HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

NHL Lockout Discusion XXXIII: It's the same old song. **MOD WARNING POST 274

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-20-2012, 06:28 PM
  #551
Bourne Endeavor
Moderator
HFBoards: Night's Watch
 
Bourne Endeavor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Country: Canada
Posts: 26,553
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
I don't know any businessman who will happily lose millions, whether they are billionaires or mere millionaires.
When those millions represent barely a fragment of your worth. They have the equivalency of a few loonies to us. At this stage the owners want to reiterate with absolute ruthless assurance they will win any and every lockout, thus preventing the PA for using stall tactics in the future.

Why not get exactly what you want when the model has already been damaged?

Bourne Endeavor is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 06:29 PM
  #552
Kopistar
Registered User
 
Kopistar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,600
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacOfNiagara View Post
My read as well. But I expect NHLPA to read it as a decision must be made by Jan 15th, and some of the hardliners to still push the mid Feb date based on '94-'95.
They can push, but the NHL has all the leverage as far as setting the end date

Kopistar is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 06:29 PM
  #553
HeShootsHeScores
Registered User
 
HeShootsHeScores's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,460
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by averyrule View Post
Sorry if this has been answered already but what ever happened to that vote for disclaimer of interest? I thought the players were supposed to be done with that today. Do we know the results yet?
I think they have till friday at noon to vote.

HeShootsHeScores is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 06:31 PM
  #554
bishop12
Ovyously
 
bishop12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,724
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MVP of West Hollywd View Post
For all the people worried about the future of the league with a 2nd season missed, my concern is actually the opposite. What happens if they cancel the season and revenues the next 5-6 years don't take a hit and actually the league does well? In that situation after seeing how 2 lockouts didn't affect them, I could see these clowns giving themselves the greenlight to do this every time a CBA expires every 6 years...
It'll be like the Olympics. Every 5-6 years we have this epic event to look forward to.

bishop12 is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 06:32 PM
  #555
pepty
Registered User
 
pepty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,050
vCash: 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
Fehr got the judge to rule in his favour last time he was involved in something this nasty: I think he rolls the dice again.
There is something to that, however I don't think that a judge will order the league to end the lockout.

Though it seems that the PA are playing a bizarre and destructive game of chicken it just may be that Fehr will never agree to any terms the league can accept.

He really hasn't changed his narrative a bit-he was on the Jeff Blair show yesterday and they replayed parts of it on Sportsnet. It was the same old history lesson, the glories of the uncapped MLB, players being routed in the last lockout etc etc..

Because of his own ideology and ego and the audience he is playing to who will judge his actions on the broad union narrative rather than anything specific to hockey-I don't know if he can put his name to any agreement that not only includes a cap but also will deliver a lower percentage of revenue to the players. The league feels it must adjust the ratio of player revenue and close the loopholes in the CBA. I don't know if that divide can be bridged.

It seems he led the MLB players along the same path telling them that the League would never lose a World Series and that they had a deadline in mind and so on. He was bailed out by the courts then as he never did come to an agreement with the League to end the strike, but the courts ended the stalemate.

pepty is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 06:33 PM
  #556
Do Make Say Think
d00 da Bieber
 
Do Make Say Think's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 23,047
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
I'm not even talking about the decertification circus. That's a lot of garbage that is terrible for the long-term game.

I'm just speaking in general. Every single day the players suffer lost wages of an already very short career in the NHL. I could see if there was one major stance where we all 100% agree on, but there isn't that situation going on. If this was a simple discussion about life... they lose more by trying to win a battle as opposed to just going with the deal on the table. It's beyond my understanding.

And nobody in the world could sell me that the majority of the players care about winning this battle on principles of the future of the game than getting paid. My first question as an NHL player would be "Don... will we make more if we sit out this season and get the CBA we want?" That answer is HELL no... not in a million years!
This is bigger than the NHL/NHLPA at this stage: this is about unions versus business.

Do Make Say Think is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 06:34 PM
  #557
vanwest
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,261
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
When those millions represent barely a fragment of your worth. They have the equivalency of a few loonies to us. At this stage the owners want to reiterate with absolute ruthless assurance they will win any and every lockout, thus preventing the PA for using stall tactics in the future.

Why not get exactly what you want when the model has already been damaged?
Logically you are right. But I can tell you that I have dealt with many wealthy people before and I don't know any of them that view millions as the equivalent of toonies. In the end most of them make decisions based on sound business, even if they sometimes play hardball to get there. I think that what you are saying is that it may make good business sense to cancel the season over contracting issues. I really can't see that TBH.

vanwest is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 06:36 PM
  #558
this providence
Chips in Bed Theorem
 
this providence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: St. Paul
Posts: 9,898
vCash: 500
Soooo, does anyone actually have any idea what the NHLPA's end game in all of this is?

Because it doesn't appear they have one.

__________________

After Meaningless Win - 3/29/12 - Game 77 | SoH-"Who knows, that could have cost us a Cup tonight." | Dooohkay
this providence is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 06:40 PM
  #559
waffledave
waffledave, from hf
 
waffledave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,902
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by this providence View Post
Soooo, does anyone actually have any idea what the NHLPA's end game in all of this is?

Because it doesn't appear they have one.
Honestly, I think I figured it out. They just want a year off. They simply don't feel like playing, and are willing to take a financial hit for it.

__________________
Yours in Christ,

waffledave
waffledave is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 06:42 PM
  #560
Hockey Fan #751
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,504
vCash: 500
What is interesting is this:

(1) Rumblings have been that any season would start 12 days after an agreement is made. (3-5 days to collect the players then a 7-day camp)
(2) There were rumours from I think RDS or TVA that Jan. 3 was the drop-dead date.
(3) Jan. 3 + 12 = Jan. 15 which is the earliest game on the schedule right now.

I think January 3 might be the D-Day.

Hockey Fan #751 is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 06:42 PM
  #561
vanwest
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,261
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by this providence View Post
Soooo, does anyone actually have any idea what the NHLPA's end game in all of this is?

Because it doesn't appear they have one.
The fear is that they don't have one. I'm hoping that it is to get the owners to move a little more and wrap this up next week. Otherwise, both sides would lose big. The players obviously would take the bigger hit.

vanwest is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 06:43 PM
  #562
Mike Jones
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,582
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by this providence View Post
Soooo, does anyone actually have any idea what the NHLPA's end game in all of this is?

Because it doesn't appear they have one.
Well, to borrow some words from a Queen song (And perhaps a title for a future lockout thread): "We want it all/we want it all/we want it all/and we want it now".

Seriously - to me their endgame is to beat the owners and keep their 57% of HRR.

Never gonna happen.

Mike Jones is online now  
Old
12-20-2012, 06:45 PM
  #563
The n00b King
Kingin' since 2003
 
The n00b King's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,813
vCash: 500
You know, we haggle a ton over the numbers, who's right and who's wrong.

But after reading that article on TSN...the impact is being felt across the land. There are a ton of businesses out there that are losing money every day a game isn't played. The league isn't just turning away fans, it's turning away business from the small business folks. This will have a very deep impact if the season is canceled. Fans might never come back (like many have promised) and not spend money in their local businesses.

I don't think either the NHL nor the NHLPA understand the true impact of what they are doing. They are really showing how disconnected they are from the rest of the people (for whom they are the sole reason they even exist).

Should a season be lost, it will have been a huge black eye to the future of a ton of things. The people involved cannot continue to do this. Not if they want to ensure the future of the younger players (which is what they are supposedly doing).

And that is what saddens me the most...people like you. People like me. Being out of work in an already tough economy. And all we want is to take home our measly 50k (or less) salary and spend it on them. And they are just spitting in our faces, because they want more. They all want more.

Sigh.

The n00b King is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 06:45 PM
  #564
Do Make Say Think
d00 da Bieber
 
Do Make Say Think's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 23,047
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by this providence View Post
Soooo, does anyone actually have any idea what the NHLPA's end game in all of this is?

Because it doesn't appear they have one.
As much as we all hate Fehr to think they don't have an endgame is beyond ridiculous.

Do Make Say Think is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 06:46 PM
  #565
S3rkie
Registered User
 
S3rkie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 1,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
Well, to borrow some words from a Queen song (And perhaps a title for a future lockout thread): "We want it all/we want it all/we want it all/and we want it now".
Never gonna happen.
That song came on my ipod the other day, and I started laughing about how perfectly it described the situation.

S3rkie is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 06:47 PM
  #566
this providence
Chips in Bed Theorem
 
this providence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: St. Paul
Posts: 9,898
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Honestly, I think I figured it out. They just want a year off. They simply don't feel like playing, and are willing to take a financial hit for it.
Probably close to any guess out there at this point. Sadly.

Don't understand the players' perspective here and it's pretty damn clear they've got very little sense of direction and they've been mislead and rallied around something that is doing them no favors at the end of the day. But hey, they can continue to vilify and spill vitriol on a figure head if that's what helps them cope with everything they have and are going to lose, I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
As much as we all hate Fehr to think they don't have an endgame is beyond ridiculous.
Of the things that it seems the players (and Fehr) are potentially holding out hopes for most, and likely all, have the chances of happening somewhere around slim and none. This league will fold before it's de-linked.


Last edited by this providence: 12-20-2012 at 06:54 PM.
this providence is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 06:51 PM
  #567
vanwest
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,261
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
As much as we all hate Fehr to think they don't have an endgame is beyond ridiculous.
My worst nightmare is that his end game is the courts which would be a disaster.
But, I think he likely sees the NHL as still being prepared to move on contract issues and that a deal will soon be struck.

vanwest is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 06:52 PM
  #568
Shrimper
Trick or ruddy treat
 
Shrimper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Essex
Country: United Kingdom
Posts: 74,969
vCash: 50
The court (I think it was the court) shouldn't have given the date of Jan 7th as the latest they could file DOI. They'll use that and if they do then that's the rest of January gone and the season.

What was the last years split of HRR in the previous CBA?

Shrimper is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 06:52 PM
  #569
sharks9
Registered User
 
sharks9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 9,757
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
Well, to borrow some words from a Queen song (And perhaps a title for a future lockout thread): "We want it all/we want it all/we want it all/and we want it now".

Seriously - to me their endgame is to beat the owners and keep their 57% of HRR.

Never gonna happen.
Except they've already agreed to 50%...

sharks9 is online now  
Old
12-20-2012, 06:54 PM
  #570
Shrimper
Trick or ruddy treat
 
Shrimper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Essex
Country: United Kingdom
Posts: 74,969
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharks9 View Post
Except they've already agreed to 50%...
It's 50/50 in terms of the split but when you include the Make Whole it becomes 57%. At least that's what Mirtle told me.

Shrimper is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 06:56 PM
  #571
Paul4587
Moderator
 
Paul4587's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,639
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Why not get exactly what you want when the model has already been damaged?
Because by pushing to get exactly what they want, they're going to likely lose the season and damage the model considerably more. It's one thing to push as far as you can and get in a half season, it's another to push so hard for what you want that you lose a second season in 8 years. A lot of fans won't come back to a league that has only played 7 out of the last 9 years.

Paul4587 is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 06:57 PM
  #572
vanwest
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,261
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul4587 View Post
Because by pushing to get exactly what they want, they're going to likely lose the season and damage the model considerably more. It's one thing to push as far as you can and get in a half season, it's another to push so hard for what you want that you lose a second season in 8 years. A lot of fans won't come back to a league that has only played 7 out of the last 9 years.
That's a good summary. Fehr is probably counting on the owners acting rationally.

vanwest is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 06:57 PM
  #573
Freudian
Still here O'Reilly?
 
Freudian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Sweden
Posts: 32,769
vCash: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by this providence View Post
Soooo, does anyone actually have any idea what the NHLPA's end game in all of this is?

Because it doesn't appear they have one.
I think Fehr puts an very high value on players rights and a lower value on actual money. So for him it's worth fighting a few extra months (with $500M in lost salaries) to get a few minor wins or smaller losses when it comes to contracting.

It's the only way his strategy makes sense, even if the logic is absurd to start with.

Alternatively he has a long term plan to get this thing to break down and then go after the cap in the summer, but it seems unlikely since it's hard believing the players would accept it. There would have to be some serious voodoo involved for that.

Freudian is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 06:58 PM
  #574
dennilfloss
Yes I love disco!
 
dennilfloss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,946
vCash: 500
The union seems fixated on revenue but ignoring expenses, and therefore neglecting the profit/losses dichotomy that is an essential part of doing business as opposed to doing charity for the players sake. Regarding those thousands of pages detailing the economic situation of each team provided to the NHLPA by the NHL, did the union peruse them to fully assess what arrangement would result in a viable league or did they just dismiss them out of hand? We have never seen the union speak about those details and how they could approach this in a practical and reasoned manner. It's like watching the cognitive chasm between those who deal with beliefs/faith (e.g. creationists) vs those who interpret facts (evolutionists).

dennilfloss is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 06:59 PM
  #575
Pilky01
I hate Dion Phanuef
 
Pilky01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: London
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,497
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharks9 View Post
Except they've already agreed to 50%...
He must be referring to the owners as they are the ones who are unwilling to accept anything but immediate and outright capitulation.

It should be plainly obvious to anybody who followed the league through the last lockout that the owners have no intention of staying at 50% and as soon as the yet to be determined CBA expires they will do this exact same thing again.

Pilky01 is online now  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:24 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.