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Lockout continues Part V - Hockey cancelled till January 14th

View Poll Results: OWNERS OR PLAYERS, who do you support
owners 75 62.50%
players 45 37.50%
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Old
12-20-2012, 04:54 PM
  #726
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Originally Posted by rumman View Post
the Owners are stupid, why do they pay players so much?????? I can't see any reason a player should settle for less than a owner is willing to pay them, I know if my employer was willing to pay me double what I was worth, I wouldn't refuse. Owners are the problem, even with a Cap they continually shoot themselves in the foot, take the Wild for example, their owner has complained about player salaries for years, so whats he do? goes out and give Suter and Pariese to deals that could cripple the team in years to come?????????
If the poor teams don't make an effort to acquire star players, they will lose the little fans they have.
In order for the poor teams to acquire star players, they compete against the rich teams who have enough money to offer very large contracts.
The poor teams are then forced to spend money they don't have in order to acquire star players so as to not lose their fans.

And that is the precise reason that a cap needs to be in place. It gives the non hockey market teams a fighting chance to be competitive and grow their fan base.

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12-20-2012, 04:59 PM
  #727
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Title edited to reflect the new cancellation date. Just get it over with and cancel the season.

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12-20-2012, 05:21 PM
  #728
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Just saw on the news NHL cancelled season until January 14.

Sigh...
Pathetic. The PA should have taken the NHL's final offer 2 weeks ago.

No way Fehr stalls out then gets a better offer from the NHL sometine in January at the deadline. No way! The NHL can't do any better and won't! It would send out the wrong message to the PA to just sit stall and wait until the deadline to get your best offer. So either the PA agrees to the NHL's final offer before the deadline or we are done with the season.

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12-20-2012, 06:45 PM
  #729
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Originally Posted by MapleLeafGardens View Post
Pathetic. The PA should have taken the NHL's final offer 2 weeks ago.

No way Fehr stalls out then gets a better offer from the NHL sometine in January at the deadline. No way! The NHL can't do any better and won't! It would send out the wrong message to the PA to just sit stall and wait until the deadline to get your best offer. So either the PA agrees to the NHL's final offer before the deadline or we are done with the season.
We really should be done with the season and we should have some firings.

This happens every end of CBA since he arrived, and we know they will lock-out the players at the end of the next CBA.

Time to get in some leadership that can build a partnership amongst all players and franchises.

It is broken and the same people continuously pull off the same stunts and if they are there next time it will be exactly the same.

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12-20-2012, 06:49 PM
  #730
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Originally Posted by MapleLeafGardens View Post
A stronger more financially stable 20 team NHL with a significantly improved on ice product...

Toronto Maple Leafs
Boston Bruins
Buffalo Sabres (losing money but could return to profits)
Calgary Flames
Chicago Blackhawks
Detroit Red Wings
Edmonton Oilers
Los Angeles Kings
Minnesota North Stars (change back to orig 67 name please)
Montreal Canadiens
New York Rangers
Philadelphia Flyers
Pittsburgh Penguins
Ottawa Senators
St Louis Blues (strong orig 67 team that could return to profitability)
Vancouver Canucks
Washington Capitals
Winnipeg Jets
Quebec Nordiques
20. Tough decision who to put in for the 20th team Forbes list of NHL teams operating income...

http://www.forbes.com/nhl-valuations...on:asc_search:
20.Hamilton Tigers?

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12-20-2012, 08:20 PM
  #731
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
We really should be done with the season and we should have some firings.

This happens every end of CBA since he arrived, and we know they will lock-out the players at the end of the next CBA.

Time to get in some leadership that can build a partnership amongst all players and franchises.

It is broken and the same people continuously pull off the same stunts and if they are there next time it will be exactly the same.
Yep.

Lets just get it done and over with.

Then we will see how bad the players want to play, and how much the teams that make money want to pay their players.

There has to be a REAL partnership between ownership and the players with a common goal of doing what it best for the game.

On one side we are being held hostage by a few owners who bought a money losing business and are crying about it as if they didn't know about it when they bought the team.

And on the other side we are being held hostage by a few players with crazy contracts and more importantly, some bad advice from agents, who are only looking to line their own pockets even further.

We have two ultra stubborn leaders who need to be turfed to the side if any sort of comprimise is going to be found. I heard Brisson wants to try some more players-owners meetings. Good luck.

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12-20-2012, 08:30 PM
  #732
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MapleLeafGardens View Post
A stronger more financially stable 20 team NHL with a significantly improved on ice product...

Toronto Maple Leafs
Boston Bruins
Buffalo Sabres (losing money but could return to profits)
Calgary Flames
Chicago Blackhawks
Detroit Red Wings
Edmonton Oilers
Los Angeles Kings
Minnesota North Stars (change back to orig 67 name please)
Montreal Canadiens
New York Rangers
Philadelphia Flyers
Pittsburgh Penguins
Ottawa Senators
St Louis Blues (strong orig 67 team that could return to profitability)
Vancouver Canucks
Washington Capitals
Winnipeg Jets
Quebec Nordiques
20. Tough decision who to put in for the 20th team Forbes list of NHL teams operating income...

http://www.forbes.com/nhl-valuations...on:asc_search:
Some data for perspective on teams viability.

TeamDivPointsTotal Attendance Per Game% CapacityAvg Ticket $
PHOENIXPAC97509,24112,42072.536.15
DALLASPAC89583,30614,22676.829.95
COLUMBUSCEN65601,06114,66080.847.95
NY ISLANDERSATL79540,83813,19181.349.06
CAROLINASE82657,74716,04285.941.58
COLORADONW88635,44015,49886.140.62
ANAHEIMPAC80605,17114,76086.436.94
FLORIDASE94681,76316,62886.655.67
NEW JERSEYATL102631,25815,39687.445.86
TAMPA BAYSE84757,19218,46896.237.73
NASHVILLECEN104684,32416,69097.551.04
ST. LOUISCEN109771,20718,80998.241.57
MINNESOTANW81728,68317,77298.462.63
BUFFALONE89760,55818,55099.938.25
WINNIPEGSE84615,16415,00410098.27
EDMONTONNW74690,39916,83910070.13
SAN JOSEPAC96720,07617,56210049.73
BOSTONNE102720,14517,56410058.94
LOS ANGELESPAC95734,73617,92010051.92
NY RANGERSATL109745,85218,19110066.20
CALGARYNW90790,84919,28910068.18
MONTRÉALNE78872,19321,27310088.67
DETROITCEN102824,70620,114100.753.28
OTTAWANE92793,61219,356101.155.51
WASHINGTONSE92758,74618,506101.362.42
VANCOUVERNW111774,25018,884102.568.38
PITTSBURGHATL108761,22418,566102.763.06
TORONTONE80799,78619,506103.7123.77
CHICAGOCEN101882,87421,53310555.72
PHILADELPHIAATL103837,75420,433107.466.89

If local economies are in the tank you can see why some teams have to price their product so cheaply.

The question is whether that is a permanent situation, or is it a blip. Look at Buffalo, good attendance but one of the lowest prices.

Winnipeg has an undersized arena's and charges a premium for their product.


Last edited by ULF_55: 12-20-2012 at 08:37 PM.
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12-20-2012, 08:44 PM
  #733
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Some data for perspective on teams viability.

If local economies are in the tank you can see why some teams have to price their product so cheaply.

The question is whether that is a permanent situation, or is it a blip. Look at Buffalo, good attendance but one of the lowest prices.

Winnipeg has an undersized arena's and charges a premium for their product.
Buffalo is a bad example. Their tickets are on a sliding scale. When the LEafs go there their ticket prices jump to almost ACC levels. Pittsburg, NYR and a few others see prices go high. So I would question that figure.

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12-20-2012, 08:48 PM
  #734
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Buffalo is a bad example. Their tickets are on a sliding scale. When the LEafs go there their ticket prices jump to almost ACC levels. Pittsburg, NYR and a few others see prices go high. So I would question that figure.
Source is ESPN and you know the opinion on hockey related information.

http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/stars...-ticket-in-nhl

Quote:
A couple of notes on these numbers:

The average ticket price is for what is called general seating categories. The Stars’ average price for a premium ticket is $94.38, which is still a good value when compared to the rest of the league, ranking 26th among the 30 NHL teams.

The Fan Cost Index includes four average-price tickets, two small draft beers, four small soft drinks, four regular-sized hotdogs, parking, two programs and two adult-sized caps.

The highest ticket in the league belongs to the Toronto Maple Leafs at $123.77 and the Maple Leafs also are tops in Fan Cost Index at $626.45.

The average NHL ticket is $57.10 and the average Fan Cost Index is $326.45.
http://www.fancostexperience.com/pag...fci_pdfs/6.pdf


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12-20-2012, 09:53 PM
  #735
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The NHL quickly needs to rethink their thinking about setting a final deadline date if they are going to salvage even a 48 game schedule. The NHL has said they don't want to give a deadline to Fehr because he will stall right to the deadline for a better deal.

Well that ain't working, no deadline has been set and Fehr and the PA are still stalling. The NHL needs to submit a deadline date to the PA for acceptance of their final offer or they cancel the season. They need to make it clear the offer will not improve at the deadline and hold firm. Fehr then needs to go to the PA and let them vote on it.

If the NHL suddenly tables a better offer at the deadline they will have zero credibility in future CBA's, none zero. They know this so i do not expect their offer to improve in January. If the PA wants a 30 team NHL and all the lucrative jobs that go with it they have to give the owners what they need going forward for the health of the league, accept their best final offer and be thankful. Set a deadline date let the PA vote on it or just cancel the season.

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12-20-2012, 10:09 PM
  #736
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HockeyCentral reporting tonight @ 11pm that the NHL has told sponsors January 14th is the latest they will go to drop the puck on a season.

HC panel then offered that a deal must be done by January 4th-7th at the latest.

NHL is making the right move here enough is enough the PA has it's deadline date.

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12-20-2012, 10:13 PM
  #737
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Originally Posted by MapleLeafGardens View Post
HockeyCentral reporting tonight @ 11pm that the NHL has told sponsors January 14th is the latest they will go to drop the puck on a season.

HC panel then offered that a deal must be done by January 4th-7th at the latest.

NHL is making the right move here enough is enough the PA has it's deadline date.
That doesn't add up. How can January 14 be the LAST day they can drop the puck yet they've cancelled games up until January 14? I'm thinking the report means to say January 15. Would need a CBA done in principle at the very least so that training camps can open for a week or so before January 15.

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12-20-2012, 10:22 PM
  #738
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I love hockey, but this is really trying my patience.

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12-20-2012, 10:29 PM
  #739
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I love hockey, but this is really trying my patience.
Don't worry, this is just NHL brand name of hockey, not hockey itself.

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12-20-2012, 10:53 PM
  #740
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And the NHL also has a better resolution when it comes to saving money on prospects/younger players in terms of control. Right now, the issue is that the star players of today's game, are underpaid with respect to how they would be perceived on markets in other sports. As you've stated, this is because of revenues being larger in other leagues. But part of that reason is due to how the salary cap is structured. It significantly helps your middle-level NHL players, and does not focus on your top-level NHL players.

<snip>

The gap between a star player's salary and a middle player's salary has widely decreased since the new CBA.

<snip>

The problem is that owners give out crazy, overpaid contracts to middle-level NHL players and then when it is time to give out those very same contracts to the star players, they begin to cry about it. This is problematic because of the salary cap.
For the sake of demonstration, let's take an average 2nd/3rd liner. Grabo, for instance. Once his ELC wore off, he received a 3 year $3M contract, which was extended by a 5 year $5.5M deal, which expires when he turns 32. If Grabo is EXTREMELY lucky, he'll find a sucker GM (hopefully not Burke) to give him a 5 year $4M deal to enter into the twilight of his career. Career earnings: ~ $56M, avg per season: $4.3M

Now let's compare his career earnings to say, Crosby. Crosby's cap hit has been $8.7M since his ELC expired. First a 5 year contract @ $8.7M per, then a 12 year contract @ $8.7M per. He will be 37-38 when his last contract expires with an $8.7M cap hit. Career earnings: ~$150M, avg per season: $8.7M

I'm sorry, that's not even close. Comparing a mid tier player's salary during his prime to a star's front loaded contract's avg cap hit is very deceptive. Take a look at the actual salaries received year to year to make such comparisons. Crosby's $12M, Pronger's $7M, etc. Stars are being paid like NHL stars, and end up with 2-3x the career earnings of an average player. Under the previous CBA, that difference is even larger should a serious injury occur to the player, since their contract does not last until they're pretty much ready to retire.

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Just to add, increasing revenues probably should not be a goal if you plan to have a lockout this often.

This is because of the lack of a sound economic structure which all teams can live with. If the league wants to go with a 30 team-model, then they need to figure out a sound business model. They currently do not have one.
Unfortunately, lockout is a necessary evil when shortsighted players are involved. Consider the owners' current demands. Imagine if on top of introducing the cap, and whatever else was changed in the previous CBA, the current demands would have been added to that list, as well. How long do you think the '04-'05 lockout would have lasted?

They have to use baby steps. Each time they try to tweak the model, this is what happens. How can they try to fix it when every single suggestion to improve the business, and expand the popularity of the game is treated as billionaires trying to pull one over on us?

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12-20-2012, 11:04 PM
  #741
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Don't worry, this is just NHL brand name of hockey, not hockey itself.
HEy you've seen my posts about not getting Marlies games.

I am enjoying the SN CHL hockey.

I do want to see the best of the best though.

As I said the Stanley Cup technically does not belong to the NHL.

If MLSE and a few other team split/quit the NHL they should be able to keep the trophy.

Just give me hockey.

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12-20-2012, 11:54 PM
  #742
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the Owners are stupid, why do they pay players so much?????? I can't see any reason a player should settle for less than a owner is willing to pay them, I know if my employer was willing to pay me double what I was worth, I wouldn't refuse. Owners are the problem, even with a Cap they continually shoot themselves in the foot, take the Wild for example, their owner has complained about player salaries for years, so whats he do? goes out and give Suter and Pariese to deals that could cripple the team in years to come?????????
the league should not blame their own failures on the players who have held up their end of the bargain. even in LA and Nashville and Anaheim and Phoenix. Like Shane Doan said, Id like to see the owners try to play this sport. Why should they feel the brunt of the burden for the failed marketing plan. pretty sure we could have a much better league with fewer teams and less crap involving prospects being chanced away to teams. they should be able to pick the team that pays them most and thats why I think the CHL player association should simply merge into a new union and then Toronto should be able to get 1st overal quality picks since they value them the highest and can pay because the fans really like the team. JUst like any of the good teams in the league right now. If you are a better and more financially wealthy team, your money should be good. players could make more if there were simply less teams. i dont get how leaf fans can be in favor of owners. they screw over the leafs because we are left to the intentional sabotage of management who want to milk profit in return for regional protection. I can tell you who Jim Balsillie is siding with and thats the players who he was just dying to pay to play for him in a hot marketplace. Would of been great but the NHL is anticompetitive as ive been stating over and over and it really hurts us Leafs fans. They have enough liability franchises to replace them with lucrative opportunities in Ontario and Quebec and that means more Canadian dollars into the harmonized revenue pool. So the NHL basically hurts its own bottom line, rigs drafts, and rigs refs to ruin everything. come to think of it , Ithink that this league is just corrupt.

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12-21-2012, 02:31 AM
  #743
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the league should not blame their own failures on the players who have held up their end of the bargain. even in LA and Nashville and Anaheim and Phoenix. Like Shane Doan said, Id like to see the owners try to play this sport. Why should they feel the brunt of the burden for the failed marketing plan. pretty sure we could have a much better league with fewer teams and less crap involving prospects being chanced away to teams. they should be able to pick the team that pays them most and thats why I think the CHL player association should simply merge into a new union and then Toronto should be able to get 1st overal quality picks since they value them the highest and can pay because the fans really like the team. JUst like any of the good teams in the league right now. If you are a better and more financially wealthy team, your money should be good. players could make more if there were simply less teams. i dont get how leaf fans can be in favor of owners. they screw over the leafs because we are left to the intentional sabotage of management who want to milk profit in return for regional protection. I can tell you who Jim Balsillie is siding with and thats the players who he was just dying to pay to play for him in a hot marketplace. Would of been great but the NHL is anticompetitive as ive been stating over and over and it really hurts us Leafs fans. They have enough liability franchises to replace them with lucrative opportunities in Ontario and Quebec and that means more Canadian dollars into the harmonized revenue pool. So the NHL basically hurts its own bottom line, rigs drafts, and rigs refs to ruin everything. come to think of it , Ithink that this league is just corrupt.
Fans who want to keep a 30 team league and like the idea of growing the game seem to support the owners.

Fans that think the league should contract and just stay in the more traditional hockey markets seem to support the players.

So I think all these arguments we do about who's "greedier" and such are beside the point. For the players and owners, this lockout is about money. For us fans, it's more about which nhl we'd like better.

I personally would just really like a league where success is created primarily by intelligent management decisions, not financial advantages.
You call the league "anti-competitive". But it's just as competitive as before. The only difference is that the teams must now compete using intelligent management decisions, not bidding wars.
That's a far superior league, in my opinion.


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12-21-2012, 03:16 AM
  #744
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I really don't care about sides at this point. Bot have played there role in us having no hockey here.

Let's just get this over with one way or the other. This better really be the last cancellation before the season itself goes. Either get some hockey going or cancel the damn thing. Enough dragging this out.

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12-21-2012, 06:17 AM
  #745
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Time to just kill the season so all of the rich people can have many more months to play stupid mindless stalling games and argue about their riches.

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12-21-2012, 08:44 AM
  #746
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One thing the league had going for itself coming out of the last lockout was that they made a concerted effort to address the quality of the game. Given that doesn't seem to be on their radar this time, I wonder what their sell is for bringing fans back?

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12-21-2012, 09:03 AM
  #747
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Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
I really don't care about sides at this point. Bot have played there role in us having no hockey here.

Let's just get this over with one way or the other. This better really be the last cancellation before the season itself goes. Either get some hockey going or cancel the damn thing. Enough dragging this out.
This is how I've been feeling lately. If your this close, as it seems, then both parties are at fault. I've been on the players side mostly, but not entirely. I'm becoming very indifferent to 'sides' lately.


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One thing the league had going for itself coming out of the last lockout was that they made a concerted effort to address the quality of the game. Given that doesn't seem to be on their radar this time, I wonder what their sell is for bringing fans back?

Good point. This will be a tough sell. If the season is cancelled, the league has really shot themselves in the foot big time. I'm sure Bettman will take the fall for the stubborn decisions of a small minority.

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12-21-2012, 09:36 AM
  #748
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Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
I really don't care about sides at this point. Bot have played there role in us having no hockey here.

Let's just get this over with one way or the other. This better really be the last cancellation before the season itself goes. Either get some hockey going or cancel the damn thing. Enough dragging this out.
Sums it up pretty nicely. I think we're at the last hurdle before we find out the fate of this season.

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12-21-2012, 09:37 AM
  #749
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Time to just kill the season so all of the rich people can have many more months to play stupid mindless stalling games and argue about their riches.
How much do you want to bet that if the season were cancelled they would take a long break from negociating and not seriously start up again until it matters at the start of next season when it starts cutting into that season as well...seems to be the way the NHL and NHLPA do things these days.

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12-21-2012, 09:43 AM
  #750
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How much do you want to bet that if the season were cancelled they would take a long break from negociating and not seriously start up again until it matters at the start of next season when it starts cutting into that season as well...seems to be the way the NHL and NHLPA do things these days.
Wouldn't it be better if there was no union to negotiate with?

Teams could just compete for players on the open market and players agents would deal with the individual contracts.

Lock-out? What lock-out?

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