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1997 expansion approval

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Old
12-20-2012, 04:18 PM
  #51
KingsFan7824
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Just a question to consider.

Let's start in 1993.
What kind of shape would the NHL be in today IF;

We expand to Colorado instead of Florida
Minnesota doesn't move to Dallas
Quebec doesn't move to Colorado.
Winnipeg doesn't move to Phoenix
Hartford doesn't move to Carolina
We expand to Dallas instead of Nashville
We expand to Hamilton instead of Atlanta
We expand to Milwaukee instead of Columbus
We expand to Seattle instead of Minnesota

The rapid southern expansion was a failure. That's not even debatable at this point.
Had the NHL gotten the cap they wanted back in 94-95, before salaries started to skyrocket, maybe some of those teams don't move. Although 3 of the teams that moved were WHA teams, which were second class citizens from the moment they entered the league.

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12-20-2012, 04:21 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by DoyleG View Post
Wrong.

A professional WHL existed during the time before the 1967 Expansion.

The Canucks name came from a team in the same league.
WHL existed a a pro league from 1925 - 1926, then from 1952 - 1974.

It was the second iteration that some analysts believe convinced the National Hockey League to expand for the 1967-68 season out of the fear the WHL might become a major rival.

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Old
12-20-2012, 04:32 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by KingsFan7824 View Post
Had the NHL gotten the cap they wanted back in 94-95, before salaries started to skyrocket, maybe some of those teams don't move. Although 3 of the teams that moved were WHA teams, which were second class citizens from the moment they entered the league.
From the beginning, expansion accelerated NHL salary growth, simply because of the dynamics of a free market system.

Had the league got the cap they wanted in 94-95, the end game would have been the same, timing potentially even the same.

The NHL players were going to realize at some point adjustments forced by lockouts left only one response, decertification.

With the union no longer the players bargaining agent, a return of a free market system will most probably see player salaries take a greater than 50/50 split.

It is why I don't understand owners wanting to use the CBA to police other owners, thus delaying the process. In the end it will cost the owners significantly more than most have recognized.


Last edited by Holdurbreathe: 12-20-2012 at 05:45 PM.
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Old
12-20-2012, 04:34 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Stupidity.

What we saw was owners in larger markets basically waging economic warfare against smaller markets. And then on the other side, we saw stupidity in the front office as well. Philadelphia signed Chris Gratton to that obscene offer sheet (costing them four first-rounders), and Tampa threw them right back for Mikael Renberg and Karl Dykhuis.

Even Karmanos signing Fedorov to the offer sheet was something like this, although there was also the personal feud element with Ilitch.

Karmanos was a small market owner that triggered one of the offer sheets that blew the lid off salaries. The other one of course was NYR's offer to Sakic. What do you call Jacobs offer sheet to Marty Lapointe when he was with Detroit?

See, it's really difficult to blame the players when it was the owners' sometimes petty personal disputes that drove some of this stuff. There was pressure as well, pressure to keep their stars and to become or remain competitive. I don't think that happens when talent is abundant.

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12-20-2012, 04:44 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Karmanos was a small market owner that triggered one of the offer sheets that blew the lid off salaries. The other one of course was NYR's offer to Sakic. What do you call Jacobs offer sheet to Marty Lapointe when he was with Detroit?

See, it's really difficult to blame the players when it was the owners' sometimes petty personal disputes that drove some of this stuff. There was pressure as well, pressure to keep their stars and to become or remain competitive. I don't think that happens when talent is abundant.
Chicago to Keith Tkachuk (Winnipeg).
NYR to Joe Sakic (Colorado).
Philadelphia to Chris Gratton (Tampa Bay).
Toronto to Mattias Ohlund (Vancouver).
Carolina to Sergei Fedorov (which had the massive poison pill for making the conference finals; the salary and signing bonus weren't anything special)

Marty Lapointe wasn't an offer sheet case; he was a Group V free agent (10 years in the NHL, less than the NHL average salary).

In any case, all four salary-ratcheting RFA offer sheets were a case of a large-market team going after a small-market team.

I don't blame the players one bit; I blame a system that allowed owners to simply wage economic warfare against each other. That's the type of crap that MLB has seen but refuses to deal with, and it still exists today in the NHL (as the Shea Weber offer sheet bears out).

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Old
12-20-2012, 04:50 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
6 team NHL isn't so bad. Most of us would be watching hockey with or without a team.
There would have been a successful competitor league.

Imagine a WHA in all the major markets the NHL eschewed.

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12-20-2012, 05:09 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
See, it's really difficult to blame the players when it was the owners' sometimes petty personal disputes that drove some of this stuff.
I might be misreading the opinions of others, but I don't get the sense that the "blame the players" mentality goes any farther back than September. It really seems like something that's entirely based on their behavior during this specific negotiation, not an historical trend.

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12-20-2012, 05:34 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Karmanos was a small market owner that triggered one of the offer sheets that blew the lid off salaries. The other one of course was NYR's offer to Sakic. What do you call Jacobs offer sheet to Marty Lapointe when he was with Detroit?

See, it's really difficult to blame the players when it was the owners' sometimes petty personal disputes that drove some of this stuff. There was pressure as well, pressure to keep their stars and to become or remain competitive. I don't think that happens when talent is abundant.
It always happens to a degree, but you are right if there isn't sufficient supply of high quality players the price for that commodity rises.

However this problem is on the owners as well, they opted for expansion dollars with little regard to the fact that the demand for top quality players was far beyond the supply.


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Old
12-20-2012, 05:42 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Chicago to Keith Tkachuk (Winnipeg).
NYR to Joe Sakic (Colorado).
Philadelphia to Chris Gratton (Tampa Bay).
Toronto to Mattias Ohlund (Vancouver).
Carolina to Sergei Fedorov (which had the massive poison pill for making the conference finals; the salary and signing bonus weren't anything special)

Marty Lapointe wasn't an offer sheet case; he was a Group V free agent (10 years in the NHL, less than the NHL average salary).

In any case, all four salary-ratcheting RFA offer sheets were a case of a large-market team going after a small-market team.

I don't blame the players one bit; I blame a system that allowed owners to simply wage economic warfare against each other. That's the type of crap that MLB has seen but refuses to deal with, and it still exists today in the NHL (as the Shea Weber offer sheet bears out).
This is the exact reason I cannot find favor for the owners at all in this dispute.

Every CBA since Bettman, its the same thing about the economics, the health of all franchises, etc, etc.

Yet the second the CBA is ratified, its every owner for themselves regardless of the impact on the game or the league.

IMO this doesn't swing both ways, the owners can't claim they need adjustments to the system for the long term health of the game, then do everything in their power to screw it up.

IMO this mess is totally the owners doing, yet amazing there are people that blame the players.

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12-20-2012, 06:52 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I might be misreading the opinions of others, but I don't get the sense that the "blame the players" mentality goes any farther back than September. It really seems like something that's entirely based on their behavior during this specific negotiation, not an historical trend.
I think it's all connected. Player salaries became a focal point during the last lockout. Well, we're talking about the things that made so many things go off the rails. The current lockout is trying to fix (allegedly) what the last CBA failed to do, but it still contains things that were so screwed up from the inception that trying to fix just by ratcheting share of HRR downward and limiting contracts seems a fool's folly at best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
It always happens to a degree, but you are right if there isn't sufficient supply of high quality players the price for that commodity rises.

However this problem is on the owners as well, they opted for expansion dollars with little regard to the fact that the demand for top quality players was far beyond the supply.
And I think this very element is what lured so many teams with deeper pockets into the lifetime contract business.

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Old
12-20-2012, 07:01 PM
  #61
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I think historically the players have been trying to grab as big of a pie as they can, with agents and GMs helping them all the way.

I'm not sure you need to assign blame for what is rational on an individual level, even if the consequences are dire on the league as a whole.

You can't self-regulate human nature. You can have rules that prevent the more damaging effects of it.

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12-20-2012, 07:42 PM
  #62
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You think that expansion can just be pulled out of the air; you need potential owners who are willing and able to put forth appropriate plans and dollars to support a team in those cities. And those cities need to provide appropriate arenas. And to not move teams that you don't think should be be moved, you need owners who are willing to keep those teams there.

Seattle, in addition to not having potential owners also didn't have an arena at that time, and is still in the process to actually get one. The SuperSonics pulled out of the Key, could you have imagined an NHL team playing there.
Seeing as I agree with the rest of your post, this isn't a huge point worth arguing, but technically the bolded is incorrect. The Seattle Coliseum held hockey, it was around 1993 that the Sonics owner Barry Ackerley remodeled it to its current configuration so that it wouldn't hold a NHL team and he wouldn't have to share the building. That said there has never been a real owner lined up anyway.

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Old
12-20-2012, 09:34 PM
  #63
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There would have been a successful competitor league.

Imagine a WHA in all the major markets the NHL eschewed.
Pretty much. With markets like Washington, Philly, and Ottawa in play, that league would have been able to rival NHL pretty well, and keep 8-10 teams healthy over a decade or more. The NHL has to merge with the WHA at that point in the same way the AL and NL, or the AFC and NFC did.

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12-20-2012, 10:10 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
Pretty much. With markets like Washington, Philly, and Ottawa in play, that league would have been able to rival NHL pretty well, and keep 8-10 teams healthy over a decade or more. The NHL has to merge with the WHA at that point in the same way the AL and NL, or the AFC and NFC did.
Add in Minnesota, Long Island/Brooklyn, LA, Denver, Bay Area and Quebec, Winnipeg, Edmonton, Calgary. And teams in WHA cities such as Indianapolis, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Houston, Birmingham would all benefit from a better talent pool.

I think with a 6 team NHL, the WHA could have had 16 competitive teams in decent enough markets. Franchises would probably cost more than $100K too.

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12-21-2012, 07:42 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
I don't blame the players one bit; I blame a system that allowed owners to simply wage economic warfare against each other. That's the type of crap that MLB has seen but refuses to deal with, and it still exists today in the NHL (as the Shea Weber offer sheet bears out).
MLB dealt with it by having the rich teams pay enough money to the poor teams to enable the poor teams to profit even when they inevitably lose their marquee free agent players to said rich teams. In computer-speak, the problem you speak of in MLB isn't a bug, it's a feature, one the rich MLB teams willingly, even happily, go along with. And it's one Fehr would like the NHL to replicate.

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12-21-2012, 08:49 AM
  #66
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MLB dealt with it by having the rich teams pay enough money to the poor teams to enable the poor teams to profit even when they inevitably lose their marquee free agent players to said rich teams. In computer-speak, the problem you speak of in MLB isn't a bug, it's a feature, one the rich MLB teams willingly, even happily, go along with. And it's one Fehr would like the NHL to replicate.

If the NHL had MLB's profit margins, it might possibly work. Though I would still argue that it would make for a less interesting, less relevant league in the majority of markets.

But the fact is, the NHL doesn't make MLB money. Asking the wealthy teams to subsidize the marginalized teams AND pay massive salaries in a capless system is a great way to have 30 teams with tiny profit margins at best. There might not be as many teams failing, but there also wouldn't be more than a couple of teams with money to burn. Out goes one problem, in comes another.

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12-21-2012, 09:46 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Just a question to consider.

Let's start in 1993.
What kind of shape would the NHL be in today IF;

We expand to Colorado instead of Florida
Minnesota doesn't move to Dallas
Quebec doesn't move to Colorado.
Winnipeg doesn't move to Phoenix
Hartford doesn't move to Carolina
We expand to Dallas instead of Nashville
We expand to Hamilton instead of Atlanta
We expand to Milwaukee instead of Columbus
We expand to Seattle instead of Minnesota

The rapid southern expansion was a failure. That's not even debatable at this point.
I'm actually not very sold on Milwaukee as a market, I doubt it would be better than Nashville.

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12-21-2012, 10:11 AM
  #68
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I resent it being considered "indisputable" that the southern expansion failed. Unless you count Columbus as a Sunbelt team (Ohio? Seriously?) the only Southern team currently in any imminent danger is Phoenix. The others are a bit rocky, but are in no serious danger of being unable to operate in the near future. They're basically what a league trying to open a new market by expanding into it looks like. Given enough time to warm up to the idea I'm convinced the South will eventually embrace hockey at least as one sport among many and a good sport to come watch when football's not on.

We've seen the beginnings of a bit of hockey culture in certain markets like Nashville and Florida, things unique to that market that allow it its own little bit of distinctiveness -- it's a bit sophomoroc, but when you think about it, so was the Hat Trick when it first got started. It's a process, just like it was for the rest of the NHL fanbases. The difference is, we've already done the kind of growing these markets still need to do. They'll borrow from the sports cultures they know, (such as tailgating outside the arena) and improvise the rest. Give it a few decades of history and they'll be just a few more NHL fanbases with their own little quirky ways of doing things.

I think if you can import the southern sports fan culture into the NHL, it'll make the sport richer and more flavorful. Literally, in the sense of the tailgating fans.

Just don't expect them to be Canadians, and don't look down on them for doing things their way. I'm really interested to see how the south assimilates the NHL over the next few decades and turns it from a Yankee/Canadian import into their own thing.


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12-21-2012, 10:21 AM
  #69
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I resent it being considered "indisputable" that the southern expansion failed. Unless you count Columbus as a Sunbelt team (Ohio? Seriously?) the only Southern team currently in any imminent danger is Phoenix. The others are a bit rocky, but are in no serious danger of being unable to operate in the near future. They're basically what a league trying to open a new market by expanding into it looks like. Given enough time to warm up to the idea I'm convinced the South will eventually embrace hockey at least as one sport among many and a good sport to come watch when football's not on.
Certainly Nashville has been slowly growing as a hockey market. Tampa really hasn't shown any strong signs of being in struggling mode. Florida has somehow survived through years of impotence on-ice. Dallas has had some recent setbacks, but it hasn't been a long-term problem there. Carolina has had both ups and downs. Los Angeles has been around for over 40 years now. Anaheim hasn't been noted for having multiple Seasons of economic problems. So you're right... Where is all of this southern failure?

And even Atlanta had owners who really just didn't care and allowed the franchise to wither until finally they had enough of an argument of the franchise struggling to support their selling the team off to relocation.

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12-21-2012, 10:21 AM
  #70
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I resent it being considered "indisputable" that the southern expansion failed. Unless you count Columbus as a Sunbelt team (Ohio? Seriously?) the only Southern team currently in any imminent danger is Phoenix. The others are a bit rocky, but are in no serious danger of being unable to operate in the near future.
"Indisputable"? I agree, thats complete & utter nonsense. I in fact believe Phoenix can be resurrected, though I'm thoroughly disgusted with the manner in which the league and the various suitors have gone about their business in Arizona. Why Columbus even gets mentioned I dont know, as clearly people bringing up the Blue Jackets havent been following their story closely enough to appreciate the positive changes theyve' undergone over the past 6-10 months. Obscured I suppose by the Lockout but still, best to have your facts straight before opining that the pin needs to be pulled.

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12-21-2012, 10:23 AM
  #71
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All the southern failure is in the minds of the Canadian nationalists who don't like how much the NHL is becoming an American league.

I mean think about it from their perspective. Canada is so freaking similar to the US that they can only stand out in so many ways. Hockey is one of them -- only now, not so much. There was always going to be a few bitter enders that resent losing that uniqueness as the NHL tries to go mainstream.

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12-21-2012, 10:28 AM
  #72
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All the southern failure is in the minds of the Canadian nationalists who don't like how much the NHL is becoming an American league.

I mean think about it from their perspective. Canada is so freaking similar to the US that they can only stand out in so many ways. Hockey is one of them -- only now, not so much. There was always going to be a few bitter enders that resent losing that uniqueness as the NHL tries to go mainstream.
Exactly. This is about Canada losing another piece of its culture to the US again. Our TV, our movies are mostly American already. Hell some of our food.

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12-21-2012, 10:30 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
All the southern failure is in the minds of the Canadian nationalists who don't like how much the NHL is becoming an American league.

I mean think about it from their perspective. Canada is so freaking similar to the US that they can only stand out in so many ways. Hockey is one of them -- only now, not so much. There was always going to be a few bitter enders that resent losing that uniqueness as the NHL tries to go mainstream.
I seriously think that they hate the idea of 30,000 fans celebrating a Cup victory in this or that US city, when in Canada they see it as 300,000 fans that would be celebrating. But whatever, those are sometimes just the facts of life.

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Exactly. This is about Canada losing another piece of its culture to the US again. Our TV, our movies are mostly American already. Hell some of our food.
Again, the NHL has virtually always been about 2/3 US cities with mostly Canadian players. The percentage of cities has stayed roughly the same, the % of Canadian-born players has actually declined because of greater numbers of US and European-born players now in the League. If Canadians really want to complain, they should complain not about the number of US cities, but about the increase in the number of non-Canadian-born players.

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12-21-2012, 10:31 AM
  #74
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If you want the NHL to be the best league it can be, you have to let go of the idea that the NHL is a piece of Canadian culture. The sport, certainly. Hockey is yours. At least for now. But the NHL has been owned and operated by far more Americans than Canadians since the second expansion, if not before.

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12-21-2012, 10:32 AM
  #75
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I have to say Dojji you're low opinion of Canada wanting to preserve its being different shocks me. Canada has it's own culture, although I can't really define it at this moment. Yet we have been subsumed into the US media complex already. One can say(not me as I have fought about Canadian culture before) that you lack respect for it, Canadian culture, what ever it is at this point.

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