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Lockout V: Take the Long Way Home

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12-20-2012, 03:15 PM
  #501
Tinalera
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Originally Posted by Puckschmuck View Post
Oh FFS, just quick dicking around and cancel the whole season already. We all know by now that there won't be one.

Just. do. it.
From the sounds of the article, that day may indeed be the point of no return, and possibility of season being cancelled then.

Or maybe Daly just doesn't want to be "disappointed"


Last edited by Tinalera: 12-20-2012 at 03:16 PM. Reason: grammer/context
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Old
12-20-2012, 03:20 PM
  #502
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We may still get more than 48 games.

The Jets have 43 games left, after accounting for lost games. If the season is extended two weeks, games are played during the All-Star break and the schedule is condensed we could still see a 54 game schedule.

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12-20-2012, 03:25 PM
  #503
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The game is more dangerous now mainly because every single player is outfitted with more armor than a Sherman tank. Today's pads are great for protecting YOU, but they will destroy anything else they run into.
I agree but the additional speed brought on by rule changes adds to the danger.

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12-20-2012, 03:32 PM
  #504
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Nhl announces cancellation of games through jan. 14

Does this mean the whole season is gone?

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=412031

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Old
12-20-2012, 03:33 PM
  #505
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Have to give Walsh credit for this one:

Allan Walsh @walsha
Spoke to a high powered NHL executive today. He said, "We've gone from an economic battle to a religious war."
It took the NHL this long to realise that?
I'm officially in awe.

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12-20-2012, 03:37 PM
  #506
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Because NATIONAL ratings are down the problem is a single cities fault? I would suggest that the apathy stems from other markets not caring to watch a product from a non-Canadian market in the west coast. Ratings in LA for the finals were quite good. They sell out their arena on the regular and have a consistent fan-base through the good and the bad. Why is it that if Anaheim or Los Angeles makes the finals its a "watered down product" rather than one you really don't see much of in the snow cities?
If the league achieves parity then the only result that can be is a watered down product where no team is as good as it could be in a non cap free market league.

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12-20-2012, 03:40 PM
  #507
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Originally Posted by viper0220 View Post
Does this mean the whole season is gone?

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=412031
One can only hope

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12-20-2012, 03:42 PM
  #508
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Originally Posted by McLlwain View Post
It took the NHL this long to realise that?
I'm officially in awe.
Some in the league recognized it. When the moderates went to the table and walked away saying "I had to see it to believe it" was when it was firmly crystallized in the minds of the owners that this has nothing to do with business from the point of view of Fehr and the players. Many suspected this when Kelly was axed in favor of Fehr.

They are somehow looking for payback. Which I will forever find funny that they are looking for payback on a deal that they are willing to play under and enjoyed great success as a unit with.


I hope that the efforts of Crosby in trying a more moderate approach (and his disgust that they aren't talking) leads to something. It nearly did. I hope they try again and avoid the stupidity of trying to go down the DOI route this late in the game.


The Jan 14 date is the date for games to begin. This means a settlement sometime around the 4th needs to be in place and ready to be ratified. That date is pretty much right at the Jan 3 date many in the media tossed around as being the NHLs drop dead date for the season. At least it will all be over soon.

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12-20-2012, 03:42 PM
  #509
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Originally Posted by viper0220 View Post
This is 100% correct, they are playing overseas for less, than they would make under the new CBA.
less? some are playing for only the cost of living there or insurance to cover their NHL contract in case of an injury

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12-20-2012, 03:49 PM
  #510
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Originally Posted by tantalum View Post
Some in the league recognized it. When the moderates went to the table and walked away saying "I had to see it to believe it" was when it was firmly crystallized in the minds of the owners that this has nothing to do with business from the point of view of Fehr and the players. Many suspected this when Kelly was axed in favor of Fehr.

They are somehow looking for payback. Which I will forever find funny that they are looking for payback on a deal that they are willing to play under and enjoyed great success as a unit with.

I hope that the efforts of Crosby in trying a more moderate approach (and his disgust that they aren't talking) leads to something. It nearly did. I hope they try again and avoid the stupidity of trying to go down the DOI route this late in the game.


The Jan 14 date is the date for games to begin. This means a settlement sometime around the 4th needs to be in place and ready to be ratified. That date is pretty much right at the Jan 3 date many in the media tossed around as being the NHLs drop dead date for the season. At least it will all be over soon.
you aren't the only one

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Old
12-20-2012, 03:51 PM
  #511
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So what is the end game of the PA? It's not about money obviously, because they've lost that battle already. It's not about the future players, they've thrown them under the bus as well.

What the heck do they want?

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12-20-2012, 03:57 PM
  #512
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Originally Posted by Howard Chuck View Post
So what is the end game of the PA? It's not about money obviously, because they've lost that battle already. It's not about the future players, they've thrown them under the bus as well.

What the heck do they want?
I don't know. Even being on the pro-owner side, I would expect a fight from the players. In fact I hope they would put up some kind of fight; they shouldn't roll over. But I didn't expect them to 'fight to the death'.

Is it about the last lockout? I mean a lot of these players were just kids back then and didn't feel the sting of it. Why fight your father's war?

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12-20-2012, 04:01 PM
  #513
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Originally Posted by tantalum View Post
Some in the league recognized it. When the moderates went to the table and walked away saying "I had to see it to believe it" was when it was firmly crystallized in the minds of the owners that this has nothing to do with business from the point of view of Fehr and the players. Many suspected this when Kelly was axed in favor of Fehr.

They are somehow looking for payback. Which I will forever find funny that they are looking for payback on a deal that they are willing to play under and enjoyed great success as a unit with.


I hope that the efforts of Crosby in trying a more moderate approach (and his disgust that they aren't talking) leads to something. It nearly did. I hope they try again and avoid the stupidity of trying to go down the DOI route this late in the game.


The Jan 14 date is the date for games to begin. This means a settlement sometime around the 4th needs to be in place and ready to be ratified. That date is pretty much right at the Jan 3 date many in the media tossed around as being the NHLs drop dead date for the season. At least it will all be over soon.
I'm on board with those who believe this all started with Kelly's crucification. (I think that was the term that was used back then.)
And I'm having a hard time believing the NHL didn't see this coming as soon as Fehr got involved more and more and finally became head of the PA.

This script has been worked on for almost 3 years now.
I remember reading an article on The Fourth Period, where the writer suggested Fehr underestimated the owners, when he took the job. I think it's quite the other way around.

I don't think, the players want payback for the last CBA. They want revenge for the way the last CBA negotiations went down. I can sort of understand that. Although, the price they make everybody pay for it (fans, depending businesses etc.) is way to high.

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Old
12-20-2012, 04:11 PM
  #514
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Originally Posted by McLlwain View Post
I'm on board with those who believe this all started with Kelly's crucification. (I think that was the term that was used back then.)
And I'm having a hard time believing the NHL didn't see this coming as soon as Fehr got involved more and more and finally became head of the PA.

This script has been worked on for almost 3 years now.
I remember reading an article on The Fourth Period, where the writer suggested Fehr underestimated the owners, when he took the job. I think it's quite the other way around.

I don't think, the players want payback for the last CBA. They want revenge for the way the last CBA negotiations went down. I can sort of understand that. Although, the price they make everybody pay for it (fans, depending businesses etc.) is way to high.
I think Daly at least was genuinely surprised. IMO the league kept thinking...well, he is just bargaining hard, soon things will go much smoother.

Then it never happened.

There is basically no way to logically explain NHLPA tactics to this point.

Even if you isolate the current situation after 60 games were impossible, the rational NHLPA stance should have been to move toward this DOI vote (and NOT TAKE 5 DAYS TO DO SO) and CAREFULLY probe the last offer put forth by the moderate owners. They then should have cut the fastest deal possible. A mid-50's game season would have been ideal.

Basically things evaporated not because it was a package deal but because the NHLPA tried to get too much at one time. I don't mind them rejecting the moderate owner's deal and trying to get more, but I don't think you do it as a response to a yes/no question, and IN PUBLIC.

It should have gone like this:

NHLPA: No thanks, there are some things we can't accept in that. Meet tomorrow? We have a new proposal.

Daly: Ok.

Daly 'breakup voicemail' never happens because all the union did was respectfully say no, not go crying to the media. Next day in negotiations:

Daly: This offer isn't acceptable.

NHLPA: Ok, well I know you said it is a package for A B C, but is there any way we could change A? Which of XYZ is most important to you?

Boom, negotiations continue.

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12-20-2012, 04:12 PM
  #515
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Originally Posted by McLlwain View Post
I'm on board with those who believe this all started with Kelly's crucification. (I think that was the term that was used back then.)
And I'm having a hard time believing the NHL didn't see this coming as soon as Fehr got involved more and more and finally became head of the PA.

This script has been worked on for almost 3 years now.
I remember reading an article on The Fourth Period, where the writer suggested Fehr underestimated the owners, when he took the job. I think it's quite the other way around.

I don't think, the players want payback for the last CBA. They want revenge for the way the last CBA negotiations went down. I can sort of understand that. Although, the price they make everybody pay for it (fans, depending businesses etc.) is way to high.
I'm completely baffled why you would loose millions of dollars because of something that happened to someone else a long time ago. And why would they want revenge against something that worked out very well for them and made them incredibly rich?

I really don't get it.

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12-20-2012, 04:12 PM
  #516
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Originally Posted by McLlwain View Post
I'm on board with those who believe this all started with Kelly's crucification. (I think that was the term that was used back then.)
And I'm having a hard time believing the NHL didn't see this coming as soon as Fehr got involved more and more and finally became head of the PA.

This script has been worked on for almost 3 years now.
I remember reading an article on The Fourth Period, where the writer suggested Fehr underestimated the owners, when he took the job. I think it's quite the other way around.

I don't think, the players want payback for the last CBA. They want revenge for the way the last CBA negotiations went down. I can sort of understand that. Although, the price they make everybody pay for it (fans, depending businesses etc.) is way to high.
And I would say it's the NHLPA that wants revenge, not the players.

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12-20-2012, 04:15 PM
  #517
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When will we hear the results of the vote? This is the last day, correct? I'd also like to know what exactly they were voting on.

If they were hoping that the vote period was going to buy them time, I guess that didn't work since the next round of games has been cancelled before the results of the vote were released (leaked).

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12-20-2012, 04:15 PM
  #518
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Originally Posted by McLlwain View Post
I'm on board with those who believe this all started with Kelly's crucification. (I think that was the term that was used back then.)
And I'm having a hard time believing the NHL didn't see this coming as soon as Fehr got involved more and more and finally became head of the PA.

This script has been worked on for almost 3 years now.
I remember reading an article on The Fourth Period, where the writer suggested Fehr underestimated the owners, when he took the job. I think it's quite the other way around.

I don't think, the players want payback for the last CBA. They want revenge for the way the last CBA negotiations went down. I can sort of understand that. Although, the price they make everybody pay for it (fans, depending businesses etc.) is way to high.
I think it goes both ways-The owners may have underestimated Fehr (though if they had done their homework they shouldn't have), but I Fehr also is rather how "old boys club" the owners actually are, and seems at times stunned at how absolutely stubborn they are-I do think he went in thinking "they wouldn't dare lose another season after record revenues", and I think Fehr is a little surprised to see how close the brink they actually are-IMO I think Fehr thought this would have been playing hockey late Nov at the latest.

With MLB it was easier-"America's game" ect, ect-and he had more US fan leverage-he doesn't seem to understand the Canadian fans, and, more importantly IMO-he struggles with the-for most part-apathy from the US fan base-he hasn't been able to use it as leverage as he did with MLB.

My total speculation anyway

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12-20-2012, 04:16 PM
  #519
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The night is darkest before dawn. Too bad the sun blew up. No dawn, No season, seems only legal battles ahead.

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12-20-2012, 04:17 PM
  #520
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Guess the Mayans were correct after all.

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Old
12-20-2012, 04:24 PM
  #521
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So what is the end game of the PA? It's not about money obviously, because they've lost that battle already. It's not about the future players, they've thrown them under the bus as well.

What the heck do they want?
I think they want to not be locked out and told to concede more for every cba.

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12-20-2012, 04:25 PM
  #522
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I'm completely baffled why you would loose millions of dollars because of something that happened to someone else a long time ago. And why would they want revenge against something that worked out very well for them and made them incredibly rich?

I really don't get it.
Fehr keeps bringing up the 2004 CBA negotiations.
The latest he talked about it was during his speech at the CWA (?) meeting. It IS the one big issue, that the players feel (or Fehr makes them believe) they got screwed over last time around.
Seven years is not that long ago. There's enough active players left who have suffered through that last battle and lost.

Then you start into these negotiations and some owner refers to you as cattle. How the hell do you keep a cool mind in all of this?

Fehr is a fundamentalist. He doesn't care if the guys he represents make 10K per year or 10mill. He makes it look like it's all about justice. And apparently he's charismatic enough to keep his followers believing him and in line for the most part.

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12-20-2012, 04:26 PM
  #523
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I don't think, the players want payback for the last CBA. They want revenge for the way the last CBA negotiations went down. I can sort of understand that. Although, the price they make everybody pay for it (fans, depending businesses etc.) is way to high.
Really, the way the last negotiations went down were their own fault. They refused to acknowledge the situation the league was in and sit down and negotiation. They allowed Goodenow to put forth a strategy that they ultimately didn't agree with and cost them a season. When they finally sat down and negotiated (Linden and Saskin) they negotiated a strong deal for themselves under the framework the league was happy with. That was what Kelly wanted to continue to do...maximize the money for the players under a system the league was happy with. Avoid costing the players millions.

The league was never out to "crush" the union last time either IMO (I don't disagree that in the end it can and likely did become personal and that right now the same thing is happening but at the start it wasn't). They were out to make a fair deal based on current economic conditions. Bob MacKenzie said it best the other day on the radio...you have two difference philosophies (and I'm paraphrasing). The League like most businesses are trying to make a budget based on the here and now. They are starting with a pie and dividing it up. What that division looked like last time has no bearing on what it looks like this time. The players on the other hand can only seem to look at the differences between the two pies. As a result we have the standoff we have. One is a strategy based on business practice and the other based on emotion. The problem is that the players turfed the guy who could approach it as a business in favor of the guy who fans the flames of the passion.


In the end it ought to come down to this for each individual players "is what the league offered by and large fair?" And honestly, I have no idea how they answer no.

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12-20-2012, 04:26 PM
  #524
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And I would say it's the NHLPA that wants revenge, not the players.
I don't get it.
You mean Fehr wants revenge for what the league has done to Goodenow?

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12-20-2012, 04:32 PM
  #525
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If the league achieves parity then the only result that can be is a watered down product where no team is as good as it could be in a non cap free market league.
What does that have to do with LA and Anaheim markets being the reason for the watered down product? Anaheim had 2 HHOF defense-men lined up together for god sakes.

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