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NHL Lockout Discusion XXXIII: It's the same old song. **MOD WARNING POST 274

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Old
12-20-2012, 02:07 PM
  #276
lockstock
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Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
No offense, but this is nonsense in my opinion. The league is a partnership and should be treated as such. Without the players the owners have nothing. Inversely, without the owners the players have nothing.

It's a union that should not be so dis functional. Both sides rely on one another.
No, you're only half right. Yes, without the owners, the players have nothing. But without the players, the owners have their billions and regular income. They have the brand of their team and of the NHL. Worst case scenario, they take their ball and go home, huge tax write off and still enjoy their billions. NHL players lose everything and watch their friends' houses and cars get repo'd, wives leave them, lives ruined. There are no life changing losses for the owners. The players are on the precipice of making a decision that could easily put them in the poorhouse.

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12-20-2012, 02:07 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
Are you sure you are not biased?

You should really check out some revenue stats for the NHL since Bettman started.

RECORD ATTENDANCE
RECORD AMOUNT OF FRANCHISES
RECORD EMPLOYMENT
RECORD REVENUE
RECORD NHL PLAYERS IN THE LEAGUE.....

I would hate to see what kind of standards you set for people around you.


EDIT: To the mods, is there really a point to this guy´s post? Just trolling
Pretty much everything you named relates to your second point...number of franchises. Of course that's going to drive up total attendance/revenue/jobs...but what does any of that mean if the economic system is still so out of whack owners can't stop pushing the lockout button?

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Old
12-20-2012, 02:08 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by RedMenace View Post
This is what's unreasonable:



I'm reading that as "We're not going to meet with you unless you are willing to take our proposal without any further 'negotiation.'"

Basically, he's putting conditions on further negotiations, which doesn't really seem prudent at this point.
You're reading it wrong.

He's saying "We won't change our position and from what we can tell you won't change your position so there isn't any point of meeting".

Fehr wants to meet because he has zero intention of giving anything up but think he might milk another concession out of the owners. NHL knows this and that's why they want Fehr to clarify why he wants to meet if he insists upon it.

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12-20-2012, 02:09 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by RedMenace View Post
This is what's unreasonable:



I'm reading that as "We're not going to meet with you unless you are willing to take our proposal without any further 'negotiation.'"

Basically, he's putting conditions on further negotiations, which doesn't really seem prudent at this point.
Or you know, you could read it at face value. The NHL has stated they are not negotiating against itself anymore and wants to know the PAs approach before meeting again...

Do you take a lot of meetings to go over nothing?

"Thank you for coming"
"Do you have anything new to discuss?"
"Nope, do you want to concede anything more?"
"Nope, well this was a waste of time"

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12-20-2012, 02:10 PM
  #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
No offense, but this is nonsense in my opinion. The league is a partnership and should be treated as such. Without the players the owners have nothing. Inversely, without the owners the players have nothing.

It's a union that should not be so dis functional. Both sides rely on one another.
This is so wrong. The players are being paid millions to play a GAME. If anything, they should be humbled by the fact that this is a job millions consider their dream. Let's take eSports for example: players get to play video games (ex. Starcraft) with a lucky few getting salary and/or winning prize money. This money comes primarily from sponsors and/or gaming companies, with ad revenue coming from streaming as well. Without the money that is injected, eSports would not survive/exist. Does that mean eSports would survive with just the players? No, because in the grand scheme of things, these things cost money (and it doesn't just fall from the sky).

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12-20-2012, 02:11 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by njdevil26 View Post
I disagree. I think this board is filled with mostly middle of the road middle class hard working Americans/Canadians that SHOULD be on the side of the players and against billionaire owners.

Don Fehr has been so detrimental to the process... also he did a disservice to the union's cause by not advising players to keep their yaps shut.

Tell me, given you know how contracts work (some don't, it's a pain in the butt) and how they are paid out according to HRR split, what other pro sports league guarantees cash forked over by franchises go make sure all players under contract get the 100% full amount regardless of league revenue? I think the league has been more than generous.

Add to that, the owners are ENTITLED to use whatever tactics they want and can do whatever they want to scare the players... after all, the players are people who get paid an average of 2.4-2.7 million dollars per year to PLAY A GAME. It's unbelievable how these guys think they can run their mouths and say/do whatever they want. They should also be kissing the league's ass and feet for keeping around GUARANTEED contracts unlike the NFL.
So much wrong with this, the owners have no product without the players, nobody would pay for replacement players, therefore they are not entitled to anything either. Both side are using negociation tactics but it seems the way you see it, only Fehr has been detrimental, and Gary "lockout" bettman isn't? The NHL's strategy to try everything they can to discredit Fehr and keep him out of the process, you think that's helping?

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12-20-2012, 02:12 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Hanklite View Post
Or you know, you could read it at face value. The NHL has stated they are not negotiating against itself anymore and wants to know the PAs approach before meeting again...

Do you take a lot of meetings to go over nothing?
I'm going to assume the league is aware of the NHLPA's position in regards to length of contract. Ergo, the league is aware of the NHLPA's approach.

The league is unwilling to move on their position - this is highlighted by Daly's comments. Whereas it could be argued that the NHLPA is potentially willing to move, just not to the extent of the league's current position. Hence, they are willing to meet.

Of course, to paraphrase Daly's own words, this is the "hill they are willing to die on". Meaning, they will not move off their line. That is, they refuse to negotiate.

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12-20-2012, 02:13 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Hullois View Post
So much wrong with this, the owners have no product without the players, nobody would pay for replacement players, therefore they are not entitled to anything either. Both side are using negociation tactics but it seems the way you see it, only Fehr has been detrimental, and Gary "lockout" bettman isn't? The NHL's strategy to try everything they can to discredit Fehr and keep him out of the process, you think that's helping?
Someone should add up the games that have been lost under Bettman's watch. He's the Wayne Gretzky of lost games. I can fully understand criticism of Fehr and the PA. I really don't understand all of the support and in some cases, admiration, for Bettman.

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12-20-2012, 02:14 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
You're reading it wrong.

He's saying "We won't change our position and from what we can tell you won't change your position so there isn't any point of meeting".

Fehr wants to meet because he has zero intention of giving anything up but think he might milk another concession out of the owners. NHL knows this and that's why they want Fehr to clarify why he wants to meet if he insists upon it.
The bolded is the point I'm trying to make. The only person who knows for sure whether or not Fehr is going to actually negotiate is Fehr; Daly is flat out stating that they aren't even going to meet if they don't get a favorable read on the situation. That's not negotiating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanklite View Post
Or you know, you could read it at face value. The NHL has stated they are not negotiating against itself anymore and wants to know the PAs approach before meeting again...

Do you take a lot of meetings to go over nothing?
The NHL says a lot of things, as does the PA; however, I've never heard or seen the PA state "We aren't willing to negotiate further. That was our last, best offer," as the NHL has.

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12-20-2012, 02:16 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
I'm going to assume the league is aware of the NHLPA's position in regards to length of contract. Ergo, the league is aware of the NHLPA's approach.

The league is unwilling to move on their position - this is highlighted by Daly's comments. Whereas it could be argued that the NHLPA is potentially willing to move, just not to the extent of the league's current position. Hence, they are willing to meet.

Of course, to paraphrase Daly's own words, this is the "hill they are willing to die on". Meaning, they will not move off their line. That is, they refuse to negotiate.
You can argue the PA is willing to move? Ok, then why dont they pick up the phone and tell the NHL they are willing to move towards the NHL on contract length.

It's as simple as that. If the NHLPA really was trying to move, they would reach out.

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12-20-2012, 02:17 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
Someone should add up the games that have been lost under Bettman's watch. He's the Wayne Gretzky of lost games. I can fully understand criticism of Fehr and the PA. I really don't understand all of the support and in some cases, admiration, for Bettman.
It's been done many times, he's responsible for over half of all games missed in all 4 pro leagues combined in history

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12-20-2012, 02:18 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by RedMenace View Post
The bolded is the point I'm trying to make. The only person who knows for sure whether or not Fehr is going to actually negotiate is Fehr; Daly is flat out stating that they aren't even going to meet if they don't get a favorable read on the situation. That's not negotiating.



The NHL says a lot of things, as does the PA; however, I've never heard or seen the PA state "We aren't willing to negotiate further. That was our last, best offer," as the NHL has.
Show me the quote that says this from the NHL... Good luck finding it because it doesn't exist.

They have made offers contingent on playing a set number of games, and even then have said they are willing to discuss certain terms of that deal...

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12-20-2012, 02:18 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
Someone should add up the games that have been lost under Bettman's watch. He's the Wayne Gretzky of lost games. I can fully understand criticism of Fehr and the PA. I really don't understand all of the support and in some cases, admiration, for Bettman.
Especially after he's already had two protracted lockouts to 'get it right'. So either they're locking out a third time because of greed, or incompetence in not taking care of these issues once and for all eight years ago. Neither reason speaks well for Bettman and the owners.

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Old
12-20-2012, 02:19 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Hanklite View Post
You can argue the PA is willing to move? Ok, then why dont they pick up the phone and tell the NHL they are willing to move towards the NHL on contract length.

It's as simple as that. If the NHLPA really was trying to move, they would reach out.
Daly received a call just the other day, did he not?

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12-20-2012, 02:19 PM
  #290
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It's been done many times, he's responsible for over half of all games missed in all 4 pro leagues combined in history
I wouldn't say he's totally responsible but he certainly does deserve a good portion of the blame, which is probably what you meant. On the bright side, he's probably not around for the next one.

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12-20-2012, 02:20 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by RedMenace View Post
The bolded is the point I'm trying to make. The only person who knows for sure whether or not Fehr is going to actually negotiate is Fehr; Daly is flat out stating that they aren't going to negotiate if they don't have a favorable read on the situation. That's not negotiating.
So what is the problem? If Fehr is willing to move, he can tell the league and they have a meeting. If he isn't, there isn't any point of a meeting.

It seems you feel a meeting for the sake of having a meeting has value, but it's only going to increase frustrations at this stage unless one side is willing to move. NHL are tired of playing games.

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12-20-2012, 02:21 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
So what is the problem? If Fehr is willing to move, he can tell the league and they have a meeting. If he isn't, there isn't any point of a meeting.

It seems you feel a meeting for the sake of having a meeting has value, but it's only going to increase frustrations at this stage unless one side is willing to move. NHL are tired of playing games.
The leagues refuses to move on length of contracts if one believes what Daly says.

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12-20-2012, 02:22 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by Hullois View Post
So much wrong with this, the owners have no product without the players, nobody would pay for replacement players, therefore they are not entitled to anything either. Both side are using negociation tactics but it seems the way you see it, only Fehr has been detrimental, and Gary "lockout" bettman isn't? The NHL's strategy to try everything they can to discredit Fehr and keep him out of the process, you think that's helping?
Gary Lockout Bettman? This is the problem with how many people view this whole thing. Gary is the figurehead for the owners. He is doing what they want... and in some cases being more generous than what some owners want him to do.
... and don't tell me about how involved Gary is with lockouts considering how many labor issues Fehr went through with the MLB. The players (Fehr) offered to bargain while playing. Want to tell me who won the 1994 World Series?

Go ahead and tell me how professional Fehr is acting with his negotiation tactics, being late to meetings, water breaks that last a half hour, losing his notes, telling the media circus at the NYC hotel that they were so close and about to sign a deal when he just handed the NHL something he KNEW they were going to be upset over.

Please tell me where Gary Bettman has screwed up this process.... Bettman and Daly are the only people (including the owners!) that are interested in getting this game back on the ice. The league is losing sponsorship dollars right now because Gary is trying to ensure the financial stability of the league going forward. In a sense Gary is trying to keep the owners in line to make sure they can't keep making those crazy crazy deals with players.

Owners have to bid against themselves and drive the price up for star players... and I can confidently tell you that no player in the history of this league has said to a GM..." No no no no, I'll take less than that... let's preserve the integrity of the game with a fair contract shall we?"


Look at Allan Walsh's twitter bio... his goal as he states is to "maximize compensation" for his clients. Too many players and agents are thinking like this.

Think about Zach Parise's demands... not even wanting to call teams back that didn't reach his minimum insane bonus demands (Lombardi with LA talked about it). Money outside the system... 30 mil in bonuses that don't count against the cap... .and of course it's the filthy rich millionaires that are doing all the complaining. Where's Stephen Gionta, Ryan Carter, Stu Bickel, Zac Rinaldo, Trevor Lewis, and those types of lower earning players that are actually most likely having some financial trouble now? This whole players fight is about the guys who make the big bucks afraid they won't be able to insure their eighth boat.


Last edited by njdevil26: 12-20-2012 at 02:31 PM.
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Old
12-20-2012, 02:23 PM
  #294
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Daly received a call just the other day, did he not?
And yet no meetings are scheduled...

I am sure the PA said we are willing to compromise or offered new ideas and the NHL said no...

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12-20-2012, 02:25 PM
  #295
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And yet no meetings are scheduled...

I am sure the PA said we are willing to compromise or offered new ideas and the NHL said no...
Again, Daly has stated that they will NOT move off their length of contract. Why is this hard to understand?

In doing so, they are unwilling to negotiate.

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12-20-2012, 02:25 PM
  #296
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I also want to add this. I'm not 100% on the owners side either. There are way to many rich greedy guys there... and that's to be expected. It's up to Fehr and Bettman to bridge the gap, make both sides happy, and get the game back on the ice. From what we've seen, read, and heard through the media... I made my decision to support Bettman and I really think it seems like he's the most interested to get the game back on the ice.

For Fehr... I'm sorry but after lauding the strength of the union, the strength of the membership... and then having the players constantly praise Fehr like Jesus Christ just showed up for dinner at their house... and then go through the disclaimer of interest... it's a JOKE.

I'm sure there have been more lies and fabrications as opposed to truths thrown around on both sides. ... but for us to start trying to assume what's true and what's false is a waste of time because we truly just don't know.

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12-20-2012, 02:27 PM
  #297
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Hearing the NHL will announce later today that its cancelling games through Jan. 14. Hockey hates fans.
JUST CANCEL THE DAMN SEASON ALREADY

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12-20-2012, 02:27 PM
  #298
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Again, Daly has stated that they will NOT move off their length of contract. Why is this hard to understand?

In doing so, they are unwilling to negotiate.
You have to believe that everything is in play. Do you really think Daly and Bettman would DEMAND 5 year term limits if the PA came back and said "you know what? we only need 200 in make whole... not 300. let's get to 50-50 faster like you wanted and we'll take your CBA term."

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12-20-2012, 02:31 PM
  #299
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https://twitter.com/BillSimmons/stat...57601011081216
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JUST CANCEL THE DAMN SEASON ALREADY
Seems as though they are setting Jan 15th up to be the drop dead date....

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12-20-2012, 02:32 PM
  #300
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Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
Again, Daly has stated that they will NOT move off their length of contract. Why is this hard to understand?

In doing so, they are unwilling to negotiate.
And the Union is unwilling to move off their demands of 8 years and limited variance.

Yet, it is just the NHL that is refusing to negotiate...

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