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NHL Lockout Discusion XXXIII: It's the same old song. **MOD WARNING POST 274

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Old
12-20-2012, 02:36 PM
  #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hullois View Post
Of course let's not bring up the fact that the NHL is already in courts against the PA.
It has been three months of negotiating, on the brink of losing the season. Can you explain why you think they are "already" in courts.....how long should they wait?
Do you know that will be the NHLPA´s next step too? Follow TSN it is pretty good for that.

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12-20-2012, 02:36 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
Just so I'm clear, Fehr has states that he wants and is willing to negotiate further. Berryman has stated that this will not happen until...what? The NHLPA accepts the offer that was explicitly pulled off the table and no longer exists?

More games by Bettman and co via attempting to establish false panic within the PA. Negotiating in good faith? What a joke. Ever since Bettman has run the league (into the ground it seems) this has been his M.O.

It's not negotiating when you refuse to discuss until the other side capitulates. Spin it however you want.

And for the record, I feel both sides: owners and players, share part of he blame. But I feel that the real problem is with the commissioner.
But you're putting spin on your analysis of the situation. NEITHER side is refusing to come to the table. The problem is that NEITHER side is showing a willingness to be flexible in order to get the other side to the table. The PA has admitted that it seems that the deal is there to be had but neither side wants to make the first move. That's blame that both sides have to share.

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12-20-2012, 02:38 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by njdevil26 View Post
The reason the NHL is in the courts is because the dumbest person on the planet can still see that the decertification/disclaimer threat is nothing more than a negotiating tactic because it worked in the other leagues. There's quotes from EVERYONE about how it's used in a negotiation.

Bettman and Daly are right to be pro-active and not sit back and let themselves be taken advantage of as Fehr tries to scare them.

Man this board is so pro owners its not even funny. You think the NHL is not using negociation tactics and is not trying to scare the players? How many "final offers" are at now?

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12-20-2012, 02:38 PM
  #254
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Bettman has run this league into the ground. Fehr has an extraordinary record and receives praise from people like the former MLB commissioner. Yet, Fehr is the problem because he isn't negotiating in good faith.

This is a joke! No one likes Bettman up until the dog and pony show of about a month ago. People bought was Gary was selling for some bloody reason, and now he's a saint.

He's an awful commissioner who has extended this league beyond its means. This lockout is the fruits of his labour.

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12-20-2012, 02:40 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
Phone call works two ways.
League has said they are tired of negotiating against themselves.
If the PA has anything they'd like to discuss all they have to do is make a call.
Negociating against themselves? True that the owners are giving so much right now... hahaha

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12-20-2012, 02:41 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
Bettman has run this league into the ground. Fehr has an extraordinary record and receives praise from people like the former MLB commissioner. Yet, Fehr is the problem because he isn't negotiating in good faith.

This is a joke! No one likes Bettman up until the dog and pony show of about a month ago. People bought was Gary was selling for some bloody reason, and now he's a saint.

He's an awful commissioner who has extended this league beyond its means. This lockout is the fruits of his labour.
What if I can't decide which one of the two I dislike more?

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Old
12-20-2012, 02:41 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by HockeyCrazed101 View Post
But you're putting spin on your analysis of the situation. NEITHER side is refusing to come to the table. The problem is that NEITHER side is showing a willingness to be flexible in order to get the other side to the table. The PA has admitted that it seems that the deal is there to be had but neither side wants to make the first move. That's blame that both sides have to share.
The NHLPA is willing, and wants, to negotiate further. Daly has states there is no point in negotiating at this time. Where am I spinning this?

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12-20-2012, 02:43 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
Bettman has run this league into the ground. Fehr has an extraordinary record and receives praise from people like the former MLB commissioner. Yet, Fehr is the problem because he isn't negotiating in good faith.

This is a joke! No one likes Bettman up until the dog and pony show of about a month ago. People bought was Gary was selling for some bloody reason, and now he's a saint.

He's an awful commissioner who has extended this league beyond its means. This lockout is the fruits of his labour.
Are you sure you are not biased?

You should really check out some revenue stats for the NHL since Bettman started.

RECORD ATTENDANCE
RECORD AMOUNT OF FRANCHISES
RECORD EMPLOYMENT
RECORD REVENUE
RECORD NHL PLAYERS IN THE LEAGUE.....

I would hate to see what kind of standards you set for people around you.


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Last edited by Jet: 12-20-2012 at 03:02 PM. Reason: use report post function.
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12-20-2012, 02:43 PM
  #259
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Each time they negotiate, the NHLPA has tended to dick around quite a bit. Daly said he would like to know the agenda before meeting again, but he was open to meeting at any time.

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12-20-2012, 02:44 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Hullois View Post
Man this board is so pro owners its not even funny. You think the NHL is not using negociation tactics and is not trying to scare the players? How many "final offers" are at now?
I disagree. I think this board is filled with mostly middle of the road middle class hard working Americans/Canadians that SHOULD be on the side of the players and against billionaire owners.

Don Fehr has been so detrimental to the process... also he did a disservice to the union's cause by not advising players to keep their yaps shut.

Tell me, given you know how contracts work (some don't, it's a pain in the butt) and how they are paid out according to HRR split, what other pro sports league guarantees cash forked over by franchises go make sure all players under contract get the 100% full amount regardless of league revenue? I think the league has been more than generous.

Add to that, the owners are ENTITLED to use whatever tactics they want and can do whatever they want to scare the players... after all, the players are people who get paid an average of 2.4-2.7 million dollars per year to PLAY A GAME. It's unbelievable how these guys think they can run their mouths and say/do whatever they want. They should also be kissing the league's ass and feet for keeping around GUARANTEED contracts unlike the NFL.

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12-20-2012, 02:46 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
Are you sure you are not biased?

You should really check out some revenue stats for the NHL since Bettman started.

RECORD ATTENDANCE
RECORD AMOUNT OF FRANCHISES
RECORD EMPLOYMENT
RECORD REVENUE
RECORD NHL PLAYERS IN THE LEAGUE.....

I would hate to see what kind of standards you set for people around you.


EDIT: To the mods, is there really a point to this guy´s post? Just trolling
Then the owners' position is one of contradiction.

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12-20-2012, 02:46 PM
  #262
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UFC is PPV though, where as hockey coverage comes with cable (or w/e you have).
Maybe a few years ago yes. But ever since the company bought other their competitors and hired as many as 50 or more fighters, as well as new divisions, there are a lot more events that are on regular tv. There is a reason that Fox got involved. I would say the tv event's out number the ppv's by a great margin. And even if you have the ppv on the same night, they always air the 2 or 3 hour premlims before the main card on cable.

Not trying to discuss another sport here but i am just trying to prove that the NHL is an even smaller fish in a smaller pond, especially if they interrupt their service in an era where everything moves so fast technologically that all it takes is the next new best thing to drive people away from a brand.

The NHL should really hire some NFL guys for their marketing or how to run their league in general, there are too many old men that have no idea how to transition their game into the 21st century. The problem with the old boys club is, sometimes you have very poor business men that have a team just because their buddy has one, and on and on it goes. Its an exclusive club with selfish shady old men who would rather see the league burn to the ground then to start repairing the damage.

Remember the Chicago Blackhawks owner who refused to put games on tv because he believed all the money was in gate sales? when he died the Blackhawks ownership to change their philosophy lol. I believe his son took over.

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12-20-2012, 02:48 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Digger12 View Post
Minor quibble: SOME players draw the fans in. IMO only a small percentage of players actually generate fan interest all on their own. The rest is generated by the team as a singular entity.

Being an Oiler fan, I've never once bought a ticket or PPV thinking "Ooh, Shawn Horcoff is playing tonight...can't wait!"
I totally agree with this. Though I love the players on the Jets if they were all replaced tomorrow, I'd still love the Jets and watch them. I did NOT watch the Moose when they were here.

I pay for Jets merch. Before the Jets I bought Oilers merch. I did NOT pay for AHL merch.

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12-20-2012, 02:49 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by njdevil26 View Post
I disagree. I think this board is filled with mostly middle of the road middle class hard working Americans/Canadians that SHOULD be on the side of the players and against billionaire owners.

Don Fehr has been so detrimental to the process... also he did a disservice to the union's cause by not advising players to keep their yaps shut.

Tell me, given you know how contracts work (some don't, it's a pain in the butt) and how they are paid out according to HRR split, what other pro sports league guarantees cash forked over by franchises go make sure all players under contract get the 100% full amount regardless of league revenue? I think the league has been more than generous.

Add to that, the owners are ENTITLED to use whatever tactics they want and can do whatever they want to scare the players... after all, the players are people who get paid an average of 2.4-2.7 million dollars per year to PLAY A GAME. It's unbelievable how these guys think they can run their mouths and say/do whatever they want. They should also be kissing the league's ass and feet for keeping around GUARANTEED contracts unlike the NFL.
No offense, but this is nonsense in my opinion. The league is a partnership and should be treated as such. Without the players the owners have nothing. Inversely, without the owners the players have nothing.

It's a union that should not be so dis functional. Both sides rely on one another.

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12-20-2012, 02:49 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
The NHLPA is willing, and wants, to negotiate further. Daly has states there is no point in negotiating at this time. Where am I spinning this?
NHLPA wants NHL to make the next proposal and hasn't indicated any willingness to change their position. So what would be the purpose of these negotiations?

Daly has said that there is no reason to meet unless there is something new to discuss. What is unreasonable about that position?

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12-20-2012, 02:49 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
Then the owners' position is one of contradiction.
Can you explain???? Or just more conjecture?


Do you understand the difference between "Profit" and "Revenue"

There is this great website called Wikipedia. Check it out!

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12-20-2012, 02:54 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
No offense, but this is nonsense in my opinion. The league is a partnership and should be treated as such. Without the players the owners have nothing. Inversely, without the owners the players have nothing.

It's a union that should not be so dis functional. Both sides rely on one another.
Honestly, I just disagree with you. Without the players you know what the owners would have? A line out the door with millions of people willing to accept anything over minimum wage to play their favorite sport for a living.

You tell these guys to dust off the old resume and try to get a job like the rest of us. Better yet you hear the reports and news coming from Russia. Tell an American/Canadian born player with kids and families to pack up and move to Russia to play in the KHL. How do you think that will go over? The players think they are entitled to everything under the sun. It's all about the dollar sign my friend. Look at college athletes. They are just happy to be there... they don't get paid yet they have undying loyalty and pride for the uniform they put on. Professional athletes could give two craps about who taught them, who employed them, who gave them publicity. How many guys do you see taking a hometown discount in this salary cap system? The average salary goes WAY up every year.

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12-20-2012, 02:56 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
Are you sure you are not biased?

You should really check out some revenue stats for the NHL since Bettman started.

RECORD ATTENDANCE
RECORD AMOUNT OF FRANCHISES
RECORD EMPLOYMENT
RECORD REVENUE
RECORD NHL PLAYERS IN THE LEAGUE.....

I would hate to see what kind of standards you set for people around you.


EDIT: To the mods, is there really a point to this guy´s post? Just trolling
3 of your records are the same thing (# of franchises, employment, # of players) and the other 2 don't mean squat if they don't translate to profit. Bettman hasn't been nearly as great as you seem to like to pretend.

That said, screw the league and the PA if they cancel another season. At that point I will wait for the KHL to start putting teams in NA.

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12-20-2012, 03:00 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
Bettman has run this league into the ground.
So much into the ground that players salaries have increased over 400% during his tenure.

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12-20-2012, 03:02 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
3 of your records are the same thing (# of franchises, employment, # of players) and the other 2 don't mean squat if they don't translate to profit. Bettman hasn't been nearly as great as you seem to like to pretend.

That said, screw the league and the PA if they cancel another season. At that point I will wait for the KHL to start putting teams in NA.
Can you explain how....
Most franchises, most employment(inot including nhl players and most NHL players in the NHL are all the same???????

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12-20-2012, 03:03 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
The NHLPA is willing, and wants, to negotiate further. Daly has states there is no point in negotiating at this time. Where am I spinning this?
You're spinning it by generalizing Daly's comments incorrectly.

Daly has said that there is no point in meeting if neither side is open to bending from their position otherwise the meeting will just be a regurgitation of all their previous meetings. He said that the PA knows where the league stands and the league is more than willing to get back to the table but there needs to be something new to work with.

The league is showing an unwillingness to to bend from their position until/unless the PA is open to discussing alternate ways for both sides to come closer to bridge the gap between them.

The PA is showing that same unwiilngness to be open to flexibility until/unless the league initiates a request to speak with them.

I'm going by the comments that have come from the mouths of both sides. BOTH sides have said they are willing to meet. BOTH sides have said they are waiting on the other side to make the move.

They're both playing the exact same game here and if you don't see that, then I'm inclined to think your spinning selective information to avoid seeing that both sides are just as guilty and using the exact same strategy which has resulted in this standstill.

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12-20-2012, 03:03 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by njdevil26 View Post
Honestly, I just disagree with you. Without the players you know what the owners would have? A line out the door with millions of people willing to accept anything over minimum wage to play their favorite sport for a living.

You tell these guys to dust off the old resume and try to get a job like the rest of us. Better yet you hear the reports and news coming from Russia. Tell an American/Canadian born player with kids and families to pack up and move to Russia to play in the KHL. How do you think that will go over? The players think they are entitled to everything under the sun. It's all about the dollar sign my friend. Look at college athletes. They are just happy to be there... they don't get paid yet they have undying loyalty and pride for the uniform they put on. Professional athletes could give two craps about who taught them, who employed them, who gave them publicity. How many guys do you see taking a hometown discount in this salary cap system? The average salary goes WAY up every year.
I agree, to a point. But we must remember that this is not the NFL. The Washington Redskins, for example, have an extremely powerful brand. The same cannot be said about the NHL notwithstanding a handful of clubs.

Moreover, one of the greatest critiques about the NHL, up until the love affair with Mr Bettman, has been the fact that they don't market their players well enough. Or, in some circles, people believe the league hasn't grown more because the players are "too nice". That is, not enough controversy (just an example). In both cases, this would go against your view. If the players don't really matter, and it's all about the jersey, why would any of that matter.

I'm not saying the players make the league alone. It is true that the Maple Leafs, Montreal and so on carry a name with them and draw. But this is not enough to sustain the league. It is a joint effort of players and owners. That is my point and I will stand by it.

As for addressing how much these players make, of course I believe it to be absurd. I think the amount the owners make is absurd as well. I also believe the "risk" argument is equally ludicrous. Every player risks their livelihood every time they step onto the ice. Within this context, the risk is shared. The owners risk their money, and the players risk their physical (and mental) health. Which also equates to money in the short term and long term.

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12-20-2012, 03:05 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
NHLPA wants NHL to make the next proposal and hasn't indicated any willingness to change their position. So what would be the purpose of these negotiations?

Daly has said that there is no reason to meet unless there is something new to discuss. What is unreasonable about that position?
This is what's unreasonable:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ESPN
NHL Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly, reached by ESPN.com via email Wednesday evening, said the league is willing to resume talks under the right conditions.


"We haven't said we won't meet, but we certainly would want to know what the agenda is and how they intend to proceed,'' Daly said.
I'm reading that as "We're not going to meet with you unless you are willing to take our proposal without any further 'negotiation.'"

Basically, he's putting conditions on further negotiations, which doesn't really seem prudent at this point.

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Old
12-20-2012, 03:07 PM
  #274
Jet
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To the people who are engaging in pissing matches in this thread:

Warnings, infractions, and threadbans are underway. Govern yourselves accordingly.

It is possible to have a lively and heated debate without resorting to disrespectful posting behaviour.

Before you hit post, ensure that your post is respectful and is not spamming. You know it's spamming if you have not advanced the discussion in some manner.

No further warnings will be given on this. Thank you.

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12-20-2012, 03:07 PM
  #275
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I'm not sure. But if people can only post if they 'adding something new' then 99% of the posts should be blocked (Yes, including this one so I will add that it's raining in Vancouver to give something new! )

Seriously, over 90% of the posters made up their minds weeks ago which side they are on. Most on here are pro-owner. Nothing anyone says at this time is going to change anyone's opinion and everyone is going to interpret every bit of new info based on their already preconceived opinions.

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