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CBA / Lockout Discussion Thread (Update: player tested, owner approved)

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Old
12-18-2012, 06:26 PM
  #376
IdealisticSniper
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Originally Posted by Still All In View Post
no way man the players association is all wrong stupid idiots
I've asked what, three times now?

Contribute something, anything, to this conversation.

I've even asked a simple question I have yet to get an answer about. Tell me how the offer the league had on the table last week, is better than the offer they made to save the 82 game season.

It doesn't even have to be in essay format. Give me bullet points. Anything.

And agreeing with the guy you quoted isn't surprising as he brings next to nothing to just about ANY thread he posts in.

So, ill wait. Again.

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12-18-2012, 07:02 PM
  #377
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Ron Hainsey wants to try the early Dec. group that was sans Bettman and Fehr again, but with Bettman and Fehr.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/87...owners-meeting

misleading possible headline: Winnipeg's Hainsey wants Vinik back in talks.

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12-18-2012, 07:26 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
I've asked what, three times now?

Contribute something, anything, to this conversation.

I've even asked a simple question I have yet to get an answer about. Tell me how the offer the league had on the table last week, is better than the offer they made to save the 82 game season.

It doesn't even have to be in essay format. Give me bullet points. Anything.

And agreeing with the guy you quoted isn't surprising as he brings next to nothing to just about ANY thread he posts in.

So, ill wait. Again.
That insinuates you wish to actually understand an alternate viewpoint that someone presents to you, which you don't - your sole focus (which you have continued to show here as well as trade threads) is to somehow show everyone that you think you're the smartest kid in the room.

A few have already debunked your claim that the deals continue to get worse and worse (they don't, increases in escrow payments have happened in proposals, percentages of HRR have changed closer to 50/50 or AT 50/50 which isn't a surprise really) and you're completely forgetting that some things are in the media for a reason.

Say what you will about the players, educational background and all... I have this to ask you. If you truly believe they're idiots and don't have a clue as to what they're doing, how can you say the owners are angels in all of this? Keep in mind these are some of the same owners that created the current system, salary cap and all, that couldn't forsee or plan for an 8 year stretch of growth... a growth that occurred, mind you, during a time that most of North America was in a giant financial crisis. Could you imagine how much wider the gap between the players and owners would be if the economy wasn't slumping?!?! We could have been looking at nearly 65% going to the players. They signed a ten year TV deal without any real planning as far as technology goes, they've hopped network to network over the last 15 years, and we somehow think these same eight guys are going to get things right this time?

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12-18-2012, 07:32 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by Still All In View Post
That insinuates you wish to actually understand an alternate viewpoint that someone presents to you, which you don't - your sole focus (which you have continued to show here as well as trade threads) is to somehow show everyone that you think you're the smartest kid in the room.

A few have already debunked your claim that the deals continue to get worse and worse (they don't, increases in escrow payments have happened in proposals, percentages of HRR have changed closer to 50/50 or AT 50/50 which isn't a surprise really) and you're completely forgetting that some things are in the media for a reason.

Say what you will about the players, educational background and all... I have this to ask you. If you truly believe they're idiots and don't have a clue as to what they're doing, how can you say the owners are angels in all of this? Keep in mind these are some of the same owners that created the current system, salary cap and all, that couldn't forsee or plan for an 8 year stretch of growth... a growth that occurred, mind you, during a time that most of North America was in a giant financial crisis. Could you imagine how much wider the gap between the players and owners would be if the economy wasn't slumping?!?! We could have been looking at nearly 65% going to the players. They signed a ten year TV deal without any real planning as far as technology goes, they've hopped network to network over the last 15 years, and we somehow think these same eight guys are going to get things right this time?
but imagine how long that lockout would be.

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12-18-2012, 08:12 PM
  #380
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I think the hardest part for me is that it seems they had no intentions ever of starting the season on time. That hurts... as a fan, as a sponsor, as an employee, as a season ticket holder, etc.

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12-19-2012, 03:54 AM
  #381
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Every day after waking up I'm checking the news if there was something new about the CBA .. and getting the same damn dissappointing information every day : none!

I was so happy last year after getting the chance to watch the NHL via gamecenter live and then this crap. Hopefully we will have a season in 13/14.

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12-19-2012, 07:31 AM
  #382
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Originally Posted by Still All In View Post
I think the hardest part for me is that it seems they had no intentions ever of starting the season on time. That hurts... as a fan, as a sponsor, as an employee, as a season ticket holder, etc.
The fact that the Lightning kept "Be The Thunder" as their slogan was telling, IMO.

BTT wasn't nearly as popular as All In was (on here, at least) and they changed that.

Or, they were waiting for the fans to come up with something.

Should 13-14 be 'Back In (It)'? I still like 'Stand Together'.



I agree with their #1, and my favorite part about the #2 clip is the nod Gary gives the guy. That and the fact that I don't think I've ever seen Bettman wear anything but dark pants.

The shot I like is of Chipman (IIRC) and Vinik getting off the escalator. A lot of times, people just step off it and go back to their normal speed. Vinik walks off it and gets that little boost when you do it right.

Like a boss.


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12-19-2012, 03:29 PM
  #383
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Originally Posted by Felonious Python View Post
The fact that the Lightning kept "Be The Thunder" as their slogan was telling, IMO.

BTT wasn't nearly as popular as All In was (on here, at least) and they changed that.

Or, they were waiting for the fans to come up with something.

Should 13-14 be 'Back In (It)'? I still like 'Stand Together'.
I like, "We don't care anymore."

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12-19-2012, 04:03 PM
  #384
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I like, "We don't care anymore."
"You're still here?"

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12-19-2012, 07:14 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by Still All In View Post
That insinuates you wish to actually understand an alternate viewpoint that someone presents to you, which you don't - your sole focus (which you have continued to show here as well as trade threads) is to somehow show everyone that you think you're the smartest kid in the room.
Firstly, I love other viewpoints. I enjoy reading viewpoints other then my own. I also enjoy discussing and debating things. This is a message board, thats what its for. However when things are posted that are false information, or things are said in a demeaning way, I have no problem speaking my mind about it. Again, its a message board. Im not the smartest kid in the room, I dont pretend to be that person. I just present my opinions and people can take from it what they choose too. You choose to see me a certain way and thats your prerogative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Still All In View Post
A few have already debunked your claim that the deals continue to get worse and worse (they don't, increases in escrow payments have happened in proposals, percentages of HRR have changed closer to 50/50 or AT 50/50 which isn't a surprise really) and you're completely forgetting that some things are in the media for a reason.
No. Actually not one person has shown me how the offers arent worse. I on the other hand have present numerous cases as to why they are. Again, I wasnt speaking about the original offer that included 43%. I was speaking of the offer presented to save the 82 game season. And no offer since then has been as good for the players financially, and when you compare their financial loss to the minimal things gained in contractual rights and luxuries over the timeline of offers, they have lost much more than they have gained.

Of course things are in the media for a reason. That doesnt change much if you are able to sort the BS from both sides. Which, to be honest is much easier to do with the NHLPA side of things.

The NHLPA has presented 5 proposals that all contained some form of delinkage. Which was NEVER going to fly. They then sat back and basically let the NHL negotiate against themselves. Pretty smart tactic to a point, but at some point you have to bring something to the table. And the NHLPA has still, yet to do that. Currently they are fighting for a couple years of contract limits and a couple years added to the CBA. It has been proven that the contract year limits do absolutely nothing to the amount the players can get paid. All it does is stop teams from circumventing the cap with extra years on the end of their contracts. This is an important thing to even the playing field for small market teams, and to help stabilize the NHL that much more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Still All In View Post
Say what you will about the players, educational background and all... I have this to ask you. If you truly believe they're idiots and don't have a clue as to what they're doing, how can you say the owners are angels in all of this? Keep in mind these are some of the same owners that created the current system, salary cap and all, that couldn't forsee or plan for an 8 year stretch of growth... a growth that occurred, mind you, during a time that most of North America was in a giant financial crisis. Could you imagine how much wider the gap between the players and owners would be if the economy wasn't slumping?!?! We could have been looking at nearly 65% going to the players. They signed a ten year TV deal without any real planning as far as technology goes, they've hopped network to network over the last 15 years, and we somehow think these same eight guys are going to get things right this time?
Listen, I honestly dont think the players are actual idiots. I think that for the most part, for one reason or another, the NHLPA as a group, is acting like an idiot. There is a difference there.

And dont get me wrong. Both the players and the owners are at fault here. No doubt about that. However at this very point in time, its on the players to finish this thing. They are fighting for no reason anymore. They have already lost nearly a third more money than they were fighting for to begin with. They are losing their careers, they are losing fans. The owners are losing a lot as well, but they have offered things such as make whole that they didnt need to offer. They have backed off going after UFA years and ELC years. Backed off salary arbitration and agreed to provide more pension, better luxuries for players like single rooms on the road, more trips for parents etc. The players need to realize they play a game for millions and every other sport is at 50/50 right now. There is no reason for the sport that makes the least amount of revenue shouldnt be there as well. But they refuse to go to 50/50 right away (even with the make whole money), or in some proposals, at all. They are simply being greedy at this point and not trying to help the stability of the league.

Obviously the owners didnt get it perfect the last time, but why is it unfair to not let them try and fix things now that they have a chance to?

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12-19-2012, 08:34 PM
  #386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
Firstly, I love other viewpoints. I enjoy reading viewpoints other then my own. I also enjoy discussing and debating things. This is a message board, thats what its for. However when things are posted that are false information, or things are said in a demeaning way, I have no problem speaking my mind about it. Again, its a message board. Im not the smartest kid in the room, I dont pretend to be that person. I just present my opinions and people can take from it what they choose too. You choose to see me a certain way and thats your prerogative.
But a few people have pointed things out to you and you've shrugged them off, quite aggressively I might add.

Quote:
No. Actually not one person has shown me how the offers arent worse. I on the other hand have present numerous cases as to why they are. Again, I wasnt speaking about the original offer that included 43%. I was speaking of the offer presented to save the 82 game season. And no offer since then has been as good for the players financially, and when you compare their financial loss to the minimal things gained in contractual rights and luxuries over the timeline of offers, they have lost much more than they have gained.
See, now you've moved the goalposts on me here. Are we talking only on an 82 game season, because thats not a fair point to use as the owners at this point have made it pretty clear they had no intentions of starting the season on time or having an 82 game year. Furthermore, you're looking at the situation as if the players had something to gain the whole time and that was never the case - the idea from the start was that players had to split revenue with other owners like the NFL and NBA, the players knew it and had actually mentioned it quite a few times early on. What changed with all of that was the fact that the owners all of a sudden told them they wanted 25% of salaries back and the whole demeanor of negotiations changed (for the second time, the first being the ridiculous initial NHL offer). Now it has become a pull-pull situation, the owners keep coming up with some ridiculous offers chained to more reasonable offers (see: contractual rights tied to "make whole").

Quote:
Of course things are in the media for a reason. That doesnt change much if you are able to sort the BS from both sides. Which, to be honest is much easier to do with the NHLPA side of things.
Ehh, this is a wash.

Quote:
The NHLPA has presented 5 proposals that all contained some form of delinkage. Which was NEVER going to fly. They then sat back and basically let the NHL negotiate against themselves. Pretty smart tactic to a point, but at some point you have to bring something to the table. And the NHLPA has still, yet to do that. Currently they are fighting for a couple years of contract limits and a couple years added to the CBA. It has been proven that the contract year limits do absolutely nothing to the amount the players can get paid. All it does is stop teams from circumventing the cap with extra years on the end of their contracts. This is an important thing to even the playing field for small market teams, and to help stabilize the NHL that much more.
This has been said, but is not entirely true. A good example of this was the Wednesday where they thought they had everything solved and then a few things happened with the ridiculous voicemail rejecting the offer after so much progress. There were certain things that have been left out of both sides press conferences, and its pretty ****ing bizarre to be honest.



Quote:
Listen, I honestly dont think the players are actual idiots. I think that for the most part, for one reason or another, the NHLPA as a group, is acting like an idiot. There is a difference there.
You should, a lot of them are rich man-children. They're not always bright.

Quote:
And dont get me wrong. Both the players and the owners are at fault here. No doubt about that. However at this very point in time, its on the players to finish this thing. They are fighting for no reason anymore. They have already lost nearly a third more money than they were fighting for to begin with. They are losing their careers, they are losing fans. The owners are losing a lot as well, but they have offered things such as make whole that they didnt need to offer. They have backed off going after UFA years and ELC years. Backed off salary arbitration and agreed to provide more pension, better luxuries for players like single rooms on the road, more trips for parents etc. The players need to realize they play a game for millions and every other sport is at 50/50 right now. There is no reason for the sport that makes the least amount of revenue shouldnt be there as well. But they refuse to go to 50/50 right away (even with the make whole money), or in some proposals, at all. They are simply being greedy at this point and not trying to help the stability of the league.

Obviously the owners didnt get it perfect the last time, but why is it unfair to not let them try and fix things now that they have a chance to?
This completely ignores revenue sharing structure and how its currently damaging to the league. There is a huge problem with wealth distribution currently and what is alarming is that the league is fighting for so many things including trying to take away player contracting rights yet seemingly doing little to nothing about revenue sharing. They want to add more money to the pot, but want the players to eat all of the costs, and not change the how, why, and where it is distributed.

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12-20-2012, 03:06 AM
  #387
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Originally Posted by Still All In View Post

This completely ignores revenue sharing structure and how its currently damaging to the league. There is a huge problem with wealth distribution currently and what is alarming is that the league is fighting for so many things including trying to take away player contracting rights yet seemingly doing little to nothing about revenue sharing. They want to add more money to the pot, but want the players to eat all of the costs, and not change the how, why, and where it is distributed.
This is something I agree with. Big time.

There was just talk about it at the BOH. Other leagues are putting much more money in to RS, even based on percentages of total revenue generated. Seems like owners want to just take money from players to help the bottom teams; but aren't really willing to increase RS that much, which would definitely help the bottom teams.

Because we could be in similar situation after the next CBA is up; bottom teams still struggle badly and we get another lockout.

NHL's 200 mil. RS (?) of 3.3 billion isn't enough imo. Players wanted it to 240 mil. but I think it should be even higher, if that's what it takes.

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12-20-2012, 06:58 AM
  #388
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12-20-2012, 08:33 AM
  #389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
Firstly, I love other viewpoints. I enjoy reading viewpoints other then my own. I also enjoy discussing and debating things. This is a message board, thats what its for. However when things are posted that are false information, or things are said in a demeaning way, I have no problem speaking my mind about it. Again, its a message board. Im not the smartest kid in the room, I dont pretend to be that person. I just present my opinions and people can take from it what they choose too. You choose to see me a certain way and thats your prerogative.
This is completely true, and yes, I am a jackass on here, but I don't want this discussion to resort to ad hominems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
Of course things are in the media for a reason. That doesnt change much if you are able to sort the BS from both sides. Which, to be honest is much easier to do with the NHLPA side of things.
That's just, like, your opinion, man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
I honestly dont think the players are actual idiots. I think that for the most part, for one reason or another, the NHLPA as a group, is acting like an idiot. There is a difference there.
"A person is smart. People are dumb" - Kay, "Men In Black" 1997

Quote:
Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
And dont get me wrong. Both the players and the owners are at fault here. No doubt about that. However at this very point in time, its on the players to finish this thing. They are fighting for no reason anymore. They have already lost nearly a third more money than they were fighting for to begin with. They are losing their careers, they are losing fans. The owners are losing a lot as well, but they have offered things such as make whole that they didnt need to offer. They have backed off going after UFA years and ELC years. Backed off salary arbitration and agreed to provide more pension, better luxuries for players like single rooms on the road, more trips for parents etc. The players need to realize they play a game for millions and every other sport is at 50/50 right now. There is no reason for the sport that makes the least amount of revenue shouldnt be there as well. But they refuse to go to 50/50 right away (even with the make whole money), or in some proposals, at all. They are simply being greedy at this point and not trying to help the stability of the league.

Obviously the owners didnt get it perfect the last time, but why is it unfair to not let them try and fix things now that they have a chance to?
This is really all we wanted to hear you say, what I disagree with is the last part. Yes, they should get a chance to fix it. But they're not. The main problem in the NHL is revenue sharing, like that dude said, and they're not addressing it. They're looking to take more from the players, without fixing the root cause of the problem.

http://business.time.com/2012/12/19/...e-nhl-lockout/

Quote:
Originally Posted by TIME
Don’t believe them[The owners], not for a minute. First, as I’ve written about before, sports team accounting is misleading at best, given that club owners can claim to be losing money when a) the losses are on paper only; b) there are tax benefits from whatever losses happen to be real; and c) the value of their teams continue to rise.
I think we're all aware of creative business accounting practices. You never want A) your employees B) the government or C) your competition to know you're making a large profit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TIME
the average value for the bottom five teams today ($145 million) is nonetheless higher than the price tag for fully half the league’s team in 2002. Few teams have struggled financially in the past decade as much as the Coyotes, for example, and yet their valuation over the past decade has increased 69% ($79 million to $134 million).

Businesses don’t increase in value if the underlying model isn’t sound.

now, i dont have any fancy book learnin...


Quote:
Originally Posted by TIME
It’s not a coincidence that the most successful North American sports league also has the most rational approach to revenue sharing. Some 60% of the NFL’s $11 billion revenue pie is shared, which is why tiny Green Bay, Wisconsin can compete with big bad New York or Chicago. The other two Big Three leagues aren’t quite as egalitarian but have improved their models in recent years: MLB teams share nearly a third of local TV revenue, while NBA teams reportedly approach a 50% total revenue share (give or take a few complex calculations).


The NHL, meanwhile, has been sharing 4.5% of its $3.3 billion revenue (with not much more on the table in current talks.)

4.5%?


Quote:
Originally Posted by TIME
So greed is the issue, alright: owners’ greed, specifically owners in larger markets who refuse to recognize that sports leagues are in many ways socialist enterprises, in which the needs of the many fat cats should outweigh the few obese cats. At least if the obese cats want to keep purring.


Again: NHL owners with struggling teams, to the extent that they are actually struggling, are largely in the shape they’re in because of their fellow owners, not because of NHL players.

BLAME CANADA


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12-20-2012, 09:52 AM
  #390
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Bill Daly thinks there will still be a 2012-13 NHL season:
Quote:
When asked: "Yes or no, do we have a season?", his answer was clear.

"Yes," said Daly.
Seriously though, did anyone expect him to say "no"?
Quote:
"I tend to be more optimistic than some of the people I work with," Daly said. "The bottom line is – [and] my view on this has been the same from the start – there's no reason we shouldn't be playing hockey."

"I'd like to think that at the end of the day that reason will prevail," he added, "and if reason prevails, we'll play a hockey season this year."
Fehr's reaction (no surprises):
Quote:
"That's good news, I'm glad to hear that," Fehr told reporters. "I certainly hope he's right. That's the players' goal, that's what we want to try and do."

"Hopefully, we'll get back together and negotiate out the remaining issues as soon as possible."

Fehr indicated that he's interested in having a similar owner-player dynamic as when the sides met two weeks ago, but unlike last time, with himself included in the discussions.
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=411971


Last edited by LightningStrikes: 12-20-2012 at 09:59 AM.
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12-20-2012, 10:56 AM
  #391
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This is really all we wanted to hear you say, what I disagree with is the last part. Yes, they should get a chance to fix it. But they're not. The main problem in the NHL is revenue sharing, like Bryan said, and they're not addressing it. They're looking to take more from the players, without fixing the root cause of the problem.
Uneven fan support?

and the Daly comment was setup in a way that he could not answer 'I don't know'. It had to be a straight yes or no and he unsurprisingly said yes.


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12-20-2012, 11:22 AM
  #392
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Just get it done. Feel like they have been holdin it up like this purposely. If they wanted to get it done they would have by now. These are grown men. Who cares if one side said something the other didnt like. Sounds like some guys are little emotional. Or they are just letting this thing drag along purposely. Unfortunately the fans and players have to wait.

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12-20-2012, 02:45 PM
  #393
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Am I the only one who has become completely and utterly indifferent and numb to all this? Before it actually bothered me. Now I don't feel a damn thing. I would love to see the game back (NHL), but I am perfectly fine watching AHL, WHL, KHL, and IIHF soon. The NHL/PA is not losing fans because people are angry or vindictive. They are losing fans because people are just not giving a **** any more. Am I the only one here who thinks like that now?

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12-20-2012, 03:21 PM
  #394
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Am I the only one who has become completely and utterly indifferent and numb to all this? Before it actually bothered me. Now I don't feel a damn thing. I would love to see the game back (NHL), but I am perfectly fine watching AHL, WHL, KHL, and IIHF soon. The NHL/PA is not losing fans because people are angry or vindictive. They are losing fans because people are just not giving a **** any more. Am I the only one here who thinks like that now?
No. But fortunately, you and I have suitable alternatives.

The last lockout, the Seals had also suspended operations and I was left with neither the NHL, nor local pro. NHL Network wasn't available, at least in my area, if they had even started at all. It's state run tv, but it's better than nothing.

More importantly, web streaming hadn't come along like it has now so watching games from European leagues was almost entirely out of the picture. This was before YouTube existed, remember, so online video was a real luxury at the time.

And also there wasn't any existing alternative leagues that planned to take advantage of the situation last lockout, and fill part of the void, like the KHL did this time. Good on them.


Last edited by Felonious Python: 12-20-2012 at 03:26 PM.
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12-20-2012, 06:33 PM
  #395
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Games cancelled through Jan. 14,
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=412031
The next one will be the season.

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12-20-2012, 08:32 PM
  #396
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Am I the only one who has become completely and utterly indifferent and numb to all this? Before it actually bothered me. Now I don't feel a damn thing. I would love to see the game back (NHL), but I am perfectly fine watching AHL, WHL, KHL, and IIHF soon. The NHL/PA is not losing fans because people are angry or vindictive. They are losing fans because people are just not giving a **** any more. Am I the only one here who thinks like that now?
Nope.

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12-20-2012, 09:52 PM
  #397
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Originally Posted by stryfe604 View Post
Am I the only one who has become completely and utterly indifferent and numb to all this? Before it actually bothered me. Now I don't feel a damn thing. I would love to see the game back (NHL), but I am perfectly fine watching AHL, WHL, KHL, and IIHF soon. The NHL/PA is not losing fans because people are angry or vindictive. They are losing fans because people are just not giving a **** any more. Am I the only one here who thinks like that now?
I feel a little indifferent right now. I don't have the bolts and the NHL, but I still have hockey. Syracuse games have been great to watch, the world juniors are going to be awesome, and now that I'm home for winter break I plan on going to the rink a couple times so, I'm getting by just fine.

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12-21-2012, 08:36 AM
  #398
RussianGuyovich
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stryfe604 View Post
Am I the only one who has become completely and utterly indifferent and numb to all this? Before it actually bothered me. Now I don't feel a damn thing. I would love to see the game back (NHL), but I am perfectly fine watching AHL, WHL, KHL, and IIHF soon. The NHL/PA is not losing fans because people are angry or vindictive. They are losing fans because people are just not giving a **** any more. Am I the only one here who thinks like that now?
it's all just a kabuki theatre and tiresome, so no, no you're not the only one who just doesn't care.

i resigned myself to there not being a season this year 5 minutes after the stanley cup was handed out.

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12-21-2012, 09:12 AM
  #399
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Originally Posted by RussianGuyovich View Post

http://business.time.com/2012/12/19/...e-nhl-lockout/

I think we're all aware of creative business accounting practices. You never want A) your employees B) the government or C) your competition to know you're making a large profit.
As much as I agree with the premise that the NHL needs far more revenue sharing and believe the owners have long used creative accounting to serve their interests, nobody that's in a position to provide commentary has access to any team's books. Not me, not you, not Gary Belsky and not even Forbes. Is it possible Forbes' estimates of franchise values are somewhat accurate? Sure, but it is also plausible they are woefully off-base and also possible they are accurate or inaccurate on a team-by-team basis. I guess I'm just tired of seeing them trotted out as if they, in any sense, definitive. They deserve a healthy amount of skepticism as fairly rudimentary, even if educated, guesswork, and shouldn't be proffered as the primary evidence of any journalist's hit piece, because that is what this article was, on the league.

Quote:
Businesses don’t increase in value if the underlying model isn’t sound.
Case in point. Belsky is willing to spout what is supposed to pass as an economic truth without a shred of concern about the validity of the Forbes valuations. I've got one for ya, Gary: businesses might increase in value with an underlying model that isn't sound if a third-party, with no means of verifying the accuracy of their projections, claims they do.


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12-21-2012, 09:53 AM
  #400
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Originally Posted by nhljohnson View Post
As much as I agree with the premise that the NHL needs far more revenue sharing and believe the owners have long used creative accounting to serve their interests, nobody that's in a position to provide commentary has access to any team's books. Not me, not you, not Gary Belsky and not even Forbes. Is it possible Forbes' estimates of franchise values are somewhat accurate? Sure, but it is also plausible they are woefully off-base and also possible they are accurate or inaccurate on a team-by-team basis. I guess I'm just tired of seeing them trotted out as if they, in any sense, definitive. They deserve a healthy amount of skepticism as fairly rudimentary, even if educated, guesswork, and shouldn't be proffered as the primary evidence of any journalist's hit piece, because that is what this article was, on the league.

Case in point. Belsky is willing to spout what is supposed to pass as an economic truth without a shred of concern about the validity of the Forbes valuations. I've got one for ya, Gary: businesses might increase in value with an underlying model that isn't sound if a third-party, with no means of verifying the accuracy of their projections, claims they do.
Yes, please don't take my refutation, and consequently, my posting of that article to mean that I stand behind Forbe's numbers for the NHL. My position remains firmly in the camp of "we really don't know anything" which means it's silly to debate sides.

Although I think you'd find this blog interesting:

http://www.mc79hockey.com/?p=4784

As it's in the same vein as what you are proclaiming. some excerpts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler Dellow
I stumbled across a paper a few years ago written by a Professor Buser, who was given access to the audited books of the Columbus Blue Jackets – I wrote about it at the time. I’ve summarized his info, as well as that of Forbes, in the table at left. The takeaway is this: four of the six years, Forbes was 9.5% out or more and in every year, they overestimated Columbus’ revenue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler Dellow
In 2006-07, the Oilers paid $2.7MM into revenue sharing. Cal Nichols was telling journalists in Nashville that Nashville could work: “It worked for us. The market size is very similar, and we went from being almost at the bottom of the league in revenue to seventh-best.” According to Forbes, the Oilers were 18th in the NHL in revenue in 2006-07. Someone is wrong: either the guy with access to the Oilers books or the guys with a model. I know where my money is. It’s worth nothing as well that the Canadian dollar averaged about 88 cents for the 2006-07 season, applying the NHL’s method of calculation. The Oilers were seventh in revenue with an 88 cent dollar.

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