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NHL Lockout Discusion XXXIII: It's the same old song. **MOD WARNING POST 274

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Old
12-21-2012, 08:52 AM
  #726
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Of course the DOI vote will pass. 95% of these morons don't even know what it means. I'm not even sure if union leadership fully understands, as I've never heard of union members themselves voting to allow the union to file DOI.

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12-21-2012, 08:56 AM
  #727
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If the PA disclaims interest, would that open the door for the NHL to use replacement players?

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12-21-2012, 08:59 AM
  #728
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
Jackpot.......That is what makes the players expendable. That is why the owners will win.
It's really funny how delusional the players are. Hell, they contribute to the product on the ice and I enjoy watching good players. But, players come and go...the teams (for the most part) do not. We buy jerseys without names on the back. We get tattoos of team logos, not players.

I keep hearing that the NHL has the greatest fans. It does. They're the type of fans that would support their TEAM no matter what and can turn on players in a heartbeat. We see it all the time with players who get traded or do something to piss fans off.

Players are expendable... They don't deserve ANYTHING. They clearly have other options (Europe). So let them go play there and I'll continue to support my team with new players.

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12-21-2012, 09:02 AM
  #729
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
If this is true... I can't see anyone backing the players. It was the discussions from that Tuesday night WITH THE PLAYERS who got that ball rolling.

What a complete and utter joke. Let 'em lose a season's pay. Then they can tell the young players what not to do next time around.
You mean like all the retired players who tried telling them to get the best deal possible and get back on the ice because they can't win?

The current players sure listened there.

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12-21-2012, 09:05 AM
  #730
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Honeycutt View Post
If the PA disclaims interest, would that open the door for the NHL to use replacement players?
I don't believe so. As I understand it, DOI if awarded removes the right of the NHLPA to represent the union. It does not dissolve the union, just removes their leadership. Although apparently there exists numerous ways for the old leadership to still work in conjunction with the union even if the DOI is accepted in court.

Desertification on the other hand dissolves the union. In that scenario the league could use replacement players without violating labor law. At least that is my understanding.

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Old
12-21-2012, 09:05 AM
  #731
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Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
First of all, almost nobody in here has claimed the players would get 57% over the term of the deal. What they're claiming is that 1st year split of 56.5% isn't a rollback on salary - therefore the players need to shut their mouths about how they're being taken advantage of. I think that's a valid point.

Scenario: League revenues decrease to $3B. Player's share is $1.5B on 50/50 split. However, cap set at $67.5M midpoint. That's equivalent to $2B in SALARY - the share is only $1.5B.

Past player salaries were $1.8B. Of that, $215M is Make Whole money. That leaves $1.585B. Again, the player share is only $1.5B.

Under the NHLPA %-based system, with a $67M midpoint, in order for the league to BARELY meet the floor requirements under the above scenario it would have to be set at $50M - that's 25% of the median. In reality it would probably be much lower because even spending 'just' to the floor would equal the player's share.

Make Whole is outside the split so ask yourself why does all this room need to be there when the player's share is linked to revenue? Why even have a fixed cap median?

In the best case scenario setting a never reducing cap number is an unnecessary complication whether it has any bearing on the final player share or not. So why the hell is it in there, especially at this late stage when time is a valuable commodity?

The answer is that it creates an artificially large gap in the floor and ceiling. Sure, the players share will be still 50% but there will be such a large range in the cap that the cap will essentially cease to matter. So rich clubs can flex their financial muscle and we can have Yankee/Rangers style teams again in the NHL.

$3.2B Revenue (-2.5% growth): 52-67-80 (floor 20% of median)
$3.3B Revenue (0.0% growth): 54-67-79 (floor 18% of median)
$3.4B Revenue (2.5% growth): 56-67-78 (floor 16% of median)
$3.5B Revenue (5.0% growth): 58-67-76 (floor 14% of median)

Keep in mind that last year's ceiling was $70M. Under the fixed +/- 8M cap, LEAGUE REVENUES WOULD HAVE TO GROW TO $4.3B TO REACH A CEILING OF $80M. At 5% growth, that kind of revenue would not have been seen until year SEVEN if there had been no work stoppage.
Well done Mossey.

The quick shallow hit without actually 'running the numbers" is all too typical of Fehr and his media fans. You still hear so many of then claiming that the sides are on the same page with financials and that the PA has already agreed to 50-50.Good to see this nose stretcher put to rest.

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Old
12-21-2012, 09:07 AM
  #732
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
It's really funny how delusional the players are. Hell, they contribute to the product on the ice and I enjoy watching good players. But, players come and go...the teams (for the most part) do not. We buy jerseys without names on the back. We get tattoos of team logos, not players.

I keep hearing that the NHL has the greatest fans. It does. They're the type of fans that would support their TEAM no matter what and can turn on players in a heartbeat. We see it all the time with players who get traded or do something to piss fans off.

Players are expendable... They don't deserve ANYTHING. They clearly have other options (Europe). So let them go play there and I'll continue to support my team with new players.
Great post, fully agree

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Old
12-21-2012, 09:09 AM
  #733
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
If this is true... I can't see anyone backing the players. It was the discussions from that Tuesday night WITH THE PLAYERS who got that ball rolling.

What a complete and utter joke. Let 'em lose a season's pay. Then they can tell the young players what not to do next time around.
I know emotions are running really high during the lockout, but come on man.

First you acknowledge that the statement might not even be factual, but then immediately lambaste the PA in the next paragraph because of that potentially non-factual statement?

People need to just chill and get a little perspective. We're being fed PR horseapples from BOTH sides, and the frothing, foaming-at-the-mouth bashing of one or the other (and anyone who tries to discuss something from either point of view) is absolutely ridiculous.

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12-21-2012, 09:12 AM
  #734
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Originally Posted by MacOfNiagara View Post
I don't believe so. As I understand it, DOI if awarded removes the right of the NHLPA to represent the union. It does not dissolve the union, just removes their leadership. Although apparently there exists numerous ways for the old leadership to still work in conjunction with the union even if the DOI is accepted in court.

Desertification on the other hand dissolves the union. In that scenario the league could use replacement players without violating labor law. At least that is my understanding.
I don't think DOI has to be rewarded by the courts. How can the courts force a union to stay together (regardless of why they want to dissolve)?

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Old
12-21-2012, 09:14 AM
  #735
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Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
First of all, almost nobody in here has claimed the players would get 57% over the term of the deal. What they're claiming is that 1st year split of 56.5% isn't a rollback on salary - therefore the players need to shut their mouths about how they're being taken advantage of. I think that's a valid point.

Scenario: League revenues decrease to $3B. Player's share is $1.5B on 50/50 split. However, cap set at $67.5M midpoint. That's equivalent to $2B in SALARY - the share is only $1.5B.

Past player salaries were $1.8B. Of that, $215M is Make Whole money. That leaves $1.585B. Again, the player share is only $1.5B.

Under the NHLPA %-based system, with a $67M midpoint, in order for the league to BARELY meet the floor requirements under the above scenario it would have to be set at $50M - that's 25% of the median. In reality it would probably be much lower because even spending 'just' to the floor would equal the player's share.

Make Whole is outside the split so ask yourself why does all this room need to be there when the player's share is linked to revenue? Why even have a fixed cap median?

In the best case scenario setting a never reducing cap number is an unnecessary complication whether it has any bearing on the final player share or not. So why the hell is it in there, especially at this late stage when time is a valuable commodity?

The answer is that it creates an artificially large gap in the floor and ceiling. Sure, the players share will be still 50% but there will be such a large range in the cap that the cap will essentially cease to matter. So rich clubs can flex their financial muscle and we can have Yankee/Rangers style teams again in the NHL.

$3.2B Revenue (-2.5% growth): 52-67-80 (floor 20% of median)
$3.3B Revenue (0.0% growth): 54-67-79 (floor 18% of median)
$3.4B Revenue (2.5% growth): 56-67-78 (floor 16% of median)
$3.5B Revenue (5.0% growth): 58-67-76 (floor 14% of median)

Keep in mind that last year's ceiling was $70M. Under the fixed +/- 8M cap, LEAGUE REVENUES WOULD HAVE TO GROW TO $4.3B TO REACH A CEILING OF $80M. At 5% growth, that kind of revenue would not have been seen until year SEVEN if there had been no work stoppage.
Good stuff. Makes you worry that this thing is pretty far from done with the deadline looming. Fehr will continue trying to pull these strange mathematical games and the league will shoot it down in ten minutes. Of course players will start crying and we'll be back to square one.

But good stuff, would read again. A+++

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Old
12-21-2012, 09:14 AM
  #736
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So... Fehr says the group is willing to negotiate, but won't go off of the negotiated discussions from the ONE day where optimism came from. They also want to "look out" for the future players while they are currently taking their spots on other teams and not getting the game of hockey growing.

How do the players not realize how much damage they are going to bring to the game? The owners are billionaires without hockey. These guys need this money. These guys need the game to be growing.

I simply cannot believe this is happening to the game we love.

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12-21-2012, 09:16 AM
  #737
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riddick View Post
You mean like all the retired players who tried telling them to get the best deal possible and get back on the ice because they can't win?

The current players sure listened there.
Very true... very true. And I'm not trying to be against the players. I agree with them that the contract issue is weird to the point where we gave out the biggest deals then want to go out and say "haha... we can't give you those!" I agree with the players there.

But what's best for the game of hockey is continue growing it.

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12-21-2012, 09:16 AM
  #738
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I'll agree with the argument that Bettman bullying the players ended up with them bringing Fehr in to combat him but I worry that Beatlejuice is about to ruin a full season of hockey.

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Old
12-21-2012, 09:19 AM
  #739
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Everyone spouting bs about just going with replacement playerz. honestly youre all talking out your as***. You wouldnt be a fan of the nhl if they werent the league wit the best players in the first place. what makes u think they'd do better with replacement players, the which have (for he most part ahl talent.) If they get replacement players i'm turning to the khl full time.

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12-21-2012, 09:24 AM
  #740
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Originally Posted by Atwell 08 View Post
Everyone spouting bs about just going with replacement playerz. honestly youre all talking out your as***. You wouldnt be a fan of the nhl if they werent the league wit the best players in the first place. what makes u think they'd do better with replacement players, the which have (for he most part ahl talent.) If they get replacement players i'm turning to the khl full time.
I am a blues fan from 05-07 they pretty much had a team of replacement players. I follow the logo not the player.

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Old
12-21-2012, 09:27 AM
  #741
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I'm still lost on this voting of disclaimer thing.

Someone aware me...so is it likely going to pass? If so, that means? No season?

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12-21-2012, 09:30 AM
  #742
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Why do I picture every player leaping from a cliff into the ocean as they sign?

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12-21-2012, 09:31 AM
  #743
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Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
I'll agree with the argument that Bettman bullying the players ended up with them bringing Fehr in to combat him but I worry that Beatlejuice is about to ruin a full season of hockey.
Beatlejuice Gold CG....pure gold

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12-21-2012, 09:32 AM
  #744
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I am a blues fan from 05-07 they pretty much had a team of replacement players. I follow the logo not the player.
If u started cheering for them and watching hockey from 05-07 then i accept your point.

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12-21-2012, 09:32 AM
  #745
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Who are "some"? Pretty much everyone expected the players to vote yes to this.
There is/was a small sample who thought or were hoping for the PA vote to fail because of their deep hatred for the players. Everything is the players fault. The owners are trying to make a living but the greedy players won't let them. Blah. Blah.

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12-21-2012, 09:32 AM
  #746
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Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
I'll agree with the argument that Bettman bullying the players ended up with them bringing Fehr in to combat him but I worry that Beatlejuice is about to ruin a full season of hockey.
How have they been bullied? They were taking 75 percent of revenue and pushing for more. Bettman would not have been doing his job had he not tried to get the player compensation under control. Goodenow, who was even then being advised by Fehr, let everyone know that the players would sit out for 2 years to avoid the cap.

It didn't work out as planned but the NHL players still have probably the best deal of any of the major North American sports especially when you consider that they are the smallest in terms of revenue

The players would have vilified anyone who tried to wrench the steering wheel away from them, and they are fighting to try to get it back, but it needed to be done for the health of the league.

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12-21-2012, 09:32 AM
  #747
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
It's really funny how delusional the players are. Hell, they contribute to the product on the ice and I enjoy watching good players. But, players come and go...the teams (for the most part) do not. We buy jerseys without names on the back. We get tattoos of team logos, not players.

I keep hearing that the NHL has the greatest fans. It does. They're the type of fans that would support their TEAM no matter what and can turn on players in a heartbeat. We see it all the time with players who get traded or do something to piss fans off.

Players are expendable... They don't deserve ANYTHING. They clearly have other options (Europe). So let them go play there and I'll continue to support my team with new players.
I feel the exact same way as you do. It's not about the names on the back of the jersey but the logo on the front.

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12-21-2012, 09:34 AM
  #748
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This may have already been posted somewhere, but seriously:

http://www.ottawasun.com/2012/12/20/...ith-qmi-agency

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linked Article
In fact, Daly said he'd find it hard to believe -- given what's separating the two sides -- that the NHL and NHLPA couldn't get a deal in place if they could find a way back to the table.

"I would clearly not understand why we would be in a position of having to cancel the season over the issues that separate us," said Daly.
The NHL needs to make up their collective mind.

First, Daly and Bettman say, “We’re not even close to a deal,” after the last round.

Now Daly, after no further negotiation from the last, “... find(s) it hard to believe—given what’s separating the two sides—that the NHL and NHLPA couldn’t get a deal in place if they could find a way back to the table.”

So which is it, Bill? Are the two sides miles apart, or so close that you can't understand why a deal wouldn't be able to get done?

No wonder everyone is confused.

EDIT: It appears parts of this article have been discussed, and I apologize if I missed anything regarding the point I was trying to make.

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Old
12-21-2012, 09:35 AM
  #749
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Yeah.. but let's be honest people. Crosby, Datsyuk, Malkin, Stamkos, Ovy, etc... If they aren't in the league, the product is significantly worse. I'm a guy who watches for the team, too, but I know other people tune in when it's Malkin/Crosby vs. Stamkos because they know they will get a show.

So to truly get the game where it belongs, there needs to be a trusting relationship.

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12-21-2012, 09:36 AM
  #750
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everyone cares about the logo but the nhl...

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