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Old
12-20-2012, 07:20 PM
  #501
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
I'm getting tired of your shtick.

That was posted by thefeebster earlier in this thread. But I'm guessing you think we're both total morons for actually knowing something about the prospects and watching them play?

Whether you like it or not, McNally's and Corrado's pre-draft strengths were not dissimilar.



For Corrado to pull a 180, he would no longer be seen as a PMD. Is that the contention here, because that's what you are saying when you say his strengths are the opposite of what they were when they were drafted. Savvy?


In your opinion, did Corrado have a good hockey IQ prior to being drafted, or poor?



I understand you watch prospects, but it doesn't mean that you are an authority. My friends are DET fans, I watch a lot of their team and their prospects. I'm thinking I can speak on that topic at the very least. No one is a head scout here amirite?

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12-20-2012, 07:25 PM
  #502
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
For Corrado to pull a 180, he would no longer be seen as a PMD. Is that the contention here, because that's what you are saying when you say his strengths are the opposite of what they were when they were drafted. Savvy?

In your opinion, did Corrado have a good hockey IQ prior to being drafted, or poor?
Good hockey IQ, just like McNally. I still don't see why that's relevant unless you somehow can argue that McNally doesn't have good hockey IQ.

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12-20-2012, 07:26 PM
  #503
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Excellent. We'll see who was right in 5 years. I wouldn't bet on HF with their track record.


I'm not betting on HF, I'm betting on history. You brought up car-accident Girgorenko as an indictment on DET's drafting when prior to him, they produced Kronwall and Kopecky. After him, they produced Hudler, Flieschmann, Filpulla and Ericsson. Now who's picking stuff to fit their argument?



Also not, by publications - it goes much further than HF. In fact, if you could find one, I'd love to see one where they list VAN as having a better pool than DET. Then there are the fans, who I suppose have many of their own evaluators, such as yourself, that disagree with your opinion also. It's not you that is backed by consensus here. If anything, you're showing bias.

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12-20-2012, 07:28 PM
  #504
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Also not, by publications - it goes much further than HF. In fact, if you could find one, I'd love to see one where they list VAN as having a better pool than DET. Then there are the fans, who I suppose have many of their own evaluators, such as yourself, that disagree with your opinion also. It's not you that is backed by consensus here. If anything, you're showing bias.
I said they have a better pool because of Brendan Smith. We happen to disagree on value of guys like Ferraro, Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco, etc. I think that Nyquist and Jarnkrok are good prospects, just like on our end Kassian and Jensen are good prospects. I think that Mrazek is a good prospect just like I think Cannata is a good prospect. I think that Ouellet is a good prospect just like Corrado is. I think that Sproul will be a middling AHL defenseman, just like Connauton.

I also think that Canucks have done well in signing free-agents to make up for missing 2010 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks. Tanev, Lack and Archibald have filled those holes quite well, in my opinion.


Last edited by Tiranis: 12-20-2012 at 07:36 PM.
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Old
12-20-2012, 07:36 PM
  #505
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Good hockey IQ, just like McNally. I still don't see why that's relevant unless you somehow can argue that McNally doesn't have good hockey IQ.


It's relevant because nowhere did I advocate forgoing good hockey IQ players. That's why I'm taking issue with the accusation. The argument as morphed into my position becoming that of someone who devalues good hockey IQ players, when I'm trying to push the exact opposite!



The question I am posing is that is McNally's hockey IQ, or his mind really, good enough to overcome his instinct. We see in Corrado's case it was. He was able to make the adjustment. Let's see if McNally can do the same. I have my doubts because frankly I'm surprised Corrado was able to in the fashion that he had. For someone to duplicate it would be quite a feat.



My stance has remained to side with hockey IQ + skill, even at the expense of size + skating. The argument has been against the Canucks overvaluing skating or size at the _expense_ of hockey IQ.

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12-20-2012, 07:43 PM
  #506
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
My stance has remained to side with hockey IQ + skill, even at the expense of size + skating. The argument has been against the Canucks overvaluing skating or size at the _expense_ of hockey IQ.
That's not really your stance though. If it was, you would like the McNally pick. His game is built on skill - he's a very smart guy as well. Yet you do like the Gaunce and Mallet picks even though they were drafted for size and physicalty over skill.

You're saying you want skill and smarts but also to draft 'safe' players at the same time. I think that's why everyone is confused with your stance...

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12-20-2012, 07:44 PM
  #507
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I also think that hand-wringing over whether McNally can adjust or not is ridiculous. We're talking about a freshman defenseman that put up 28 points in 34 games. The absolute worst that will happen if he can't adjust and he's the kind of guy that needs a puck on his stick, is that he switches to forward.

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12-20-2012, 07:44 PM
  #508
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
I said they have a better pool because of Brendan Smith. We happen to disagree on value of guys like Ferraro, Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco, etc. I think that Nyquist and Jarnkrok are good prospects, just like on our end Kassian and Jensen are good prospects. I think that Mrazek is a good prospect just like I think Cannata is a good prospect. I think that Ouellet is a good prospect just like Corrado is. I think that Sproul will be a middling AHL defenseman, just like Connauton.

I also think that Canucks have done well in signing free-agents to make up for missing 2010 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks. Tanev, Lack and Archibald have filled those holes quite well, in my opinion.


Why do we disagree on Tatar, Sheahan, Ferraro and Jurco? What have I said that is different for these prospects than you have?


Ok, when noting equivalents, notice that you have matched players across pools while excluding the four listed above? Who are their equivalents in the Canucks pools. Meaning, let's say we agree that the players you list as equals are equals (for sake of argument). What are the equals to the others? Is it Archibald and Rodin? Mallet? etc...


Then, after that, we are still missing guys like Jarnkrok, Frk, Athanasiou, Tvrdon, Backman, Almqvist, Quine and Jensen... That's a lot more depth than VAN, so you can see why people see their pool as being much better.

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12-20-2012, 07:50 PM
  #509
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Then, after that, we are still missing guys like Jarnkrok, Frk, Athanasiou, Tvrdon, Backman, Almqvist, Quine and Jensen... That's a lot more depth than VAN, so you can see why people see their pool as being much better.
Do you really think I have time to sit here and put together a comparison of 20-25 prospects? Just off the top of my head, Jensen could be compared to Price. Quine could be compared to Mallet. Almqvist is worse than McNally. Tommernes is comparable to Backman. Tvrdon and Anthanasiou are completely unspectacular prospects with whole ton of issues, let's say Archibald and Friesen. Jurco will likely be their Rodin in a few years.

Tatar is a guy I'll have trouble finding a comparable for that you'll like but I also happen to think he's an AHLer for life.

And honestly, I didn't think about this much. I would rank someone like Mallet as having higher potential than Quine, yet I compared them. I think McNally is in a different tier than Almqvist. In fact, I think Almqvist is a pretty boring prospect given his size and average offensive game.

I think a whole bunch of these guys are overrated solely because they're Detroit prospects or because at one point they had great promise in junior that they never lived up to since.


Last edited by Tiranis: 12-20-2012 at 07:58 PM.
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12-20-2012, 07:51 PM
  #510
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No points for Jensen today. But he did have a goal called off for kicking the puck.
Doesn't pass. Goals called off for kicking. Now if only he dives he'll be the prefect canuck.

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12-20-2012, 08:00 PM
  #511
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
That's not really your stance though. If it was, you would like the McNally pick. His game is built on skill - he's a very smart guy as well. Yet you do like the Gaunce and Mallet picks even though they were drafted for size and physicalty over skill.

You're saying you want skill and smarts but also to draft 'safe' players at the same time. I think that's why everyone is confused with your stance...



Not so.



Here's my comment on it to you about the caveat with Gaunce:
Quote:
I'm advocating smarts + skills rather than size + skating. Of course, you could luck out and get a big cerebral player like we did with Gaunce, so it's fluid.
the emphasis is still smarts.



With Gaunce, you are getting smarts + size (underrated skill IMO but not enough to add a + I agree). The highest importance is still smarts. If you _expand_ that to a combination, I take skill + hockey IQ over size + skating. In fact, I've come out in support of Schroeder on here many times.



For McNally, I question if his hockey sense is going to be enough to overcome his instinct. That's it. Finito.

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12-20-2012, 08:10 PM
  #512
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Do you really think I have time to sit here and put together a comparison of 20-25 prospects? Just off the top of my head, Jensen could be compared to Price. Quine could be compared to Mallet. Almqvist is worse than McNally. Tommernes is comparable to Backman. Tvrdon and Anthanasiou are completely unspectacular prospects with whole ton of issues, let's say Archibald and Friesen. Jurco will likely be their Rodin in a few years.

Tatar is a guy I'll have trouble finding a comparable for that you'll like but I also happen to think he's an AHLer for life.



Wow, AHLer for life? Do tell. Do you think this because he is one-way, smaller and not fast? He's got the offensive IQ. He's putting up the points. Perhaps he can carve out a career like Hudler did?



And the Jurco being like Rodin is also extreme. Why?





Quote:
And honestly, I didn't think about this much. I would rank someone like Mallet as having higher potential than Quine, yet I compared them. I think McNally is in a different tier than Almqvist. In fact, I think Almqvist is a pretty boring prospect given his size and average offensive game.

I think a whole bunch of these guys are overrated solely because they're Detroit prospects or because at one point they had great promise in junior that they never lived up to since.



Their production also causes the optimism that it does. A facet that most Canucks prospects don't compare well to.



Interesting take to say the least.

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12-20-2012, 08:13 PM
  #513
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Wow, AHLer for life? Do tell. Do you think this because he is one-way, smaller and not fast? He's got the offensive IQ. He's putting up the points. Perhaps he can carve out a career like Hudler did?
I just don't see him playing an NHL style game. He's kind of like Haydar in how he gets his points. He's also killing it on the PP and that doesn't translate to the NHL, based on the research that's out there.

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And the Jurco being like Rodin is also extreme. Why?
Weak, inconsistent and I don't think he has a high hockey iq.

---

Anyway, it is what it is. This is my perception of their prospects. People also thought I was crazy when I didn't like MPS where he was drafted.

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12-20-2012, 08:18 PM
  #514
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Not so.

For McNally, I question if his hockey sense is going to be enough to overcome his instinct. That's it. Finito.
What about Mallet? You said you liked targeting this type of player because he represents somewhat of a safe pick, even though his game is built around size and toughness in place of skill and smarts. You should be against the Mallet selection...

I wonder if the Canucks biggest issue with drafting is simply how few picks they've had and where they select. Is there a team in the NHL with fewer picks than the Canucks over the last 5-7 years?

Are the Sabres just stepping to the podium more frequently and with higher picks? Could that be a big part of what separates the 2 teams?

I will say I don't like the direction of going after size. Last year I read a detailed breakdown of draft picks and it showed it's extremely difficult to pick big, quality NHL forwards outside of the top 30(?) and that you're much much more likely to come away with a solid player the smaller they get. In short, going with smaller forwards outside the 1st rd yields much better results than going for size. The Sabres are 1 team that seem to overlook size - could play into their excellent results...

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12-20-2012, 08:22 PM
  #515
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
I just don't see him playing an NHL style game. He's kind of like Haydar in how he gets his points. He's also killing it on the PP and that doesn't translate to the NHL, based on the research that's out there.



Weak, inconsistent and I don't think he has a high hockey iq.

---

Anyway, it is what it is. This is my perception of their prospects. People also thought I was crazy when I didn't like MPS where he was drafted.



FTR, I don't think you're crazy. Essentially, you acknowledge DET's pool is better. But I'm just taking issue with difference being localized to Brendan Smith. It goes deeper than that IMO.



Tatar will be the first experiment. While I agree he will have trouble in the same way Hudler had trouble, I think there may be enough there for him to carve out a career in the same fashion.

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12-20-2012, 08:26 PM
  #516
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Are the Sabres just stepping to the podium more frequently and with higher picks? Could that be a big part of what separates the 2 teams?

I will say I don't like the direction of going after size. Last year I read a detailed breakdown of draft picks and it showed it's extremely difficult to pick big, quality NHL forwards outside of the top 30(?) and that you're much much more likely to come away with a solid player the smaller they get. In short, going with smaller forwards outside the 1st rd yields much better results than going for size. The Sabres are 1 team that seem to overlook size - could play into their excellent results...
Sabres have benefitted from where they pick. Myers (12th), Ennis (26th), Adam (44th), Kassian (13th), McNabb (66th), Foligno (104th), Pysyk (23rd), Armia (16th), Grigorenko (12th), Girgensons (14th).

They've had a lot of hits, mostly higher picks, but there's also a lot of huge misses. If you look at 2008, 2009, and 2010 outside of those hits, it's pretty crap draft. Guys like Corey Fienhage in the 3rd round of 2008, Jérôme Gauthier-Leduc and Kevin Sundher in 2010, Mark Adams in 2009.

They clearly do something right since they're good with their 1st rounders and had some nice hits in 2009 in 3rd and 4th, but they've also missed big time on some players where those guys didn't even develop into AHLers.

Trying to compare Canucks to Sabres is ultimately useless, they always pick higher than we do and have more of those picks than we do. Part of it is because they get to sell off players at the deadline while we're trying to go for the Cup.

To add, I don't think they've exactly done an amazing job with some of those 1sts like Armia or Pysyk, but they've also had excellent luck in getting both Grigorenko and Girgensons last year. Hard to compete with that.


Last edited by Tiranis: 12-20-2012 at 08:36 PM.
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12-20-2012, 08:45 PM
  #517
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Thinking on it further, I actually challenge that Corrado is the exact kind of player I am advising against. It comes down to scouts/evaluators judging him to have poor/good hockey sense. The caveat being that he can have good overall hockey IQ while still needing to clean up his Dzone play. So if he was good everywhere else, and thought to be smart enough to eventually clean up his Dzone play, does that mean he had good hockey IQ, or bad?
If you are advising against what McNally is, then Corrado (pre-draft) was the exact kind of player you are advising against.

Again, describing Corrado pre-draft: a skilled PMD who liked to rush and was known for his eye catching rushes up the ice, an excellent skater, known for his play on the offensive side of the puck, however, had concerns with his defensive game in regards to positioning, coverage in front of the net and in his decision making with the puck. Had concerns about his strength and size. He was described as raw, a risky player but a project with high potential. Hockey IQ was average to above average; not excellent, but not poor either. You wouldn't find it listed as a strength on a scouting report.

Where they might differ is that McNally is even more skilled offensively and can QB a PP, whereas at the time, Corrado was not really seen as a true PP QB and had questions as to whether or not he would ever develop into one at the OHL level. However, Corrado always had an attitude where he would not back down from opponents and would chirp/be a bit grittier. McNally not so much.

If you can honestly say McNally wasn't similar when he was drafted, I'm not too sure what else i can say.

------

Corrado has developed his play significantly. His defensive game is excellent and in a way, i'd say his defensive game is better than his offensive. He reads the game much better than he used to and a lot of that has to do with coaching and learning the game. As i've mentioned before, after training camp practice, he stayed an extra 10 minutes talking to Bowness one on one, looked like he was talking about the drills they were doing. Then PRNuck mentioned he stayed and talked to the coaches at the WJC camp. This is a guy who learned and was highly willing to learn, to put in the effort to develop. And as a result, he has taken his game to another level defensively.

He used to be labelled as solely an offensive Dman. Since he's been drafted, he's been labelled as one of the best defensive defensemen in the OHL by coaches and now one of the best two way D in the OHL. It might not be a 180 degree transformation, but the development path he has taken is steep.


Last edited by thefeebster: 12-20-2012 at 08:52 PM.
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12-20-2012, 08:46 PM
  #518
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I still love how McNally can't make a breakout pass because of one video.

Bleach: Athanisiaou (or however the heck you spell it) is exactly the type of player you're against picking - skilled but no hockey IQ. Might have he best hands ever, but thinks the game like a peewee. Almost the same way you're trying to paint McNally.

I think this is an excellent discussion to have, and without a bit of attitude from all it seems to be going well.

I can only hope Gillis and his staff have these similar debates when discussing attributes to scout for. And hopefully they're as passionate as we are.

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12-20-2012, 08:46 PM
  #519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
What about Mallet? You said you liked targeting this type of player because he represents somewhat of a safe pick, even though his game is built around size and toughness in place of skill and smarts. You should be against the Mallet selection...


Hard to get a read on Mallet, but I'd say he actually is smart. That he actually does have a good hockey IQ. As for the skill side - he put up 81 points in his draft year, so there's something to work with there. Actually, I'd say Mallet is pretty versatile actually, it's just that he's having a hard time producing at the moment.



As long as a player has a good hockey IQ, I'll tend to give them the benefit of the doubt. It's just with McNally, he seems to play off instinct just as much, and his instinct is to rush the puck. So let's see if he can get over that/compartmentalize it to advance.




Quote:
I wonder if the Canucks biggest issue with drafting is simply how few picks they've had and where they select. Is there a team in the NHL with fewer picks than the Canucks over the last 5-7 years?

Are the Sabres just stepping to the podium more frequently and with higher picks? Could that be a big part of what separates the 2 teams?

I will say I don't like the direction of going after size. Last year I read a detailed breakdown of draft picks and it showed it's extremely difficult to pick big, quality NHL forwards outside of the top 30(?) and that you're much much more likely to come away with a solid player the smaller they get. In short, going with smaller forwards outside the 1st rd yields much better results than going for size. The Sabres are 1 team that seem to overlook size - could play into their excellent results...



A lack of picks is _definitely_ a factor. No doubt about it.



How would you explain BUF drafting after VAN and picking a better player then? At that point, quality of scouting would have to be considered.



I completely agree with that size/no size argument. Pick the smaller forwards. Yet, the call is for the big PWFs.

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12-20-2012, 08:55 PM
  #520
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How would you explain BUF drafting after VAN and picking a better player then? At that point, quality of scouting would have to be considered.
Doesn't Buffalo usually draft before Vancouver and with many more picks? If you're refering to the Hodgson pick, it was the right choice at the time of the draft IMO. As Myers was the right pick for the Sabres at 12.

Chicago is seen as a very good drafting team and they took Beach over Myers. Goes to show how much of a crap-shoot the draft really is and why frequency and location of picks is probably the biggest factor, as well as development.

I still can't think of a team in the league that has picked less than the Canucks over the last 5-7 years...

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12-20-2012, 09:04 PM
  #521
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Originally Posted by thefeebster View Post
If you are advising against what McNally is, then Corrado (pre-draft) was the exact kind of player you are advising against.

Again, describing Corrado pre-draft: a skilled PMD who liked to rush and was known for his eye catching rushes up the ice, an excellent skater, known for his play on the offensive side of the puck, however, had concerns with his defensive game in regards to positioning, coverage in front of the net and in his decision making with the puck. Had concerns about his strength and size. He was described as raw, a risky player but a project with high potential. Hockey IQ was average to above average; not excellent, but not poor either. You wouldn't find it listed as a strength on a scouting report.

Where they might differ is that McNally is even more skilled offensively and can QB a PP, whereas at the time, Corrado was not really seen as a true PP QB and had questions as to whether or not he would ever develop into one at the OHL level. However, Corrado always had an attitude where he would not back down from opponents and would chirp/be a bit grittier. McNally not so much.

If you can honestly say McNally wasn't similar when he was drafted, I'm not too sure what else i can say.

------

Corrado has developed his play significantly. His defensive game is excellent and in a way, i'd say his defensive game is better than his offensive. He reads the game much better than he used to and a lot of that has to do with coaching and learning the game. As i've mentioned before, after training camp practice, he stayed an extra 10 minutes talking to Bowness one on one, looked like he was talking about the drills they were doing. Then PRNuck mentioned he stayed and talked to the coaches at the WJC camp. This is a guy who learned and was highly willing to learn, to put in the effort to develop. And as a result, he has taken his game to another level defensively.

He used to be labelled as solely an offensive Dman. Since he's been drafted, he's been labelled as one of the best defensive defensemen in the OHL by coaches and now one of the best two way D in the OHL. It might not be a 180 degree transformation, but the development path he has taken is steep.




All good points. It wasn't a 180 degree transformation, but the development path was steep - meaning very difficult. Which would make it just as hard for McNally if they were the same when drafted.



Medium to good hockey IQ is a hell of a lot better than the medium to poor that Connauten and Sauve get tagged with now and again. From watching him now, Corrado seems more on the good side of the ledger, but whatever.

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12-20-2012, 09:07 PM
  #522
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I wonder if the Canucks biggest issue with drafting is simply how few picks they've had and where they select. Is there a team in the NHL with fewer picks than the Canucks over the last 5-7 years?

.
Off the top of my head I think the Sharks.

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12-20-2012, 09:10 PM
  #523
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Doesn't Buffalo usually draft before Vancouver and with many more picks? If you're refering to the Hodgson pick, it was the right choice at the time of the draft IMO. As Myers was the right pick for the Sabres at 12.

Chicago is seen as a very good drafting team and they took Beach over Myers. Goes to show how much of a crap-shoot the draft really is and why frequency and location of picks is probably the biggest factor, as well as development.

I still can't think of a team in the league that has picked less than the Canucks over the last 5-7 years...


Yes, BUF drafts before VAN usually. But I'm referring to those picks that are used after a VAN pick to draft a better player. Example, McNabb (3rd round) over Rodin (2nd round) in 2009. Or Foligno (4th round) over Connauten (3rd round). Scouting plays a role here.

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12-20-2012, 09:10 PM
  #524
Outside99*
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JGL may turn out to be a very good 3rd round pick for the Sabres. Has a lot of skill and was certainly able to keep up in the game I saw. Had a rough start to his pro career in the AHL (many players from the Q do) but is getting regular ice time now. Certainly looks like a lot more promising pick than any of the 4 2nd/3rd round picks from the Q by the Canucks (though I do think Mallet has potential, its a longer shot with less upside than JGL). YMMV.

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Old
12-20-2012, 09:11 PM
  #525
Jevo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by me2 View Post
Doesn't pass. Goals called off for kicking. Now if only he dives he'll be the prefect canuck.
From the highlights (start at 1:20 for shot on goal and kick from Jensen) it doesn't look like much more of a kick than the D. Sedin 'kick' against the Kings a couple of years ago.

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