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Messier Vs Yzerman

View Poll Results: Better Career
Mark Messier 68 66.02%
Steve Yzerman 35 33.98%
Voters: 103. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-19-2012, 09:01 PM
  #151
toob
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I realize age (Yzerman was 29 in the 1995 season) can be blamed for his statistical decline, but at the same time Messier boosted his production despite reaching that age (best adjusted PPG seasons were at age 29, 31, 35), the difference being that he was now the main guy when he wasn’t before.
But they cant be compared directly with just age/being the man as the variables because in Yzerman's case the herniated disc and new role as well probably did in the goals and numbers respectively as much as age.

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12-20-2012, 08:26 AM
  #152
pdd
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Ok. Here's my breakdown of the 83-84 Oilers. The numbers represents the total of:

How many times player A assisted on player B's goals
How many times player B assisted on player A's goals
How many times players A and B both assisted on someone else's goals

Broken down by ES/PP/SH.

These totals are for both regular season and playoffs.


Even Strength Even Strength #
C Gretzky RW Kurri 81 (64GP)
C Gretzky D Coffey 42 (80GP)
C Gretzky LW Pouzar 24 (67GP)
C Gretzky LW Messier 16 (73GP)
C Gretzky RW Anderson 13 (80GP)
C Gretzky LW Hunter 10 (80GP)
C Gretzky LW Summanen 6 (21GP)
C Gretzky LW Semenko 5 (52GP)

Power Play Power Play #
C Gretzky D Coffey 20 (80GP)
C Gretzky RW Kurri 19 (64GP)
C Gretzky LW Messier 16 (73GP)
C Gretzky RW Anderson 14 (80GP)
C Gretzky LW Pouzar 3 (67GP)
C Gretzky LW Hunter 1 (80GP)
C Gretzky LW Summanen 1 (21GP)
I think it's pretty clear Messier was with Gretzky on the PP. And that there were a good portion of games where he played with Gretzky at ES. Remember, the offensive "machine" was Gretzky/Coffey/Kurri. The stats show that pretty clearly here. So arguing that because Messier didn't score most of his ES points with Gretzky is silly, as he still scored 24.6% of his ES points with Gretzky.

It's notable that Gretzky's highest scoring linemates - Kurri and Pouzar - missed 16 and 13, respectively. Who played the wing when they were out? Were they out at the same time?

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12-20-2012, 08:58 AM
  #153
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I think it's pretty clear Messier was with Gretzky on the PP. And that there were a good portion of games where he played with Gretzky at ES. Remember, the offensive "machine" was Gretzky/Coffey/Kurri. The stats show that pretty clearly here. So arguing that because Messier didn't score most of his ES points with Gretzky is silly, as he still scored 24.6% of his ES points with Gretzky.

It's notable that Gretzky's highest scoring linemates - Kurri and Pouzar - missed 16 and 13, respectively. Who played the wing when they were out? Were they out at the same time?
I must be missing where you got 24.6% from.

Based on this:

Year Gretzky Messier Gretzky and Messier
1980 99 28 2
1981 106 49 9
1982 147 72 16
1983 131 70 13
1984 138 65 12
1985 147 34 3
1986 141 52 7
1987 124 67 7

the highest % was 22.2 in 1982.

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Old
12-20-2012, 09:35 AM
  #154
overpass
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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
Perhaps showing where Messier ranks on Gretzky's list would add a little bit more?
It certainly would. Since Gretzky scored many more points than Messier, Messier obviously ranks lower on Gretzky's list than Gretzky does on Messier's list.

ES points only. I've included everyone who shared at least 5 ES points with Gretzky - he played with so many different players in some seasons that it's hard to narrow it down to top 3 or top 5.

1979-80 99
Blair MacDonald 53
Brett Callighen 32
Pat Price 12
Don Ashby 9
Doug Hicks 9
Risto Siltanen 9
Lee Fogolin 8
Kevin Lowe 5
Dave Semenko 5
1980-81 106
Jari Kurri 32
Brett Callighen 29
Blair MacDonald 16
Kevin Lowe 13
Pat Price 10
Paul Coffey 10
Risto Siltanen 10
Mark Messier 9
Lee Fogolin 9
Glenn Anderson 7
Dave Semenko 7
Don Murdoch 5
1981-82 147
Jari Kurri 39
Glenn Anderson 32
Dave Lumley 31
Paul Coffey 25
Mark Messier 16
Dave Hunter 14
Brett Callighen 12
Pat Hughes 11
Lee Fogolin 10
Risto Siltanen 9
Garry Lariviere 9
Dave Semenko 9
Doug Hicks 9
Kevin Lowe 6
Charlie Huddy 6
1982-83 131
Jari Kurri 71
Paul Coffey 27
Charlie Huddy 19
Glenn Anderson 17
Kevin Lowe 15
Mark Messier 13
Jaroslav Pouzar 12
Dave Semenko 10
Dave Lumley 8
Randy Gregg 6
Tom Roulston 6
Willy Lindstrom 5
1983-84 138
Jari Kurri 66
Paul Coffey 37
Jaroslav Pouzar 21
Mark Messier 12
Willy Lindstrom 12
Charlie Huddy 12
Glenn Anderson 11
Randy Gregg 10
Dave Hunter 10
Kevin Lowe 9
Pat Hughes 8
Don Jackson 6
Grant Fuhr 5
1984-85 147
Jari Kurri 86
Mike Krushelnyski 42
Paul Coffey 38
Charlie Huddy 15
Don Jackson 8
Kevin Lowe 7
Randy Gregg 6
Glenn Anderson 6
Dave Hunter 6
Dave Semenko 5
Mark Napier 5
Lee Fogolin 5
Larry Melnyk 5
1985-86 141
Jari Kurri 70
Paul Coffey 47
Glenn Anderson 24
Dave Hunter 17
Charlie Huddy 10
Raimo Summanen 9
Dave Semenko 8
Mike Krushelnyski 8
Mark Messier 7
Lee Fogolin 7
Mark Napier 6
Dave Lumley 6
Don Jackson 6
Randy Gregg 6
Marty McSorley 5
Kevin Lowe 5
1986-87 124
Jari Kurri 60
Esa Tikkanen 48
Glenn Anderson 17
Mike Krushelnyski 12
Craig Muni 12
Kevin Lowe 11
Steve Smith 11
Paul Coffey 10
Randy Gregg 8
Charlie Huddy 8
Mark Messier 7

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Old
12-20-2012, 09:43 AM
  #155
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I think "Messier played with Gretzky on the power play" is a bit of a red herring. Of course he did, but it's not clear that Gretzky's presence helped him score more points. If you look at Messier' performance record, he scored more points on the PP after Gretzky left, even when adjusted for league PP scoring levels. This is because Messier got more playing time after Gretzky left, and also because Wayne Gretzky wasn't a demi-god on the power play. He was just another very good, high scoring forward (not too different from Stastny, Dionne, Hawerchuk, or Savard.) Messier arguably had his PP totals boosted more by Brian Leetch than by Wayne Gretzky.

Here are the stats.

Mark Messier on the PP
1979-80 3
Blair MacDonald 2
Ron Chipperfield 1
Pat Price 1
Al Hamilton 1
Doug Hicks 1
1980-81 11
Risto Siltanen 4
Wayne Gretzky 4
Glenn Anderson 4
Pat Price 2
Don Murdoch 2
1981-82 15
Wayne Gretzky 9
Matti Hagman 4
Paul Coffey 3
Risto Siltanen 3
Glenn Anderson 3
1982-83 32
Wayne Gretzky 18
Glenn Anderson 13
Paul Coffey 9
Ken Linseman 6
Charlie Huddy 4
1983-84 25
Wayne Gretzky 12
Paul Coffey 11
Glenn Anderson 7
Jari Kurri 5
Kevin Lowe 3
1984-85 12
Glenn Anderson 8
Wayne Gretzky 4
Paul Coffey 3
Jari Kurri 3
Mark Napier 2
1985-86 23
Glenn Anderson 12
Wayne Gretzky 11
Paul Coffey 7
Jari Kurri 5
Charlie Huddy 3
1986-87 28
Wayne Gretzky 17
Paul Coffey 11
Jari Kurri 9
Glenn Anderson 7
Steve Smith 2

Wayne Gretzky on the PP
1979-80 36
Blair MacDonald 21
Brett Callighen 11
Risto Siltanen 11
Doug Hicks 6
Don Ashby 4
1980-81 51
Risto Siltanen 14
Jari Kurri 14
Brett Callighen 12
Glenn Anderson 9
Blair MacDonald 9
1981-82 57
Risto Siltanen 20
Paul Coffey 19
Glenn Anderson 15
Jari Kurri 11
Mark Messier 9
1982-83 54
Paul Coffey 19
Mark Messier 18
Glenn Anderson 17
Jari Kurri 15
Charlie Huddy 10
1983-84 45
Paul Coffey 17
Jari Kurri 16
Glenn Anderson 13
Mark Messier 12
Charlie Huddy 6
1984-85 43
Paul Coffey 21
Jari Kurri 19
Mike Krushelnyski 12
Glenn Anderson 9
Charlie Huddy 7
1985-86 53
Jari Kurri 27
Glenn Anderson 21
Paul Coffey 19
Mark Messier 11
Mike Krushelnyski 9
1986-87 46
Paul Coffey 22
Mark Messier 17
Jari Kurri 15
Esa Tikkanen 9
Glenn Anderson 7

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Old
12-20-2012, 09:45 AM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I must be missing where you got 24.6% from.

Based on this:

Year Gretzky Messier Gretzky and Messier
1980 99 28 2
1981 106 49 9
1982 147 72 16
1983 131 70 13
1984 138 65 12
1985 147 34 3
1986 141 52 7
1987 124 67 7

the highest % was 22.2 in 1982.
SaintPatrick33 posted that Messier shared 16 ES points with Gretzky in 1983-84. My source only shows 12. (12 at ES, 12 on the PP, and 5 SH). Not sure why the numbers don't line up.

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12-20-2012, 09:52 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
The numbers overpass provided indicate that 15% of Messier’s ES points were shared with Gretzky over that 8-year period. This probably means that about 19% of Messier’s ES TOI was with Gretzky. So, roughly speaking, about 3 minutes a game on average.
There's no way to estimate that. Mikael Samuelsson played in Vancouver and scored about half of his points with one or both Sedins. At times he played on their line. Most Vancouver fans will tell you that he played almost no time with them. If true, why did he share so much scoring with them?

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Mmm hmmm, Messier avoided the top defensive defensemen and forwards because he was one himself, and had to go up against the other teams’ top guys himself!
The funny thing is there are written statements of "Messier is the best defensive forward", yet in his career he only had two top ten finishes. 1992 and 1996. 9th and 8th. That's the only time he could be legitimately called "one of the best defensive forwards". Thirteen years into his career, Yzerman had been a Selke finalist. Four years later? Yzerman would win the Selke.

Messier's Selke voting record betrays the idea of him being used in a defensive role in any serious capacity. It certainly didn't happen in the regular season; he might have received more votes than Kurri or Tikkanen. Perhaps he'd have won a Selke.

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I’m surprised that you’re so sure that if Yzerman went somewhere where he wasn’t “the man” and Messier went somewhere where he was, that their scoring might change the way I’m suggesting. Because that is pretty much what happened to Messier – once he was “the man”, he scored a lot more. And once Yzerman wasn’t anymore – following Fedorov’s emergence – he saw a drop.
I specified that if they switched roles, Yzerman would still outscore Messier. That's a big difference than just "any" team. Detroit had NO wingers and mediocre defensemen, Edmonton had HHOF wingers and defensemen.

Quote:
I realize age (Yzerman was 29 in the 1995 season) can be blamed for his statistical decline, but at the same time Messier boosted his production despite reaching that age (best adjusted PPG seasons were at age 29, 31, 35), the difference being that he was now the main guy when he wasn’t before.
No. Yzerman's knee was rapidly deteriorating and he suffered a neck injury in the 1993-94 season that caused him to missed a third of the year. His mobility wasn't there the way it had been. If he still had full health like he did at the start of 1987-88, he'd have been destroying the league offensively.

Quote:
I get the argument that a stronger team can boost your production, but it’s just not that easy. It’s simple to argue the opposing point and provide evidence for it as well. Both are probably true at different times and I don’t think the evidence in this case points where you’d like it to.
If Messier had suffered a serious knee injury in 1984, and then suffered a severe neck injury in 1990, do you think he's the same player? He's certainly not winning any Hart trophies.

Quote:
What do you want me to say? “ok, you got me on semantics”? Nothing I said was untrue. That poster turned 7 years into 10, and turned mediocre into terrible. We should stick to facts and not wild exaggerations.
Below .500 teams are not good teams, it's at least 8 years. Which is "about ten"

Quote:
It’s actually not like that, because even if we were to trust raw numbers like that we would still have to make massive adjustments for the fact that Crosby easily led his line in scoring and Juneau wasn’t close to his line’s scoring lead. No one with a background in hockey history or stats would ever make that claim.
In the manner of "second on team in scoring in higher era>first on team in scoring in lower era" it is exactly the same. You are going into the details of a particular example to suggest why Messier's second place finish is better than Yzerman's first-place finish.

Quote:
Anyways, I’ve done the math before and even adjusted for age, and Messier was clearly a better playoff producer than Yzerman in his career.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=954

I no longer have the sheet.

But if playoff scoring finishes do it for you:

2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 6, 10, 16, 17, 18

vs.

1, 2, 6, 12, 12, 14, 20, 37, 39, 59
It's hard to judge on playoff scoring finishes without knowing where they finished on their team, how far their team went, etc.

Quote:
As for Yzerman having a defensive role, it sounds like you want to have it both ways. Messier had a defensive role on the Oilers too. He’d have scored more, if he didn’t. Right?
Messier was sometimes used in defensive matchups, such as the Trottier example. He did not have a defensive ROLE.

Quote:
Do people still think he has top-6 talent? All I’ve ever heard is that he’s a major disappointment and overpaid. In Toronto he was semi-responsible defensively but nothing special, and was quite soft.
Anyone who saw Stajan's short stint on Iginla's line last year should be able to say he didn't look out of place, and still has the skill level he did when he was traded for.

Quote:
PP totals have not been a big part of Messier’s totals. Compared to other players who scored raw totals in his range, he typically was among the lowest in terms of what percentage of them were PP-driven.
Messier's biggest year (90) saw him score 71 ESP and 47 PPP. In 92 he posted 65 and 33. Yzerman those same years was 87/37 and 66/27. In 88-89, Yzerman posted 101/46. In 88-89, Lemieux had 102/79; Gretzky had 100/53.

Messier isn't Mario Lemieux for PP scoring, but he's not Steve Yzerman for ES scoring.

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12-20-2012, 09:58 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I must be missing where you got 24.6% from.

Based on this:

Year Gretzky Messier Gretzky and Messier
1980 99 28 2
1981 106 49 9
1982 147 72 16
1983 131 70 13
I don't know how I'm supposed to trust your numbers when you can't even get the simple ones right.

In 1982-83 at ES Gretzky had 132, Messier had 69.

Quote:
1984 138 65 12
1985 147 34 3
1986 141 52 7
1987 124 67 7

the highest % was 22.2 in 1982.

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12-20-2012, 10:10 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I don't know how I'm supposed to trust your numbers when you can't even get the simple ones right.

In 1982-83 at ES Gretzky had 132, Messier had 69.
The numbers aren't that simple. The Hockey Summary Project boxscores have Gretzky scoring 131 ES points. The NHL only reported special teams goals for 1982-83, not special teams assists, so there are no official numbers that say otherwise.

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12-20-2012, 11:02 AM
  #160
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Is gaining confidence in an extra significant digit going to severely alter how much this single detail weighs in the grand scheme of things, or has tunnel vision taken over?

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12-20-2012, 12:01 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Is gaining confidence in an extra significant digit going to severely alter how much this single detail weighs in the grand scheme of things, or has tunnel vision taken over?
Shouldn't but when one is grasping at straws...

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12-20-2012, 12:12 PM
  #162
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At this point you are starting to zero in on some ridiculous things. I think we know what that means.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
There's no way to estimate that. Mikael Samuelsson played in Vancouver and scored about half of his points with one or both Sedins. At times he played on their line. Most Vancouver fans will tell you that he played almost no time with them. If true, why did he share so much scoring with them?
There is no need to argue about something like that. There are sites that keep detailed stats about exactly how long any player played with another.

My estimate was very simplified but it was based on what I had observed with other players. If yougo back and start over using Gretzky’s numbers (which are probably a more reliable sample size) you get the same general answer.

So quit complaining and do better. Make a hypothesis of your own and back it up.

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The funny thing is there are written statements of "Messier is the best defensive forward", yet in his career he only had two top ten finishes. 1992 and 1996. 9th and 8th. That's the only time he could be legitimately called "one of the best defensive forwards". Thirteen years into his career, Yzerman had been a Selke finalist. Four years later? Yzerman would win the Selke.
No one argues that Yzerman eventually reached a level of defensive play that Messier never did. But throughout most of Messier’s prime there were only 3 ballots cast, so relying on Selke voting much further than the first few is pretty sketchy. All it proves is that not many people saw him as top-3 in the league.

Quote:
If Messier had suffered a serious knee injury in 1984, and then suffered a severe neck injury in 1990, do you think he's the same player? He's certainly not winning any Hart trophies.
But he didn’t, did he?

And how does that answer what I said at all?

Quote:
Below .500 teams are not good teams, it's at least 8 years. Which is "about ten"
The poster used the term “terrible”. Let’s cut the sematic BS, please, and at least agree that a team with 75+ points, although below .500, is not “terrible”. The 40, 66, and even 69 and 70 point wings that missed the playoffs, I could liberally agree were terrible. The ones with 76, 78, 80, 93 points – that’s not terrible.

Nothing I said has been invalidated. The statement “Steve Yzerman played on a terrible Red Wings team for about 10 years of his career” is absolutely false, at best patently misleading if you’re being very liberal and generous.

Quote:
In the manner of "second on team in scoring in higher era>first on team in scoring in lower era" it is exactly the same. You are going into the details of a particular example to suggest why Messier's second place finish is better than Yzerman's first-place finish.
It was a 1st place finish. And if you go by “adjusted adjusted” scoring (which utilizes the proven concept that into the later 1990s although scoring dropped, only about half that drop manifested itself in drops in elite 1st line forwards), Messier’s playoff PPG in 1990 was still 13% higher than Yzerman’s in 1998. I know I was quoting raw totals to start with, but I wouldn’t do that to be misleading. Adjusted properly, it’s still a good deal higher.

Quote:
It's hard to judge on playoff scoring finishes without knowing where they finished on their team, how far their team went, etc.
No comment on the study that adjusts their playoff scoring based on age and league scoring and still puts Messier 8% ahead per game over a 20% larger sample?

Quote:
Messier was sometimes used in defensive matchups, such as the Trottier example. He did not have a defensive ROLE.
How is this much different from Yzerman having Fedorov and Draper? You make it sound like he played every shift against Sakic and Modano. Obviously he didn’t.

Quote:
Messier's biggest year (90) saw him score 71 ESP and 47 PPP. In 92 he posted 65 and 33. Yzerman those same years was 87/37 and 66/27. In 88-89, Yzerman posted 101/46. In 88-89, Lemieux had 102/79; Gretzky had 100/53.

Messier isn't Mario Lemieux for PP scoring, but he's not Steve Yzerman for ES scoring.
You cherrypicked the two seasons in which PP points comprised a larger percentage of his total. This was the exception throughout his prime – not the norm.

And no one disputes that Yzerman had the higher offensive peak. But obviously that is not the only thing that you judge players on, obviously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I don't know how I'm supposed to trust your numbers when you can't even get the simple ones right.

In 1982-83 at ES Gretzky had 132, Messier had 69.
Seriously buddy?

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12-20-2012, 12:27 PM
  #163
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
There's no way to estimate that. Mikael Samuelsson played in Vancouver and scored about half of his points with one or both Sedins. At times he played on their line. Most Vancouver fans will tell you that he played almost no time with them. If true, why did he share so much scoring with them?
what canucks fans have ever said that? are you just inventing strawmen here?

it's true that in those two years he played with the sedins less than burrows did, but certainly more than any other winger.

he also got the majority of PP icetime on daniel's opposite wing.

and there were times when vigneault would put the burrows and kesler back together, and samuelsson would slide up.

but i think most importantly for samuelsson's stats, after every penalty, vigneault would put the sedins on with samuelsson instead of burrows, because burrows would be tired from killing the penalty. during the sedins' art ross years, many many goals were produced immediately after killing a penalty or allowing a PP goal against.

but this is all off topic. the real point is, 1. who has ever said that? and 2. does the possibly faulty memories of canucks fans, who remain imaginary until you substantiate this, prove anything about our collective memories of the early 80s oilers? so many statements that hinge on analogies that don't work, so much faulty logic, so much dishonest arguing; i feel like i'm grading undergraduate essays here.

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12-20-2012, 01:09 PM
  #164
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What made some of those 66-70 point Detroit teams rather bad, was that they were usually hitting those point totals in a historically weak division. 66-70 points is below avg. obviously, but in the Patrick many years, it might indicate ~average team... but in Detroit's division, it was even worse than it looked. I look at it as a negative for Yzerman that he couldn't get those teams to/above mediocre, and that a couple years in which he was injured, they actually had a better record without him.

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12-20-2012, 01:39 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
SaintPatrick33 posted that Messier shared 16 ES points with Gretzky in 1983-84. My source only shows 12. (12 at ES, 12 on the PP, and 5 SH). Not sure why the numbers don't line up.
Post season is included in those numbers. Are you also counting shared assists?

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12-20-2012, 01:42 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I think it's pretty clear Messier was with Gretzky on the PP. And that there were a good portion of games where he played with Gretzky at ES. Remember, the offensive "machine" was Gretzky/Coffey/Kurri. The stats show that pretty clearly here. So arguing that because Messier didn't score most of his ES points with Gretzky is silly, as he still scored 24.6% of his ES points with Gretzky.

It's notable that Gretzky's highest scoring linemates - Kurri and Pouzar - missed 16 and 13, respectively. Who played the wing when they were out? Were they out at the same time?
Greztky missed 6 games concurrently with Kurri at one stretch of the season. Also, Hughes and Semenko picked up 15 shares total with Gretzky.

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12-20-2012, 01:53 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Post season is included in those numbers. Are you also counting shared assists?
I didn't include postseason, so that's the difference. I did include shared assists.

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12-20-2012, 02:01 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
I think "Messier played with Gretzky on the power play" is a bit of a red herring. Of course he did, but it's not clear that Gretzky's presence helped him score more points[/B]
This is a very important point because there are at most only 3 points awarded on any goal so playing with 4 or 5 really good guys can just spread the points around sometimes.

Guys make this mistake in fantasy hockey all of the time.

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12-20-2012, 02:09 PM
  #169
Rhiessan71
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
What made some of those 66-70 point Detroit teams rather bad, was that they were usually hitting those point totals in a historically weak division. 66-70 points is below avg. obviously, but in the Patrick many years, it might indicate ~average team... but in Detroit's division, it was even worse than it looked. I look at it as a negative for Yzerman that he couldn't get those teams to/above mediocre, and that a couple years in which he was injured, they actually had a better record without him.
What was the Wings record without Yzerman in the 29 games he missed in 85/86 and the 16 he missed in 87/88?

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12-20-2012, 02:13 PM
  #170
Morgoth Bauglir
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I didn't include postseason, so that's the difference. I did include shared assists.
K, gotcha

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12-20-2012, 02:13 PM
  #171
BraveCanadian
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
What made some of those 66-70 point Detroit teams rather bad, was that they were usually hitting those point totals in a historically weak division. 66-70 points is below avg. obviously, but in the Patrick many years, it might indicate ~average team... but in Detroit's division, it was even worse than it looked. I look at it as a negative for Yzerman that he couldn't get those teams to/above mediocre, and that a couple years in which he was injured, they actually had a better record without him.
I have a very difficult time believing the Dead Wings were better off without Stevie Wonder.

After he got his legs under him he was for all intents and purposes the Red Wings for a few years.

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12-20-2012, 02:18 PM
  #172
Czech Your Math
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
What was the Wings record without Yzerman in the 29 games he missed in 85/86 and the 16 he missed in 87/88?
Don't have data for '86, but we have data for at least two seasons during Yzerman's prime, in which he missed a substantial amount of games (but not for '86 AFAIK): In '88 he missed 16 games (.563 with, .656 without) and in '94 he missed 26 games (.569 with, .654 without). Sure, Yzerman may have been playing through injuries at times during those seasons, but his team didn't just maintain their level in his absence, they significantly increased it (expected .567, actual .655).

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12-20-2012, 02:21 PM
  #173
Rhiessan71
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Don't have data for '86, but we have data for at least two seasons during Yzerman's prime, in which he missed a substantial amount of games (but not for '86 AFAIK): In '88 he missed 16 games (.563 with, .656 without) and in '94 he missed 26 games (.569 with, .654 without). Sure, Yzerman may have been playing through injuries at times during those seasons, but his team didn't just maintain their level in his absence, they significantly increased it (expected .567, actual .655).
16 games is too small of a sample size (it's a difference of only 3 points in 16 games) and gimme a break with the 93/94 team, they were NOT even close to being a mediocre team by that point.

I'm with Brave on this one, the Wings in the mid-late 80's was a much better team with Stevie than without him.

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12-20-2012, 02:45 PM
  #174
Czech Your Math
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
16 games is too small of a sample size (it's a difference of only 3 points in 16 games) and gimme a break with the 93/94 team, they were NOT even close to being a mediocre team by that point.

I'm with Brave on this one, the Wings in the mid-late 80's was a much better team with Stevie than without him.
Didn't say '94 team was mediocre at all... only that they did better when Yzerman was out. That's 42 games, which is enough to get some idea. It certainly doesn't point to a team that was much worse without Yzerman.

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12-20-2012, 02:47 PM
  #175
BraveCanadian
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Didn't say '94 team was mediocre at all... only that they did better when Yzerman was out. That's 42 games, which is enough to get some idea. It certainly doesn't point to a team that was much worse without Yzerman.
In this case the numbers are definitely pointing you in the wrong direction.

At least regarding the 80s teams.. by the 90s they were starting to get more depth but there is still no way they are better over the long haul without Yzerman. That's crazy.

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