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NHL Lockout Discusion XXXIII: It's the same old song. **MOD WARNING POST 274

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Old
12-20-2012, 02:38 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by HavlatMach9 View Post
I know the NHL is negotiating against itself, but at least it's easy to follow, it's somewhat clear how their proposal has been changing. Fehr's proposals aren't as straight forward. It's as if he listens to what the NHL gives up, then changes his own proposal accordingly.
I don't think this is true at all. I think this is the narrative Bettman and Daly are trying to paint, but whether it is based on reality is an entirely other matter.

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12-20-2012, 03:37 AM
  #52
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I think it'd be funny if Bettman called a press conference tomorrow unexpectedly, got up there and said, "**** it, Season's over. Merry Christmas everyone!" and Daly would be standing off to the side of him with a Santa hat on let's say.

Sorry, following all this nonsense for so long is making me loopy. Must admit, interesting though learning all the nuances of collective bargaining.

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12-20-2012, 03:58 AM
  #53
MikeK
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Originally Posted by yoss View Post
I think it'd be funny if Bettman called a press conference tomorrow unexpectedly, got up there and said, "**** it, Season's over. Merry Christmas everyone!" and Daly would be standing off to the side of him with a Santa hat on let's say.

Sorry, following all this nonsense for so long is making me loopy. Must admit, interesting though learning all the nuances of collective bargaining.
HAHA... I hear ya. The optics of that would have me laughing for sure. Throw some reindeer antlers on Bettman's head and I'd probably piss my pants.

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12-20-2012, 04:35 AM
  #54
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HAHA... I hear ya. The optics of that would have me laughing for sure. Throw some reindeer antlers on Bettman's head and I'd probably piss my pants.
I like it. And they're both holding hot toddy's, maybe Bettman slurs his words just slightly.

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12-20-2012, 05:52 AM
  #55
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I get the sense the NHL is going to bring in replacement players. That's why Daly said there will be a season. I wonder how many NHl players will cross ?

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12-20-2012, 05:57 AM
  #56
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I get the sense the NHL is going to bring in replacement players. That's why Daly said there will be a season. I wonder how many NHl players will cross ?
It's not a strike.

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12-20-2012, 06:04 AM
  #57
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Furthermore, Fehr was advising Goodenow last time around ... not so hard to see why the players hired him...
And Goodenow failed miserably
Just like Fehr is now

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Old
12-20-2012, 06:39 AM
  #58
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When are the voting results going to be revealed?

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Old
12-20-2012, 06:46 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by 5lidyzer19 View Post
It's not a strike.
http://www.nj.com/rangers/index.ssf/...ll_daly_s.html

Quote:
Donald Fehr also got a chance to speak. "They say they have nothing left to give but what exactly have they given? All the giving here has been done by the players. In terms of a deadline, it's only the NHL setting deadlines. What could we do? Threaten to go on strike? We're already on strike," he said.

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12-20-2012, 06:58 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
Fehr represents the players. The players do not wish to capitulate completely. The league blows it up if this is the case. That is not negotiating and it is certainly not an act of good faith.

No one is forcing the owners, or the league, to take such a hardline stance. It is not inherent that they do so.
No, it's not. It's not inherent that the players take the hardline stance of refusing to budge, either.

I know you don't believe the league has been negotiating, but I don't think a judge or jury would agree with you. They've continually modified their demands and submitted repeated proposals. For quite some time the responses by the NHLPA were brief and to the point: "No." Now, *that's* not negotiating.

Seriously, if you take a look at the chronology of events and the lack of action by the PA compared to the league, the PA taking the step of making any claim of the league refusing to negotiate is pretty foolish.

And while it's not inherent for the league to take such a hardline stance, they simply appear to have hit their bottom line (although I think they'd relent if the PA would offer up a true 50/50). I don't see that as being any different from the PA refusing to budge. Impasse. It will be interesting to see where it goes from here.

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12-20-2012, 06:59 AM
  #61
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When are the voting results going to be revealed?


Most likely tomorrow.

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12-20-2012, 07:10 AM
  #62
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1. Notwithstanding all-star players, fringe and "typical" players are far better off working collectively. If you disagree, see old-timer NHL player benefits; history does not lie.
One cancelled season, one half-season, and one half-cancelled (and counting) season and combined wages say hi.

Also, show me any old-timer NHLer who thinks the players continuing this lockout is in their best interest. How about we find out what ACTUAL players had to say? How about Ted Lindsay and Guy Lafleur?
Quote:
Lindsay, who was blackballed in the mid-1950s for laying the groundwork for the players' association, also disagreed with the way Washington Capitals defenseman Roman Hamrlik was treated recently when, in an interview with a Czech media outlet, he questioned the leadership of Fehr and suggested it was time to make a deal and play.

Lindsay agreed with Hamrlik that there should be a vote taken by the players.

"He was absolutely right," Lindsay said. "Every one of these players needs to realize the money they've lost, they will never get back in their lifetime. The front two lines of every team are the big money-earners and they're going to be fine no matter what, but the third- and fourth-liners or the guys like (Hamrlik) at the end of their career, they're going to feel it and I'm sure they are feeling it, so they should speak up."

From "Ted Lindsay: Bettman doing his job": http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/86...layers-lockout
Quote:
He also said he doesn’t think it’s “normal” that the players are making more than the owners. The two sides should sit down, finalize a deal and make the fans happy because they’re the ones paying big money to see teams play, he added.

From "Guy Lafleur's take on the lockout": http://www.hockeyinsideout.com/news/...on-the-lockout
Great point, Ted. Why is there not a vote taken by the players to take the current deal? I guess we can't have that - TOO much power for the individual player, huh?

Plus I could go on with Roenick, Recchi, Modano and other players who have gone through the experience of a work stoppage like Hamrlik but those are easily looked up.

The days of the 50s and 60s where the teams OWNED the players are over. Some want to still fight that fight but don't realize the pendulum has already swung the other side too far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
2. There is always going to be "descent" within the ranks. However, you are confusing an outspoken voice going against the grain with a voice that has power. Hamrlik has no power, and on his own would be able to dictate little with his employer.
Hmm, "Hamrlik has no power"? Who says that other than you? Or the union? Obviously he didn't think so, and exercised his right to speak up, and like Lindsay said, should be able to speak up as a member of said organization which was supposed to support him.

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Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
3. You, as well as many others on here, make the assumption that the union is not representing the players. This is speculative and not grounded in any concrete evidence as far as I can tell.
Well, is there enough evidence when an actual member of the union doesn't feel his voice was being heard to the point where he had to voice it publicly? And I'm sure many other players as well are thinking the same.

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Old
12-20-2012, 07:10 AM
  #63
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When are the voting results going to be revealed?
Voting ends today. The results should be known tonight or tomorrow but the results may not be made public. I suspect that if it's an overwhelming 'yes', then the information will get leaked but there's also the possibility that they won't say anything at all even if the vote was largely 'yes'.

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Old
12-20-2012, 07:40 AM
  #64
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Most likely tomorrow.
I hate how everything so far has been dragged out, seemingly forever. I feel like an innocent man locked in a prison cell with no way out.

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Old
12-20-2012, 07:55 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by mossey3535
common sense is not necessarily good when these contracts are tied to signing great players in a gate driven league. The teams are competing against each other on the ice and off...until it comes to the CBA negotiation.

There is no incentive for a rich team to NOT flex their financial muscle to attract a player they want.

There is also a continually decreasing incentive for a team to set a low budget. It might stop the bleeding but gate will eventually suffer. Also, the cap floor might rise to a point that forces them above their budget.

Its not as simple as it seems - to balance being competitve and attracting the best players with being fiscally responsible
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlandry
Yep. People always use the "owners should just stop their GMs from signing bad contracts" argument, but they fail to see this basic point : competition.
I'm not ignoring that point by any means, I'm simply saying that you have to balance the competitive nature of the business with your ability to financially support said competition from your investment.

If there are a couple of lean years, don't sign ridiculous contracts. Let the books balance out a bit, sign a few higher-profile FAs, develop some draft picks, or make some trades, and then be competitive again. Once again, seems like common sense.

The bigger spending teams will have an advantage; they will ALWAYS have an advantage in one way or another. If a couple of big market teams win the Cup for a few years, then someone comes out of nowhere the next year with a well-developed draft class and some decent FA signings (that don't hamper your ability to make money), how is that bad for the league?

If the gate for a particular team suffers enough, then that team likely isn't in a good location. Bettman is infamous for trying to cram market-shaped pegs into puck-shaped holes until the League's ledgers bleed, and while continual relocation isn't a wise strategy, neither is forcing what is effectively a niche sport into places it doesn't necessarily belong.

It seems to me people are more often in the "WINNOWATALLCOSTSZOMGBBQFOAMDROOL" and don't look at the big picture often enough.


Last edited by RedMenace: 12-20-2012 at 08:14 AM. Reason: Ugh, finally got those hyperlinks out of the names.
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12-20-2012, 07:59 AM
  #66
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I expect we will hear today what the voting results are

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12-20-2012, 08:25 AM
  #67
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I expect we will hear today what the voting results are
I expect Florida and Ohio to be swing states.

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12-20-2012, 08:26 AM
  #68
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I expect we will hear today what the voting results are
It will be 95% plus in favour.

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Old
12-20-2012, 08:30 AM
  #69
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I expect Florida and Ohio to be swing states.
How many dangling chads are we fighting?

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12-20-2012, 08:32 AM
  #70
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How many dangling chads are we fighting?
Precisely 14.

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Old
12-20-2012, 08:38 AM
  #71
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The NHL in the past 18 years have had:

1 full season cancelled
1/2 season cancelled
1/2 season cancelled (so far)


............and yet they wonder why they're bush-league compared to the NFL/MLB/NBA? How about getting some control over your own league. It's pathetic.

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12-20-2012, 08:48 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by ScaredStreit View Post
The NHL in the past 18 years have had:

1 full season cancelled
1/2 season cancelled
1/2 season cancelled (so far)


............and yet they wonder why they're bush-league compared to the NFL/MLB/NBA? How about getting some control over your own league. It's pathetic.
It is mind boggling that the man who has overseen such incompetence still has people defending him. 20 years on the job and the league is a bigger joke than it has ever been.


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Old
12-20-2012, 08:48 AM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaredStreit View Post
The NHL in the past 18 years have had:

1 full season cancelled
1/2 season cancelled
1/2 season cancelled (so far)


............and yet they wonder why they're bush-league compared to the NFL/MLB/NBA? How about getting some control over your own league. It's pathetic.
With that record, i'd hope they start getting together earlier... but lord knows we will never see that in the future.

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Old
12-20-2012, 08:50 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaredStreit View Post
The NHL in the past 18 years have had:

1 full season cancelled
1/2 season cancelled
1/2 season cancelled (so far)


............and yet they wonder why they're bush-league compared to the NFL/MLB/NBA? How about getting some control over your own league. It's pathetic.
Had the NHL gotten the cap they wanted in 94-95, before salaries really exploded for 10 years without a cap, you wonder where things might be today.

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Old
12-20-2012, 08:51 AM
  #75
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With that record, i'd hope they start getting together earlier... but lord knows we will never see that in the future.
The idea that time is what is needed to get these negotiations done is incredibly naive.

The players don't trust the owners one tiny bit. That is what is impeding a CBA. Not a lack of negotiating time.

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