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Lockout V: Take the Long Way Home

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Old
12-19-2012, 05:04 PM
  #426
Do Make Say Think
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xdl1 View Post
Yes, union busting. It has nothing to do with the NHL, and it has nothing to do with sports negotiation. This kind of thing has been going on since the days of the titans in the American industrial revolution. Huge corporate entities with more money at their disposal than you could count in a lifetime forcing entire classes of people to cater to their demands by withholding their ability to earn wages.

It's not about the how much the players make. It's the idea that with each successive negotiation, they will be forced to take significantly less, regardless of the success of the ownership. It happens in all forms of negotiation, and it's taken on a totally new life within the last 10 years or so.

You're correct, they would still make a boatload of money should they agree today to terms. That's not my argument, that's yours. If you want to disagree, you're welcome to do so, but my argument to yours is apples and oranges.
Classic fear mongering... I will agree that the pattern can, at first glance, seem menacing; however seeing as how the NHLPA has never played ball with the owners your conclusion seems premature.

If Kelly had remained head of the PA and the current scenario we are experiencing had unfolded you could have had a case worth making.

As of now you have nothing and fall back on scare tactics. You become what you hate I guess!

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12-19-2012, 05:49 PM
  #427
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https://twitter.com/hackswithhaggs/s...09022614560768

Why would Daly assure Friedman that there will be a season? Wouldn't that weaken his negotiating position?

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12-19-2012, 05:56 PM
  #428
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And what if those legal procedures were al fake

Apparently, Fehr doesnt need that vote to do Disclamer of Interest. It's a matter of him not repping the Union and not the players rejecting the Union.

So.........is there a possibility that the vote is technically a vote on the last NHL offer since it needs to be accepted before Dec 21?
Bill Daly proved to be really optimistic and reports say that the vote already passed the 66% needed. If it were not to have a season, Bill Daly would not have made that remark. He would have insulted the PA and Don Fehr.

Just my take.

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12-19-2012, 06:03 PM
  #429
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Weird things being said by both sides. Now Fehr states that the PA is "on strike"!

Quote:
Donald Fehr also got a chance to speak. "They say they have nothing left to give but what exactly have they given? All the giving here has been done by the players. In terms of a deadline, it's only the NHL setting deadlines. What could we do? Threaten to go on strike? We're already on strike," he said.
http://www.nj.com/rangers/index.ssf/...ll_daly_s.html

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12-19-2012, 06:45 PM
  #430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
https://twitter.com/hackswithhaggs/s...09022614560768

Why would Daly assure Friedman that there will be a season? Wouldn't that weaken his negotiating position?
He was given the directive of a "yes" or "no" answer.

Any guesses as to what Fehr and the PA would have done with a "no" answer?

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12-19-2012, 07:48 PM
  #431
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
I feel your pain. We won the Cup in June of '04 and had to wait the entire lockout year to get ours.



We've lost a number of games we could have attended to date. For those of us who attend those games, it's more than just showing up, it's shared time with friends, supporting local businesses around the arena, etc. Just because you don't miss the games or don't feel they're entertaining doesn't make it so.


I am not arguing that FANS have not lost passions, good times etc...I am arguing that financially FANS have lost nothing. And that the best part of the season is yet to come!

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12-19-2012, 07:54 PM
  #432
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Originally Posted by echlfreak View Post
I am not arguing that FANS have not lost passions, good times etc...I am arguing that financially FANS have lost nothing.
I suppose that *technically* I haven't lost anything financially because the money is still on deposit with the team. However, that's $2,000+ of my money that they have and I don't, so I suppose it could be argued that I've "lost" it since I don't have it to spend on anything else!

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12-19-2012, 08:07 PM
  #433
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Originally Posted by pepty View Post
How can this possibly be a best case scenario? Isn't it a lot closer to cutting off your nose to spite your face?
cutting off your face to spite your nose

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12-19-2012, 08:16 PM
  #434
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Work stoppage?????

You may think the players are spoiled and overpaid -- that's fine, they probably are.

However, in 2005 the players agreed to a Cap and took and instant 24% pay cut. The fact that worked out to their advantage is more a testament to the owner's lack of foresight than anything else.

Now in 2012 -- at the first opportunity since -- the owner's first offer was another 24% cut (57% to 43% share).

I don't care what you make a year -- $40K, $400K, $4M, or $4B -- if someone demands you take a 24% cut every time the deal governing your so called "partnership" comes up for re-negotiation expect things to get ugly.
If they'd agreed to lock the cap in at the same rate as 2011-12 ($64m) there would be no need for a rollback.

Quote:
PARTICULARLY given the fact that the owners can't even guarantee the league problems will be solved with the proposal they first came out with. Instead of being hard *****, they should have shown some humility and said "we all have to cut" -- you help us, we'll put in some meaningful revenue sharing, and we'll work together to ensure we have longterm success and continued growth.

Instead they came across as total ass wipes.

The Work Stoppage is due to the fact that Bettman and the owners don't know jack diddly about how to run a league -- despite $3.3B in revenues.
All that makes perfect sense to talk about during the existing CBA. Say in 2009 or perhaps 2010 or maybe even 2011 or just throwing it out there the first half of 2012.


Last edited by me2: 12-19-2012 at 08:22 PM.
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Old
12-19-2012, 08:43 PM
  #435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
I suppose that *technically* I haven't lost anything financially because the money is still on deposit with the team. However, that's $2,000+ of my money that they have and I don't, so I suppose it could be argued that I've "lost" it since I don't have it to spend on anything else!
That would be your opportunity cost. Ties in with loss of utility, efficient use of resources, etc. Economics 101 (maybe 102, depends on how deep you want to delve into it).

You understand the economic cost of a good, even if you didn't know it; kinda sounds like you did though. Pity the same can't be said for too many around here; we might have debates with substance if they did.

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Old
12-19-2012, 10:37 PM
  #436
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On the 43% number, no one took it seriously. It was a starting point [Mod]. If they said 50% he would bleed them for 53.5%. The 43 was used to get to 50 and it worked.

Bettman is a horrid negotiator, but Fehr killed a 91 year tradition. NHLPA supporters point to labor *peace* in baseball but the sport is completely ruined. How many meaningful games lost in Pittsburgh and Kansas City since 1994?
2916 each
  • Pittsburgh is 0 for 18 in making the playoffs.
    ---The town has 3 championships (6 finals) in the other 2 sports in that time.
  • The Brewers qualified for the playoffs 2 times since the strike.
  • The Padres have made the playoffs 4 times in 18 years.
    -
  • The Yankees have made the playoffs 17 times in 18 years.
  • The Red Sox have made the playoffs 9 times in 18 years.
  • The Braves have made the playoffs 13 times in 18 years.

That is not a sport.

Even teams like Florida and Arizona go into debt mode for a few years (or a few months), get hot or lucky and win, then sell the whole team.
  • Florida has 2 world series in 18 years and missed the playoffs the other 16 seasons.
  • Arizona was top 10 in payroll from 1999 to 2003. (3 playoff teams in 5 years) then dropped back (2 in 10 years)
    --Arizona had a 28% lower 2012 payroll (74.3 million) than they did in 2002 (102.8 million).

You do get teams who spend poorly (Mets 3 in 18) or work the system (Moneyball A's 6 in 18) but the game is broken.
Players get paid in Boston, New York or LA and the fans suffer.


Last edited by 0range and Black: 12-19-2012 at 11:08 PM. Reason: not reqd...
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Old
12-19-2012, 10:57 PM
  #437
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Quote:
Originally Posted by echlfreak View Post
You are "frustrated" and "waiting"...but haven't lost a thing! Tired of hearing about FANS complaining!
Fans have every right to complain, especially when this is the second lockout in 8 years. Oh, and if you're tired of hearing fans complain, why exactly are you here? Do you expect fans to be happy on hockey forums right now?

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Old
12-19-2012, 11:06 PM
  #438
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The Pirates lose because they choose to be a terrible organization, not because of the lack of a salary cap.

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Old
12-19-2012, 11:53 PM
  #439
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
The Pirates lose because they choose to be a terrible organization, not because of the lack of a salary cap.

Same with the Padres, Royals, and Marlins (Forbes actually listed the Padres as the most profitable team in baseball a year ago). That being said, the lack of a salary cap does come into play because there's nothing forcing these owners to put the profit $$$ back into their teams and make them competitive.

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12-20-2012, 03:49 AM
  #440
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Continuing on the insurance trail from different thread. Thought it more appropriate for this thread.

From what I am understanding is that insurance has exclusions for previous injuries. This could mean that Sidney Crosby's new contract may not be insurance claimable if his career is ended due to concussion.

Also:

http://www.ctvnews.ca/insurance-firm...sions-1.762964

Quote:
With the number of concussions growing in the National Hockey League, insurance companies are considering throwing the financial burden back on the league's teams.
More than 60 NHL players are sidelined with head injuries this season including Pittsburgh Penguin captain Sidney Crosby.
Quote:
The spike in concussions can be traced to a couple factors. Players are bigger and the game is faster, equipment is lighter and harder, and new rules like curbing interference and obstruction and eliminating the centre line for two-line off sides have sped up the game.
The NHL is responsible for more head and other injuries so by shortening the contract lengths they mitigate their financial liability.

This is the real reason for "THE HILL TO DIE ON". Plus it is easier to discard players if they do get injured and replace them with shiny new unbroken ones.

NHL has 60 concussions in one year. Does anyone have the concussion stats for the NBA, MLB and NFL?

I'm starting to think that the players deserve more than 50/50 if they are playing in a sport with higher chances to lose brain function.

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12-20-2012, 06:53 AM
  #441
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
I suppose that *technically* I haven't lost anything financially because the money is still on deposit with the team. However, that's $2,000+ of my money that they have and I don't, so I suppose it could be argued that I've "lost" it since I don't have it to spend on anything else!
You lost the interest on that money. Also you have to keep it deposited with the team since asking for a refund would also forfeit your seats rights.

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12-20-2012, 07:02 AM
  #442
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You lost the interest on that money. Also you have to keep it deposited with the team since asking for a refund would also forfeit your seats rights.
Well, they're paying interest, although I've forgotten how much. Probably as much as any savings account these days, and that's sad.

The Lightning will give a refund without losing my seat rights since I had already renewed. The only way you lost them here is if you declined to renew at all, and, frankly, I think that's perfectly fair. I would keep the right to my seat, however, would have to pay any increase in price for the next season which would apply to new season ticket holders (assuming the entire season is cx'd).

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12-20-2012, 07:54 AM
  #443
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Originally Posted by Tkachuk4MVP View Post
Same with the Padres, Royals, and Marlins (Forbes actually listed the Padres as the most profitable team in baseball a year ago). That being said, the lack of a salary cap does come into play because there's nothing forcing these owners to put the profit $$$ back into their teams and make them competitive.
And that can be the danger of too much revenue sharing. You can refuse to use money to field a competitive team and still make huge amounts of cash.

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12-20-2012, 09:02 AM
  #444
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Originally Posted by rockinghorse View Post
NHL has 60 concussions in one year. Does anyone have the concussion stats for the NBA, MLB and NFL?

I'm starting to think that the players deserve more than 50/50 if they are playing in a sport with higher chances to lose brain function.
Are you serious? Concussion stats for NBA and MLB? How do you expect a player in the NBA or MLB to get a concussion?

As for football, I think they would have more concussions then the NHL based on games played.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/05/health...ase/index.html

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Old
12-20-2012, 09:09 AM
  #445
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Originally Posted by rockinghorse View Post

I'm starting to think that the players deserve more than 50/50 if they are playing in a sport with higher chances to lose brain function.
Or maybe they could just try other less physical sports....??

Surely you can't be serious.

why not give them 80/20 and call it a day

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12-20-2012, 09:21 AM
  #446
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Are you serious? Concussion stats for NBA and MLB? How do you expect a player in the NBA or MLB to get a concussion?
[/url]
This past season MLB instituted a 7 day disabled list specifically for players with concussions.

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12-20-2012, 09:31 AM
  #447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aj8000 View Post
Are you serious? Concussion stats for NBA and MLB? How do you expect a player in the NBA or MLB to get a concussion?

As for football, I think they would have more concussions then the NHL based on games played.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/05/health...ase/index.html
Ask Brandon McCarthy who had to have emergency brain surgery for a skull fracture.

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12-20-2012, 09:45 AM
  #448
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This past season MLB instituted a 7 day disabled list specifically for players with concussions.
MLB puts people on the DL for an ingrown toenail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Butch 19
Or maybe they could just try other less physical sports....??

Surely you can't be serious.

why not give them 80/20 and call it a day
If NHL players can't be compensated more to play a sport which would physically and mentally shatter most of the posters here, who would want to play professional hockey? What's the point in putting your physical health on the line simply for the entertainment of others if there's no real gain?

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12-20-2012, 09:54 AM
  #449
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Ask Brandon McCarthy who had to have emergency brain surgery for a skull fracture.
True, but again I don't think we should be arguing for 'danger pay' when other professions have a much higher fatal injury rate. Krys Barch might want to think twice about comparing himself to a 'truck driver' or a 'farmer', when last year 759 truck drivers had a fatal work injury (making a median of $13 an hour) and 260 farmers had fatal work injuries (making a median of about $29 an hour). No pro sport is on the list of 'most dangerous jobs', at least by fatal injury rate. (Drivers are #8 and Farmers #7)

Mr. Barch made $850k on 374 minutes of ice-time last year. Or about $136k/hour. I didn't factor in practice or other time he might be considered 'working' though. So that actual rate is probably a lot lower. Still, he's no truck driver or farmer though.

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12-20-2012, 10:05 AM
  #450
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True, but again I don't think we should be arguing for 'danger pay' when other professions have a much higher fatal injury rate. Krys Barch might want to think twice about comparing himself to a 'truck driver' or a 'farmer', when last year 759 truck drivers had a fatal work injury (making a median of $13 an hour) and 260 farmers had fatal work injuries (making a median of about $29 an hour). No pro sport is on the list of 'most dangerous jobs', at least by fatal injury rate. (Drivers are #8 and Farmers #7)

Mr. Barch made $850k on 374 minutes of ice-time last year. Or about $136k/hour. I didn't factor in practice or other time he might be considered 'working' though. So that actual rate is probably a lot lower. Still, he's no truck driver or farmer though.
You have to think that the other time he's considered "on the clock" would be practice, workouts, team meetings, travel time, etc.

Is that worth $850k per year? Obviously that's not for us to decide.

As far as the "hazardous" argument, you also have to take into account the number of farmers and truck drivers compared to the number of people who get paid large(r) sums of money to play hockey.

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