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NHL Lockout Discusion XXXIII: It's the same old song. **MOD WARNING POST 274

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Old
12-21-2012, 09:36 AM
  #751
Cashville
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedMenace View Post
This may have already been posted somewhere, but seriously:

http://www.ottawasun.com/2012/12/20/...ith-qmi-agency



The NHL needs to make up their collective mind.

First, Daly and Bettman say, “We’re not even close to a deal,” after the last round.

Now Daly, after no further negotiation from the last, “... find(s) it hard to believe—given what’s separating the two sides—that the NHL and NHLPA couldn’t get a deal in place if they could find a way back to the table.”

So which is it, Bill? Are the two sides miles apart, or so close that you can't understand why a deal wouldn't be able to get done?

No wonder everyone is confused.
I agree with the mixed signals. Your avatar epitomizes this lockout well.

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12-21-2012, 09:37 AM
  #752
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
There is/was a small sample who thought or were hoping for the PA vote to fail because of their deep hatred for the players. Everything is the players fault. The owners are trying to make a living but the greedy players won't alone them. Blah. Blah.
There was no deep hatred of the players,and very few expected this vote to fail. I would imagine most expected a soviet style 98 percent victory.

What most would like to see is a vote on an NHL offer-the offer in October or any since. However Fehr has said that the executive council were against it and there have only been "itty bitty" offers and no comprehensive ones, so nothing worth voting on.

Ahem.

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12-21-2012, 09:38 AM
  #753
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
Yeah.. but let's be honest people. Crosby, Datsyuk, Malkin, Stamkos, Ovy, etc... If they aren't in the league, the product is significantly worse. I'm a guy who watches for the team, too, but I know other people tune in when it's Malkin/Crosby vs. Stamkos because they know they will get a show.

So to truly get the game where it belongs, there needs to be a trusting relationship.
Without Crosby, Datsyuk, Malkin, Stamkos, Ovy, etc the league definitely takes a large step back and loses a good portion of it's audience but I'm sure many, like myself, would still watch. I'd expect ticket prices to drop significantly under such a scenario and the a new hockey league re-branding itself, essentially starting from scratch.

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12-21-2012, 09:38 AM
  #754
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Originally Posted by Atwell 08 View Post
If u started cheering for them and watching hockey from 05-07 then i accept your point.
Been a fan since the early 90's. My point is my love for the Blues goes far beyond the players. The could ice a beer league team, which from 05-07 they pretty much did, and i will still watch them. In fact using replacement players would be the only way to get me to buy NHL tickets again. I do not want to support the spoiled PA.

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12-21-2012, 09:39 AM
  #755
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Originally Posted by RL605 View Post
I'm still lost on this voting of disclaimer thing.

Someone aware me...so is it likely going to pass? If so, that means? No season?
Here is what I have gathered of the situation. Someone please correct me if this is inaccurate.

The vote right now is for the players to give the board permission to file a disclaimer of interest. If this vote goes through, that doesn't automatically disclaim interest. The board then has to actually go through with it. Now, the NHL has also filed a lawsuit in an attempt to block the PA from disclaiming interest or decertifying, claiming that the PA really is only using it as a tactic for force the NHL's hand in negotiations. The PA has some time to respond to that lawsuit.

Really, I don't think either side wants doi to happen. The players are hoping that this will pressure the league into a deal (giving the players the upper hand), and the league is hoping if they can block this, it is the players final piece of leverage and they will get the upper hand. Outcome of this eventually determine who gets to tilt the "middle ground" the most in their favor.

It may or may not cost us the season. Both are real options at this point, but the vote passing doesn't directly effect the odds of a season I think. Other leagues have gone further than this and still struck deals.

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12-21-2012, 09:42 AM
  #756
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
Yeah.. but let's be honest people. Crosby, Datsyuk, Malkin, Stamkos, Ovy, etc... If they aren't in the league, the product is significantly worse. I'm a guy who watches for the team, too, but I know other people tune in when it's Malkin/Crosby vs. Stamkos because they know they will get a show.

So to truly get the game where it belongs, there needs to be a trusting relationship.
This. Everyone (for the most part) has a favourite team that they cheer for regardless of the skill on it but if youre a true nhl fan u also want to see the league operating in the best way possible. That is much more achievable with the big stars on the ice. For hardcore fans like us on thoa site, maybe it wouldnt be a big deal with less skilled players on teams because of our love of the game. With that said i shouldnt have to spell out to u guys ow hard it will be for the nhl to essentially start over with new players and try to bring the appeal to non hockey markets.

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12-21-2012, 09:43 AM
  #757
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I heard Daly on Sirius XM,the FAN590 and with Mark Spector this week. In one interview its take it or leave it. With Spector,Daly sort of indicated there was some room to move in the term limits and they are firm on the 10 year CBA. He stopped saying if the players disclaim interest then season is over. Spector asked him about asking the court to dissolve all of the SPCs and Daly said he didn't think it would get to that point. He told the Ottawa Sun the make whole can easily be put back on the table after saying two weeks ago and then leaking it the media that the $300M was gone but its not. Talk about sending mixed messages.

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12-21-2012, 09:44 AM
  #758
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Originally Posted by RL605 View Post
I'm still lost on this voting of disclaimer thing.

Someone aware me...so is it likely going to pass? If so, that means? No season?
Almost a certainty to pass. This passage of the vote gives the authority (even though it was not required) to the NHLPA board to file for DOI if they decide to do so. They are not required to then go ahead and file the DOI.

I suspect they will try and let the league stew with the winning vote and more imminent threat of DOI and see if that builds more pressure / leverage. It won't.

If they do indeed end up filing DOI (I think they will eventually), it will likely end the season as we are only about 2 weeks from having to make a drop dead decision. The legal wheels don't move that fast. It will be an end to the season by default.

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12-21-2012, 09:45 AM
  #759
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Originally Posted by Honeycutt View Post
Been a fan since the early 90's. My point is my love for the Blues goes far beyond the players. The could ice a beer league team, which from 05-07 they pretty much did, and i will still watch them. In fact using replacement players would be the only way to get me to buy NHL tickets again. I do not want to support the spoiled PA.
Well for the nhls sake i hope every fan cares as little about the on ice product as u do.

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Old
12-21-2012, 09:46 AM
  #760
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Who are "some"? Pretty much everyone expected the players to vote yes to this.
Because the NHLPA would never put it to a vote if they didnt think it would pass. Same reason the Republican Congress pulled the vote down last night. They knew it would not pass so they declined to have the vote.

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12-21-2012, 09:46 AM
  #761
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
There is/was a small sample who thought or were hoping for the PA vote to fail because of their deep hatred for the players. Everything is the players fault. The owners are trying to make a living but the greedy players won't let them. Blah. Blah.
i'm pretty sure nobody actually "hates" the players. maybe they do hate the PA. or even donald fehr. but realistically, a lot of folks probably view the players as foolish/stubborn/not-so-smart and wonder if they actually know what's really going on. the biggest concern i'd have is that fehr never finds an offer he can accept and we lose a season due to complete incompetence.

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12-21-2012, 09:46 AM
  #762
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Originally Posted by Cashville View Post
I agree with the mixed signals. Your avatar epitomizes this lockout well.
I don't understand how ANYONE not directly involved in the negotiations can take sides at this point. The only thing I'm worried about, as a fan, are the fans, and the fact that the only professional sports franchise I actually TRULY care about isn't playing any games.

I get that people need a cause, something to get all riled up and pissed off over, but this is getting way out of hand. Neither side has given a straight answer to practically anything since this debacle started.

The avatar fits, for sure.


Last edited by RedMenace: 12-21-2012 at 09:52 AM.
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12-21-2012, 09:49 AM
  #763
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Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
Without Crosby, Datsyuk, Malkin, Stamkos, Ovy, etc the league definitely takes a large step back and loses a good portion of it's audience but I'm sure many, like myself, would still watch. I'd expect ticket prices to drop significantly under such a scenario and the a new hockey league re-branding itself, essentially starting from scratch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atwell 08 View Post
This. Everyone (for the most part) has a favourite team that they cheer for regardless of the skill on it but if youre a true nhl fan u also want to see the league operating in the best way possible. That is much more achievable with the big stars on the ice. For hardcore fans like us on thoa site, maybe it wouldnt be a big deal with less skilled players on teams because of our love of the game. With that said i shouldnt have to spell out to u guys ow hard it will be for the nhl to essentially start over with new players and try to bring the appeal to non hockey markets.
You guys are using hindsight to discredit those who say they'd follow the team, not the player. Did people who follow the NHL jump ship to the WHA when it had better players like Wayne Gretzky?

I cheered for the Jets when they weren't in the NHL, and when they were. It's just a league. You should be open minded enough to accept that some people will cheer for a team and not a group of players you feel are the best. Besides, for all we know the KHL will be offering players 20 million a year to play over there in a few years. Will you just tune out of north american hockey?

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Old
12-21-2012, 09:49 AM
  #764
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
I heard Daly on Sirius XM,the FAN590 and with Mark Spector this week. In one interview its take it or leave it. With Spector,Daly sort of indicated there was some room to move in the term limits and they are firm on the 10 year CBA. He stopped saying if the players disclaim interest then season is over. Spector asked him about asking the court to dissolve all of the SPCs and Daly said he didn't think it would get to that point. He told the Ottawa Sun the make whole can easily be put back on the table after saying two weeks ago and then leaking it the media that the $300M was gone but its not. Talk about sending mixed messages.
you mean like when the PA states that getting their contracts paid in full was the key point? oh wait, now it's the pension fund. no, sorry, that's not it - we really have to have a cap on escrow. enough with the NHL-bashing already. everyone is to blame, but listing the players as these poor unfortunate souls is pretty baseless.

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12-21-2012, 09:50 AM
  #765
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
I heard Daly on Sirius XM,the FAN590 and with Mark Spector this week. In one interview its take it or leave it. With Spector,Daly sort of indicated there was some room to move in the term limits and they are firm on the 10 year CBA. He stopped saying if the players disclaim interest then season is over. Spector asked him about asking the court to dissolve all of the SPCs and Daly said he didn't think it would get to that point. He told the Ottawa Sun the make whole can easily be put back on the table after saying two weeks ago and then leaking it the media that the $300M was gone but its not. Talk about sending mixed messages.
Daly's deviations are minor compared to the PA's propaganda. They're probably a signal to the PA saying that the league will give on a couple of things if they get what they want on others.

I'm not a big fan of how either side is communicating or acting but, like Doug MacLean I am pro-hockey and right now the owners look like they're more serious about a CBA and a season than the players so that's where my support sits...right now.

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12-21-2012, 09:52 AM
  #766
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Originally Posted by neelynugs View Post
you mean like when the PA states that getting their contracts paid in full was the key point? oh wait, now it's the pension fund. no, sorry, that's not it - we really have to have a cap on escrow.
Or that they're really really committed to a 50/50 split of HRR.

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12-21-2012, 09:53 AM
  #767
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I decided to reverse my way of thinking about this.

I pretty much think now that irreparable damage has been done. At this point, I am going to sit back, and enjoy watching them crash and burn this thing into the ground. They will get exactly what they deserve.

Then, when the board of governors or whatever you want to call the head clowns finally come to the inevitable conclusion that you need hockey people to run a hockey league, not lawyers, and fire Bettman and his cronies and hire someone who actually has a passion for hockey as opposed to financial accumulation and who has at least a resemblance to a human personality (you know with a sense of humor, empathy, altruism and those other things long lost to the business community), then I will be back. There will be a sense of renewal for the league, there won't be teams in the desert anymore, and all will be merry. Same for the lemm...I mean players. How you can be head of a hockey players' union and never having played the game of hockey (at least to my knowledge) is beyond me.

Get rid of these idiots and give the sport back to hockey people. I'm sure there are plenty who could do it extremely well.

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12-21-2012, 09:53 AM
  #768
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedMenace View Post
This may have already been posted somewhere, but seriously:

http://www.ottawasun.com/2012/12/20/...ith-qmi-agency



The NHL needs to make up their collective mind.

First, Daly and Bettman say, “We’re not even close to a deal,” after the last round.

Now Daly, after no further negotiation from the last, “... find(s) it hard to believe—given what’s separating the two sides—that the NHL and NHLPA couldn’t get a deal in place if they could find a way back to the table.”

So which is it, Bill? Are the two sides miles apart, or so close that you can't understand why a deal wouldn't be able to get done?

No wonder everyone is confused.

EDIT: It appears parts of this article have been discussed, and I apologize if I missed anything regarding the point I was trying to make.
There's nothing conflicting in what he says - you're the one who mentions "So close" not Daly. Daly says "if they could find a way back to the table" which fits his miles apart approach.

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12-21-2012, 09:54 AM
  #769
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
I heard Daly on Sirius XM,the FAN590 and with Mark Spector this week. In one interview its take it or leave it. With Spector,Daly sort of indicated there was some room to move in the term limits and they are firm on the 10 year CBA. He stopped saying if the players disclaim interest then season is over. Spector asked him about asking the court to dissolve all of the SPCs and Daly said he didn't think it would get to that point. He told the Ottawa Sun the make whole can easily be put back on the table after saying two weeks ago and then leaking it the media that the $300M was gone but its not. Talk about sending mixed messages.
I actually agree with this. Not only is the communication dreadful between both sides, but they continue to posture and BS around.

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12-21-2012, 09:56 AM
  #770
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
I decided to reverse my way of thinking about this.

I pretty much think now that irreparable damage has been done. At this point, I am going to sit back, and enjoy watching them crash and burn this thing into the ground. They will get exactly what they deserve.

Then, when the board of governors or whatever you want to call the head clowns finally come to the inevitable conclusion that you need hockey people to run a hockey league, not lawyers, and fire Bettman and his cronies and hire someone who actually has a passion for hockey as opposed to financial accumulation and who has at least a resemblance to a human personality (you know with a sense of humor, empathy, altruism and those other things long lost to the business community), then I will be back. There will be a sense of renewal for the league, there won't be teams in the desert anymore, and all will be merry. Same for the lemm...I mean players. How you can be head of a hockey players' union and never having played the game of hockey (at least to my knowledge) is beyond me.

Get rid of these idiots and give the sport back to hockey people. I'm sure there are plenty who could do it extremely well.
Bettman has been in the league for 20 years, pretty sure that makes him a hockey guy.

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12-21-2012, 09:56 AM
  #771
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Originally Posted by RedMenace View Post
This may have already been posted somewhere, but seriously:

http://www.ottawasun.com/2012/12/20/...ith-qmi-agency



The NHL needs to make up their collective mind.

First, Daly and Bettman say, “We’re not even close to a deal,” after the last round.

Now Daly, after no further negotiation from the last, “... find(s) it hard to believe—given what’s separating the two sides—that the NHL and NHLPA couldn’t get a deal in place if they could find a way back to the table.”

So which is it, Bill? Are the two sides miles apart, or so close that you can't understand why a deal wouldn't be able to get done?

No wonder everyone is confused.

EDIT: It appears parts of this article have been discussed, and I apologize if I missed anything regarding the point I was trying to make.
What are you talking about?

Not being close and needing to find a way to get a deal done are not mutually exclusive.

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12-21-2012, 10:00 AM
  #772
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Originally Posted by NYRSinceBirth View Post
There's nothing conflicting in what he says - you're the one who mentions "So close" not Daly. Daly says "if they could find a way back to the table" which fits his miles apart approach.
Re-read the selected quote. Understand that "find(s) it hard to believe—given what’s separating the two sides—..." means they're close in terms of what they both want.

The phrase "... if they could find a way back to the table..." has nothing to do with their desires, but instead their willingness to negotiate off them and meet again to bridge any remaining gaps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
What are you talking about?

Not being close and needing to find a way to get a deal done are not mutually exclusive.
...

He says, in the quote that he "find(s) it hard to believe—given what’s separating the two sides—..."

That implies that there isn't a whole lot separating the two sides.


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12-21-2012, 10:02 AM
  #773
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Bettman has been in the league for 20 years, pretty sure that makes him a hockey guy.
He's not. Not even close actually. And he will be gone eventually. And I will rejoice that day.

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12-21-2012, 10:04 AM
  #774
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
He's not. Not even close actually. And he will be gone eventually. And I will rejoice that day.
What makes him not a hockey guy?

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12-21-2012, 10:07 AM
  #775
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Originally Posted by Honeycutt View Post
What makes him not a hockey guy?
Many things, too many to list imo, but they can be summed up with this.

He is unable to put the sport ahead of himself because he doesn't have the passion for hockey that one needs to do this. Same could be said about Fehr.

These two claim to be in it for the greater good. It's painfully transparent and obvious that they are definitely not.

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