a second pairing defenseman, and bouwmeester is a second pairing defenseman, we should be giving equal value to foligno for him, seeing as most of us thought foligno for methot was an overpayment on our part, and bouwmeester may be considered more valuable than methot, foligno should be about fair value (considering salary, calgary not needing bouwmeester badly).

i personally wouldn't trade for bouwmeester, but what we should be offering is probably a "b" prospect like da costa and a second, maybe a first depending on the defenseman. i like da costa, and don't consider him a "b" prospect, but i'm going by your ranking of prospects. da costa is a potential second line center that is defensively responsible enough to play on the third line, and a second (i know we don't have one this year) should be fair for a second pairing dman that hasn't shown any signs of being more than that, but is established in that position.

seeing that calgary needs bouwmeester (i think he's their #1 dman), they wouldn't trade him for anything short of an over-payment and would ask for more. at that point we bow out. trading a top prospect is not something you do unless you're packaging them for an impact player, not a short term (shortened season) need like a second pairing d-man, unless that has the potential to play the first pairing, or is just better than bouwmeester .

we can address this need in less expensive or more effective ways for similar cost than acquiring bouwmeester, i am sure of it.
Bouwmeester is far better than Methot is by any possible measure. Tremendously better. They are not really remotely comparable. Bouwmeester is a top 2 defenceman on virtually any team and if he is on the 2nd pairing you have a great defence. Comparing Methot to Bouwmeester in terms of value is craziness.

I don't even particularly like Bouwmeester but he is a very good defenceman and we need a good defenceman. There is very, very little player movement... every season there is less and less and signed players are worth more and more. Few player's every make it to UFAs.. they get resigned by their teams. And the few that get to UFA you have to overpay for and even if you are willing to overpay a lot it is still a crapshoot that the Senators can sign one of them with so many suitors. Which is why a player like Bouwmeester has significant value.

Bouwmeester is better than Cowen, Kuba or Gonchar at this point. And rather Easily too. If we were to acquire him the salary is not too large of a deal. We are not near the Cap and the $6.6 million he makes. $6.68 million cap hit... would be easily manageable if he makes us a more competitive team and helps us make the playoffs. It is only for the balance of this season and one more season then we could decide on resigning him.

Gonchar AND Lundin are UFAs after this season. We would have to find a vet or two veteran defencemen from somewhere after this season to be competitive regardless.

Think of it not as Bouwmeester but as a 25 minute a night proven 25-45 point 29 year old veteran that never misses any games to injury. Who can play on the PK and the PP and against any matchups at even strength. And he is among the better skaters in the NHL which fits our puck possession style. He is a very good commodity. A very, very useful player to any team. Even if he has his warts. I do think he is vastly underrated at this points. People talk like he is a piece of crap. He is so far from crap.. he just is not near the second coming of Scott Niedermeyer which is what people expected or still expect he should be. He isn't... he is however a better version of Kuba in pretty much every way. Younger, faster, healthier, better defensively and offensively.

If he was signed for 5 years at that high salary... it would be one thing. Now it is just a year and a half... if he fits the Senators you could resign him. If not then it is only a year and a half.

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12-20-2012, 10:35 AM
  #55
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Forget bouwmeester, and give wiercioch a shot. start him on the 3rd pairing and let him improve. he can turn into a bouwmeester type.

nothing wrong with Methot-Karlsson

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12-20-2012, 10:38 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
Bouwmeester...

...would be easily manageable if he makes us a more competitive team and helps us make the playoffs...
If history has taught me one thing, it's that JBo will not help you make the playoffs.

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12-20-2012, 11:17 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by SenzZen View Post
If history has taught me one thing, it's that JBo will not help you make the playoffs.
I believe that if the season were to resume, he would fill the 20+ minute-a-night void we currently have on the blueline should he be acquired. Which would go a long way towards making the team more playoff worthy than it currently is. So, the opposite of what you said.

We'd be much better off with him than without.

Also, a poster above mentioned that he's the Flames' best defenseman; Giordano is.

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12-20-2012, 11:27 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Icelevel View Post
Forget bouwmeester, and give wiercioch a shot. start him on the 3rd pairing and let him improve. he can turn into a bouwmeester type.

nothing wrong with Methot-Karlsson
Nothing wrong with that pairing, other than the fact that they haven't seen a second of ice time.

I'd ideally put Bouwmeester below Karlsson and on the second pairing, mind you.

And regarding Wiercioch; if we bring him in as the exclusive solution to our blueline problems, we're likely throwing away a season. He'll be good, but it will take time. I think we have the forward depth and the goaltending to make the playoffs. I don't want defense to be the weak link when we have a surplus of futures waiting to be cashed in trade-wise. It's obvious that a move needs to be made.

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12-20-2012, 11:32 AM
  #59
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If were trying to solidify our defence why would we ever even consider Bouwmeester? He's absolutely terrible. I've seen countless replays of him showing no effort on rushes and just letting the opponent skate by him and cut to the slot. If were gonna trade for a d-man why not pay a bit more for someone better?

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12-20-2012, 01:27 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by LeTigre View Post
I believe that if the season were to resume, he would fill the 20+ minute-a-night void we currently have on the blueline should he be acquired. Which would go a long way towards making the team more playoff worthy than it currently is. So, the opposite of what you said.

We'd be much better off with him than without.

Also, a poster above mentioned that he's the Flames' best defenseman; Giordano is.
It's the old correlation vs causation with him.

He hasn't played in a playoff game in the NHL or in Junior.

The only time he's played in the playoffs in his pro career is when he was traded from a team that was destined to miss the playoffs to a contender, and he put up 0 points in 18 games during that playoff run.

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12-20-2012, 01:32 PM
  #61
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Bouwmeester is far better than Methot is by any possible measure. Tremendously better. They are not really remotely comparable.
to this i say most likely. i haven't seen methot play yet, and i have a pretty poor image of bouwmeester.

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Bouwmeester is a top 2 defenceman on virtually any team and if he is on the 2nd pairing you have a great defence. Comparing Methot to Bouwmeester in terms of value is craziness.
bouwmeester is not a top two defenseman on most teams. he is a second pairing d-man.

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I don't even particularly like Bouwmeester but he is a very good defenceman and we need a good defenceman. There is very, very little player movement... every season there is less and less and signed players are worth more and more. Few player's every make it to UFAs. they get resigned by their teams. And the few that get to UFA you have to overpay for and even if you are willing to overpay a lot it is still a crapshoot that the Senators can sign one of them with so many suitors. Which is why a player like Bouwmeester has significant value.
again, i don't think bouwmeester is a bad defenseman like some people are saying, i just think he is a second pairing defenseman. there is little player movement, but that doesn't mean that we can't
1) draft and develop
2) use our strong prospect pool and trade to strengthen an area of weakness

trading for bouwmeester would strengthen an area of weakness right now, partly because we're missing cowen. i think that he doesn't help us long term. he may not even help us in two seasons. i still think there are better ways to help our defense with the assets we have to spend.

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Bouwmeester is better than Cowen, Kuba or Gonchar at this point. And rather Easily too. If we were to acquire him the salary is not too large of a deal. We are not near the Cap and the $6.6 million he makes. $6.68 million cap hit... would be easily manageable if he makes us a more competitive team and helps us make the playoffs. It is only for the balance of this season and one more season then we could decide on resigning him.
bouwmeester might be a little better than cowen, but for how long? kuba was great last season, i'm not sure if i'd but bouwmeester above him. gonchar is aging, but still better than boumeester offensively. his salary isn't a problem, i wasn't really arguing that.

Quote:
Gonchar AND Lundin are UFAs after this season. We would have to find a vet or two veteran defencemen from somewhere after this season to be competitive regardless.
cowen - karlsson
methot - xxxxx/wier
phillips - boro/wier

i wouldn't be against trying wier in the top four before looking for help. losing gonchar puts us down one top 4 dman, and lundin was probably signed this season to place-hold for boro.

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Think of it not as Bouwmeester but as a 25 minute a night proven 25-45 point 29 year old veteran that never misses any games to injury. Who can play on the PK and the PP and against any matchups at even strength. And he is among the better skaters in the NHL which fits our puck possession style. He is a very good commodity. A very, very useful player to any team. Even if he has his warts. I do think he is vastly underrated at this points. People talk like he is a piece of crap. He is so far from crap.. he just is not near the second coming of Scott Niedermeyer which is what people expected or still expect he should be. He isn't... he is however a better version of Kuba in pretty much every way. Younger, faster, healthier, better defensively and offensively.

If he was signed for 5 years at that high salary... it would be one thing. Now it is just a year and a half... if he fits the Senators you could resign him. If not then it is only a year and a half.
bouwmeester has had #1 minutes for three years and has not put up more than 30 points. he'd be playing the second pairing with less pp time, so the points would either stay the same somehow, or go down. he could find his point scoring youch again, but there is no reason to expect that. he is not a terrible player, but he isn't a top pairing defenseman on a contender. he is a better skater than kuba, the same or worse than kuba offensively, and the same or worse than kuba defensively (when kuba isn't injured)

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Originally Posted by LeTigre View Post
I believe that if the season were to resume, he would fill the 20+ minute-a-night void we currently have on the blueline should he be acquired. Which would go a long way towards making the team more playoff worthy than it currently is. So, the opposite of what you said.

We'd be much better off with him than without.

Also, a poster above mentioned that he's the Flames' best defenseman; Giordano is.
so you would trade valuable assets to help us in a shortened season? is a second pairing defenseman worth those assets (top prospect, two b prospects)? the answer is no. if you are referring to me saying bouwmeester is there best defenseman, i didn't mean that. he is there #1 as in he plays the most. the flames would still not trade bouwmeester for anything short of an overpayment, as they do desperately need him to eat those minutes.

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12-20-2012, 02:17 PM
  #62
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It would help us through a shortened season and through next season as well.

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12-20-2012, 03:15 PM
  #63
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It would help us through a shortened season and through next season as well.
does it help us enough next season to justify giving up the assets required to acquire him? in my opinion it isn't. i think those assets could be used to get a better dman, one that will help us longer than bouwmeester, or be kept. i'm starting to believe that we won't have to make any serious moves on defense until we see whether or not wier will turn out well.

if the season is wiped and we don't make any moves, i think next year we should try

cowen/methot - karlsson
cowen/methot - wiercioch
phillips - boro
beniot

this costs us no assets, and after evaluating these players, we could still make a trade if things aren't working out. the year after that one ceci might (might) get a look as well. there's no great need to trade for bouwmeester, and maybe not for anyone.

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12-20-2012, 04:21 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by ATdaisuki View Post
does it help us enough next season to justify giving up the assets required to acquire him? in my opinion it isn't. i think those assets could be used to get a better dman, one that will help us longer than bouwmeester, or be kept. i'm starting to believe that we won't have to make any serious moves on defense until we see whether or not wier will turn out well.

if the season is wiped and we don't make any moves, i think next year we should try

cowen/methot - karlsson
cowen/methot - wiercioch
phillips - boro
beniot

this costs us no assets, and after evaluating these players, we could still make a trade if things aren't working out. the year after that one ceci might (might) get a look as well. there's no great need to trade for bouwmeester, and maybe not for anyone.
My scenario has the season returning this year. So yes, trading away assets for one shot at a deep playoff run with Bouwmeester wouldn't be smart. Two playoff runs? Plausible. As was mentioned earlier, there are a logjam of prospects, of which not all will pan out for the Senators. Wouldn't be the end of the world to move a few around to address our weakness.

And I'm curious, which better defensemen do you have in mind?

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12-20-2012, 05:13 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by LeTigre View Post
My scenario has the season returning this year. So yes, trading away assets for one shot at a deep playoff run with Bouwmeester wouldn't be smart. Two playoff runs? Plausible. As was mentioned earlier, there are a logjam of prospects, of which not all will pan out for the Senators. Wouldn't be the end of the world to move a few around to address our weakness.

And I'm curious, which better defensemen do you have in mind?
we do have a lot of prospects, but how many are close to making the jump?
zibby, silf, stone, da costa, hoffman, prince maybe petersson are potential top sixers. they may not start there, but that's their potential. only silf is a lock to play in the nhl next year. maybe da costa and hoffman get shots as well. the rest can stay in the minors if we want. i'd keep zibby down there so he can get some consistency. stone just to play a bigger role.
for the bottom six, grant and dd might get a look next season.
so a maximum of five prospects get hard looks next season, with not all of them making it (probably only one or two). looking at the forwards signed for next season:
xxxx-spezza-michalek
xxxx-turris-xxxx
greening-smith-neil
xxxx-o'brien-xxxx

while we do have quite a few prospects, we don't need to move them yet. we have more time to evaluate them.

our defense isn't all that bad when cowen comes back from injury, so i'm not extremely keen on making a big trade for a defenseman, but if we had to put up assets to nab a defenseman from another team, i'd look to the rangers. they have a young core with some contracts expiring soon, so i think they might be willing to move one. it might cost us some serious assets, but the player would come cheaper (salary), younger, and around as good as bouwmeester with the potential to be better. in all honesty, i wouldn't mind having bouwmeester on our team, but yanking a top pairing defenseman off a team that needs quality dmen is going to be too pricey for someone of his caliber. might be better to ask a team that has a plethora of quality defensemen.

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12-20-2012, 07:57 PM
  #66
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We need a quality defenceman to get a playoff spot with Cowen out for probably the season (if it happens).

Over the next 2 seasons we will have so many good forward prospects ready to play in the NHL that we will have to move a few of them.

If the Senators want to get an established high quality NHL defenceman then they will need to pay in quality... not a bunch of our 2nd tier prospects. Just my opinion. I am not sold on Bouwmeester I only commented because the idea was in this thread. We do need a true quality NHL defenceman to replace Cowen this season if we want to make the playoffs. I do believe that. We will be terrible if we can't add a quality #2-4 defenceman that can play at least 20 quality minutes.[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
Prospects are generally overrated. We actually have too many forwards to likely make our roster. Bouwmeester is a proven quality defenceman. He is always near the top in minutes played in the NHL. I don't think he is great... but great defencemen almost NEVER get traded.. unless their is a big falling out like with Pronger a couple of times.
Prospects with NHL potential are valuable. They are young, cheap and you control their destiny (ELC + RFA) for years. Plus they have the desire to show that they belong in the NHL

It's not because we have a lot of them right now that we have to give them away like candy...

Jbo is overpaid by AT LEAST 2 M$, only has 1 year left (after this season that probably won't ever exist) and will be UFA right after

I wouldn't sacrifice Zibanejad + Da Costa + Puempel

We're talking about a 6th overall pick, a 24th overall pick (maybe worth more than that as he was projected to go higher) and Da Costa who was a very touted College Free Agent not long ago and who is probably also worth a 1st round pick as well

3 first round picks for 1 year of Jbo? WTF? Are you even trying to argue with me there?


And "always near the top in minutes played in the NHL" doesn't garantee anything... He plays those minutes for non-playoffs teams


Quote:
Nash's contract was far worse and Columbus got proven NHLer's. Look at how much we had to give up to get Methot. A quality 50 point physical your NHLer... Defenceman cost a ton in trade and as UFA's they always get overpaid. IF the Senator's want to get a quality defenceman in trade... IF.. they will have to give up a lot. One of the top 3 forward prospects (Zibanjad, Stone or Silfverberg) and another good B prospect or 2 of them.. like Da Costa.
Nash's contract is worse than Jbo's? No... because at least Nash is an impact player and would make our team instantly dangerous

Nash-Spezza-Michalek
Silfverberg-Turris-Alfredsson

Check that top-6


Also, who are you talking about? “A quality 50 point physical your NHLer”? Foligno???

He’s good but he is not a 50 pts player… He reached 47 pts once… it was more an anomaly season than anything else… only 15 goals (several in empty nets) and a lot of secondary assists on the cycle, as we know that Foligno is really not a playmaker. In fact, the biggest knock on him is that he doesn’t know how to use his teammates.

Methot is not as a big name as Jbo but he makes only 3.0 per season (45% of Jbo’s salary) and has 2 years left on his contract after this season (1 more than Jbo) and is 2 year younger. He provides less offence but when you account ice-time and PP-time, the difference is minimal.

Seriously, we used Nick Foligno as trade bait because we didn’t want to pay him 3.0 per season or more going forward… We used him a few years on cheap contracts but Sens management decided that it was the time to move on and leave the spot for somebody else (we have ton of young guys like you said)

Finally, I’m not sure if Da Costa is a “B prospect”… in fact I don’t think so. A “B prospect” is Derek Grant or Jim O’Brien…

Yes, the cost to get a quality top-4 D-man would be high but Jbo ain’t that guy because :

- He’s overpaid by a 2-3 millions (right away it drops the value a lot)
- He’s not physical, he doesn’t have a lot of intensity
- He doesn’t produce a lot of points per ice-time/PP time
- Has only 1 year left on his contract
- Is not considered as a player “you win with”

Quote:
We need a quality defenceman to get a playoff spot with Cowen out for probably the season (if it happens).

Over the next 2 seasons we will have so many good forward prospects ready to play in the NHL that we will have to move a few of them.

If the Senators want to get an established high quality NHL defenceman then they will need to pay in quality... not a bunch of our 2nd tier prospects. Just my opinion. I am not sold on Bouwmeester I only commented because the idea was in this thread. We do need a true quality NHL defenceman to replace Cowen this season if we want to make the playoffs. I do believe that. We will be terrible if we can't add a quality #2-4 defenceman that can play at least 20 quality minutes.
I understand your worries but seriously, why even bother as there is not even a season?

I’d rather get an older (but under the radar) D-man for a lot less if that was the price to get Jbo…

We don’t have to make the playoffs at all costs. Sacrificing 3 top prospects is not worth it and it wouldn’t guarantee that we’d make the playoffs as Jbo has never made them.

If we were to move that type of prospects, it has to be worth it and Jbo wouldn't be worth it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
Bouwmeester is far better than Methot is by any possible measure. Tremendously better. They are not really remotely comparable. Bouwmeester is a top 2 defenceman on virtually any team and if he is on the 2nd pairing you have a great defence. Comparing Methot to Bouwmeester in terms of value is craziness.
Is he 2.23 times better? Because that's the ratio difference of their cap hits

Methot is more physical. Jbo doesn't produce a lot of points for his ice-time and PP time...


Last edited by Xspyrit: 12-20-2012 at 08:06 PM.
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