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NHL Lockout Discusion XXXIII: It's the same old song. **MOD WARNING POST 274

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Old
12-20-2012, 03:42 PM
  #326
mossey3535
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How many games are there after Jan 14th in a normal schedule? Anyone know?

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12-20-2012, 03:43 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by njdevil26 View Post
The players haven't moved from ANYTHING! As of Sept 15, the old CBA no longer exists and it is not a starting point for right now. The old rules and guidelines do not exist present day.
I think it's reasonable to suggest that the old CBA serves as a benchmark. Otherwise, why not just throw out the cap and present a luxury tax?

If the old CBA holds no basis the two sides could potentially be much further apart.

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12-20-2012, 03:44 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
How many games are there after Jan 14th in a normal schedule? Anyone know?
Oilers have 40

Take the season to the end of April and there's your 48.

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12-20-2012, 03:44 PM
  #329
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Tom Gulitti ‏@TGfireandice
RT @cotsonika: If NHL cancels through Jan. 14, we all know what that means -- soft deadline to cancel season. Some wiggle room, not much.

https://twitter.com/TGfireandice/sta...61131008618496

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12-20-2012, 03:44 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
Why is it up to the NHLPA to do so? Because the owners lessened some of their other demands? Awe, how sweet of them.

I think the NHLPA, and specifically Fehr, understand the negotiating process just fine. It would be incredibly naive for one to think otherwise.
So if I were to give you $100M, you wouldnt expect to give anything back in return... That is the definition of greed.

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12-20-2012, 03:44 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
So what is the problem? If Fehr is willing to move, he can tell the league and they have a meeting. If he isn't, there isn't any point of a meeting.
How do you know he hasn't? Fehr hasn't said ANYTHING regarding movement on issues that we, the public, have access to.

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It seems you feel a meeting for the sake of having a meeting has value, but it's only going to increase frustrations at this stage unless one side is willing to move. NHL are tired of playing games.
I didn't say meeting for the sake of meeting has value. What I did say was, by all accounts, the NHL is placing fairly restrictive conditions upon meeting, whereas the PA is stating "Name the time and place, and we'll be there."

I'm sure the PA is tired of playing games too. You seem to think the NHL is faultless in this charade, but they're just as much to blame as the PA for the lockout lasting as long as it has.

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Originally Posted by Hanklite View Post
Ya think?!
At least I can admit when I've made a mistake.

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Just read your last quote, it goes against your argument...
Goes against my argument? You asked for quotes saying they'd made their best offers, and I provided them.

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12-20-2012, 03:45 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
How many games are there after Jan 14th in a normal schedule? Anyone know?
I'm not sure. I saw an article where they handed out the half way awards for the 2011-2012 season on Jan 10th so I would assume that there are close to 40 or so left? Squeeze some extra ones in and extend the season and we could get 48 hopefully.

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Old
12-20-2012, 03:46 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by njdevil26 View Post
The players haven't moved from ANYTHING! As of Sept 15, the old CBA no longer exists and it is not a starting point for right now. The old rules and guidelines do not exist present day.
Really getting tired of this argument. Of course the previous CBA is some sort of guideline. There are more rules consistent with the previous CBA in the owners proposal than anything else. Both sides are working off of it to some extent.

By your logic, the players have every right to ask for no cap, franchise tags and anything else they want. They're not. It's not like both sides are starting from scratch here.

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12-20-2012, 03:47 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Hanklite View Post
So if I were to give you $100M, you wouldnt expect to give anything back in return... That is the definition of greed.
The owners didn't give the players anything. They proposed to take away a number of "items" and then offered a small amount of it back.

The definition of greed indeed.

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12-20-2012, 03:47 PM
  #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kopistar View Post
Tom Gulitti ‏@TGfireandice
RT @cotsonika: If NHL cancels through Jan. 14, we all know what that means -- soft deadline to cancel season. Some wiggle room, not much.

https://twitter.com/TGfireandice/sta...61131008618496
Ok, everyone needs to stop this. The media is the worst at it. There is no such thing as a soft deadline.

Time is finite, I'm not sure how the players could have believed all this 'that deadline isn't serious' crap.

If T-Funk is right (Canucks had 36 last year at that time), they still have to extend the season to get an extra 8 games in. I understand that they could cancel the All-Star break but they should be viewing the deadline as this weekend to be honest.

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12-20-2012, 03:47 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
The owners didn't give the players anything. They proposed to take away a number of "items" and then offered a small amount of it back.

The definition of greed indeed.
Owners have offered a lot more than the Players.

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12-20-2012, 03:48 PM
  #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
https://twitter.com/BillSimmons/stat...57601011081216
Bill Simmons


JUST CANCEL THE DAMN SEASON ALREADY
If they cancel all the way up until January 15th, I believe that's the final set of games that can be lost before the season is done. I know last time they cancelled the season in February but when Gary said that he couldn't see doing less than a 48 game season, people were calculating a mid January deadline.

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12-20-2012, 03:48 PM
  #338
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Sorry if this has been answered already, but whatever happened with that "done deal" report? lol

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12-20-2012, 03:48 PM
  #339
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correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't game cancellation announcements tended to come at the beginning of the week? are the owners just getting a head start on this because monday's christmas eve?

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12-20-2012, 03:48 PM
  #340
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Originally Posted by HawksFan74 View Post
Really getting tired of this argument. Of course the previous CBA is some sort of guideline. There are more rules consistent with the previous CBA in the owners proposal than anything else. Both sides are working off of it to some extent.

By your logic, the players have every right to ask for no cap, franchise tags and anything else they want. They're not. It's not like both sides are starting from scratch here.
Actually the players can ask for any of those things if they wanted to... and factually, Fehr has mentioned at a few points that he may put the cap back on the table... That was a few months ago... but both sides know if certain things get brought up it would derail the whole process even further. After Fehr told the media the cap may be on the table, Daly mentioned that so would guaranteed contracts.

So both sides could go there if they wanted to.

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12-20-2012, 03:49 PM
  #341
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I'm not sure. I saw an article where they handed out the half way awards for the 2011-2012 season on Jan 10th so I would assume that there are close to 40 or so left? Squeeze some extra ones in and extend the season and we could get 48 hopefully.
FYI hockey-reference shows Henrik played his 46th game on Jan 15th 2012.

Since the atmosphere around is kinda crazy, I'd like to reiterate that's strictly for information, no implication lol

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12-20-2012, 03:49 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
Owners have offered a lot more than the Players.
Given that the players have moved towards the owners in every aspect of this negotiation I don't see how you could argue that.

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12-20-2012, 03:49 PM
  #343
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Originally Posted by PeterSidorkiewicz View Post
But doesn't the NHL's lawsuit also claim it's in their best interests to keep a union and negotiate with Fehr? Someone they have tried to keep out of process? It's messed up however you look at it.
The league wants the union to remain in place to avoid lawsuits by individual players.

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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
There's no reason why this vote couldn't be done in about 24 hours.
Of course there is. The PA's tactic, since last November, has been to stall. It's inconceivable that anyone would disagree, even the pro-PA folks admit he's waiting until the drop dead date to do much of anything. This vote taking 5 days is just another stall.

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Originally Posted by Hanklite View Post
The whole point of a Disclaimer is to say that the Union can no longer represent them as well as they could on their own.

it is a total hypocritical move.
Negotiating tactic, transparently so.

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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
Not in this case. Fehr and the PA have asked for a disclaimer of interest. If the players were not solidly behind the PA this would be an opportunity to vote against the motion and effectively negate the power of the PA.
I think you have this backwards. A vote against the motion would force the PA to stay intact and retain its power. A vote for the motion allows the PA to walk away from its constituency. Therefore, a majority vote for the DOI is the players basically allowing the PA to quit, obviously then having no power. Why would the players vote to have the union walk away if they (the players) are solidly behind the union and its negotiator? Why would they want to lose that representation?

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Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
Just so I'm clear, Fehr has states that he wants and is willing to negotiate further. Berryman has stated that this will not happen until...what? The NHLPA accepts the offer that was explicitly pulled off the table and no longer exists?
I believe Mr. Daly has stated he wants to know the agenda before agreeing to meet. I don't blame him. The last time Mr. Fehr called a meeting, asked for a mediator and then refused to discuss any compromises. If I was going to meet with him, I'd want assurances that wasn't going to happen again. I'm sure everyone on both sides has better things to do with their time than go through that again.

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It's not negotiating when you refuse to discuss until the other side capitulates. Spin it however you want.
A tactic both sides are employing at the moment.

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Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
Again, Daly has stated that they will NOT move off their length of contract. Why is this hard to understand?

In doing so, they are unwilling to negotiate.
This has been said more than once during this drawn out fiasco and will probably be said again. Both sides are essentially saying now that they're unwilling to move. It's all part of the game. I'm willing to bet that if Fehr/PA came forward and said they'd be willing to work at a legitimate 50/50 split that the league would work with them on something else. It's just the way it's done. Drives us crazy, to be sure, but these guys have been through this many times and they know how it works.

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Old
12-20-2012, 03:49 PM
  #344
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Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
How many games are there after Jan 14th in a normal schedule? Anyone know?
Preds have 38 games left on the original 12/13 schedule.

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Old
12-20-2012, 03:50 PM
  #345
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Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
The owners didn't give the players anything. They proposed to take away a number of "items" and then offered a small amount of it back.

The definition of greed indeed.
so to you, $300M is nothing... Got it.

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12-20-2012, 03:51 PM
  #346
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Given that the players have moved towards the owners in every aspect of this negotiation I don't see how you could argue that.
Please explain to me how the players have moved towards the Owners in every aspect?

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12-20-2012, 03:51 PM
  #347
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Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
FYI hockey-reference shows Henrik played his 46th game on Jan 15th 2012.

Since the atmosphere around is kinda crazy, I'd like to reiterate that's strictly for information, no implication lol
Thanks for that. It's sad that a lot of players are going to have their careers limited by this and we probably missed some great moments and records already this year. I'll leave it at that too.

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12-20-2012, 03:52 PM
  #348
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Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
Please explain to me how the players have moved towards the Owners in every aspect?
What was revenue split of the last CBA? What were the contract limits of the last CBA? What is being proposed by the pwners and what have the players offered?

In what direction has that moved?

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12-20-2012, 03:54 PM
  #349
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All that 'not moving' crap is just posturing, and it doesn't belong at this stage of the game.

The owners are probably posturing only a little though - I don't see where they would move significantly off their last offer.

The PA tactic so far is a double-edged sword. It sort-of worked (actually I think it was a complete failure but let's just go with it) earlier when the NHL negotiated against itself, but surely Fehr understands there's such a thing as going to the well too many times?

NHLPA had been really slow at adapting their tactics to the changing environment of the negotiations. Unfortunately, it reminds me of the Canucks in the playoffs...

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12-20-2012, 03:54 PM
  #350
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Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
What was revenue split of the last CBA? What were the contract limits of the last CBA? What is being proposed by the pwners and what have the players offered?

In what direction has that moved?
Watch out, you're going to get a barrage of "the last CBA has no bearing on this CBA" comments.

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