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Old
12-19-2012, 03:22 PM
  #151
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Gretzky had teammates who had his back and made sure he was protected. We have our Gretz in RNH and need Gagner to be a Semenko. Your Gretz analogy would be valid if Gagner was the go to forward on this team.

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12-19-2012, 04:05 PM
  #152
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I rather have a bigger body on our 2nd line. Travis Zajac or Luke Adam would be great.

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12-19-2012, 04:17 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
Gretzky had teammates who had his back and made sure he was protected. We have our Gretz in RNH and need Gagner to be a Semenko. Your Gretz analogy would be valid if Gagner was the go to forward on this team.
Semenko wasn't a 2nd line center so I'm not sure what you mean by that, but someone else mentioned Lucic and he'd be a nice player to have on RNH's wing.

We'd still need a #2C tho.

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12-19-2012, 04:30 PM
  #154
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Semenko wasn't a 2nd line center so I'm not sure what you mean by that, but someone else mentioned Lucic and he'd be a nice player to have on RNH's wing.

We'd still need a #2C tho.
My point was that we have plenty of skill in top talents like yak, ebs, hall, Hemsky and nuge. The others should be guys like Semenko to protect this talent. Guys like pajjarvi and Gagner are great if they have 2 bigger guys on their line

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12-19-2012, 04:39 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post
Kesler got 23 points on a team that had Sedin, Morrison and Linden also playing at center for the full 82 game season. Are you sure that Kesler just played "a top checking role with scrubs" or are you just talking out of your ass again? Everyone else in the hockey world knows that once again you're flat out wrong, you'd be best off to just avoid answering this.

You acted as though I sad Gagner > Kesler and to you it was some kind of a joke. Truth is, Gagner was better at 21 & 22 than Kesler was so your joke wasn't funny.

Our failure to communicate is coming from the fact that you just don't understand the limitations of direct comparisons.

When people are citing Gagner's lack of size as evidence that he can't be a good #2 center and the names of Gretzky et al are brought up, it's not an example of me saying "Gagner is better than Gretzky because he's bigger", it just means that centers don't have to top 6'2 and 210 lbs to be effective. IE, Gagner can still be an effective #2 center at 5'10 191 lbs. That's where the comparison ends for a rational, intelligent human. The point made about Gagner's size was moot.

People tried to mitigate the damage done to the size argument by acting as though the other small centers made up for their size with speed that Gagner doesn't possess.

You think that Gretzky's lack of size was overcome by his above average speed, wrong again. Gretzky had an uncanny level of anticipation, he was very deceptive and agile, he was a great passer forehand and backhand, he had great decision making skills with the puck, a knack for seeing and getting the puck to people in the open, and he was a master of making the very most of what time and space he had with the puck... and he had average speed. With a pedestrian understanding of the game you might want to just attribute his success to him being fast, go ahead and have your opinion. I watched him play from the time he came into the nhl and I think my scouting report >>>>>>>> yours.
Gretzky was 6'0" and 185lbs which would have made him about average in size relative to his peers. In fact he was about the same size as Dave Lumley. He was also much faster than you suggest. Gagner is more physical, but Gretzky seldom lost a puck battle. But in the end this is neither here nor there because Gretzky had absolutely incredible skill, far more so than Gagner.

The point is not that because of his size and skating Gagner cannot be an effective #2C. It is that many of us feel that the total package is not what it should be to be the #2C on this team, given the others in the top six who would seem to be more destined to be part of the core. Clearly some disagree, but using Gretzky as a comparative does nothing to help your argument.

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12-19-2012, 06:09 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
Gretzky was 6'0" and 185lbs which would have made him about average in size relative to his peers. In fact he was about the same size as Dave Lumley. He was also much faster than you suggest. Gagner is more physical, but Gretzky seldom lost a puck battle. But in the end this is neither here nor there because Gretzky had absolutely incredible skill, far more so than Gagner.

The point is not that because of his size and skating Gagner cannot be an effective #2C. It is that many of us feel that the total package is not what it should be to be the #2C on this team, given the others in the top six who would seem to be more destined to be part of the core. Clearly some disagree, but using Gretzky as a comparative does nothing to help your argument.
"The total package" - you need to get the idea of "big center" out of your head and concentrate on "good center".

Gretzky as a comp is helping my argument quite a bit - he's the greatest player in the history of the game and he was too small to fit your idea of what a perfect 2nd line center should be. FYI Gretzky wasn't even 180 lbs and you're overestimating his speed.

Here's another comp for you, Adam Oates was 24 when he got 47 points in 76 games. That was in the highest scoring period of the modern nhl and Oates wasn't a speedster either. He was also almost exactly the same size as Gagner.

As far as what the Oilers need is concerned, they need a good 2nd line center more than they need 3 rw's (Yak, Eberle, Hemsky) for the top two lines. When you're thinking about who's destined to be part of the core you might want to focus more on whose skillset is req'd here and whose is in overabundance.

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12-19-2012, 06:41 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post
"The total package" - you need to get the idea of "big center" out of your head and concentrate on "good center".

Gretzky as a comp is helping my argument quite a bit - he's the greatest player in the history of the game and he was too small to fit your idea of what a perfect 2nd line center should be. FYI Gretzky wasn't even 180 lbs and you're overestimating his speed.

Here's another comp for you, Adam Oates was 24 when he got 47 points in 76 games. That was in the highest scoring period of the modern nhl and Oates wasn't a speedster either. He was also almost exactly the same size as Gagner.

As far as what the Oilers need is concerned, they need a good 2nd line center more than they need 3 rw's (Yak, Eberle, Hemsky) for the top two lines. When you're thinking about who's destined to be part of the core you might want to focus more on whose skillset is req'd here and whose is in overabundance.
How is comparing Gretzky to Gagner helping your argument when the only "qualities" you have presented that they have in common are a lack of physicality and and in your mind a lack of speed. (By the way, I am not the guy ho claimed that Gretzky regularly got caught from behind by average skating defensemen. I think you would have a tough time finding many here to back you up on this one.)

I'm not fixated on size. Mike Richards is not that big a guy but he plays a style that I think would be great given the Oilers top 6. Adam Henrique is a young guy who may well never outscore Gagner consistently, but if the offer was a straight up deal I'd be 100% in favour.

For what it is worth I doubt we will see Hemsky in the Oilers lineup much longer. But if he is it will be because he has been able to modify his game to fit the kids. Yuo seem to want to modify the elite group to suit Gagner. This in my mind is not the way to go.

You aso seem to ignore the fact that the clock is ticking on Gagner given that he is approaching UFA status. So while it is possible that he will up his game, if he does not do it extremely soon the Oilers will be forced to decide on his fate based on what he has done so far. This goes a long way to negate the "he's only 23" argument.

I think Gagner would have more value in a trade than many because despite the fasct that I don't see him as a long term fit here, he does possess tangible skills and has done a fair bit relative to his age.

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12-19-2012, 07:17 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
How is comparing Gretzky to Gagner helping your argument when the only "qualities" you have presented that they have in common are a lack of physicality and and in your mind a lack of speed.
he's the greatest player in the history of the game and he was too small to fit your idea of what a perfect 2nd line center should be

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(By the way, I am not the guy ho claimed that Gretzky regularly got caught from behind by average skating defensemen. I think you would have a tough time finding many here to back you up on this one.)
I've heard play by play announcers say that Gretzky was fast, it's a common mistake.

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I'm not fixated on size. Mike Richards is not that big a guy but he plays a style that I think would be great given the Oilers top 6. Adam Henrique is a young guy who may well never outscore Gagner consistently, but if the offer was a straight up deal I'd be 100% in favour.
The Oilers missed the boat on Richards. He would have been an upgrade on Gagner but we don't have him.

Adam Henrique is a good player but he's a tough comp because Gagner has never had a linemate like Ilya Kovalchuk.I think he'd be a good player here but we don't have him.

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For what it is worth I doubt we will see Hemsky in the Oilers lineup much longer. But if he is it will be because he has been able to modify his game to fit the kids. Yuo seem to want to modify the elite group to suit Gagner. This in my mind is not the way to go.
How am I modifying the Oilers lineup to fit Gagner? He's the second best center we have, he scores at an above avg rate for a 2C, if he's not here the Oilers don't have a #2C in their lineup. He's young, he's cheap, he'll get better as our 1st overall picks approach the peaks of their careers. How does he "not fit".

If you think you need someone physical for that role, or a checker, we can agree to disagree. The Oilers will have one highly skilled winger on the 2nd line, we need a highly skilled center to go along with that player. It's easy as pie to add size or toughness on the lw. 2nd line centers don't grow on trees. The Oilers couldn't find one the whole time Doug Weight was here.
Quote:
You aso seem to ignore the fact that the clock is ticking on Gagner given that he is approaching UFA status. So while it is possible that he will up his game, if he does not do it extremely soon the Oilers will be forced to decide on his fate based on what he has done so far. This goes a long way to negate the "he's only 23" argument.
Approaching ufa status? Are we trading 23 yr olds now because of their proximity to ufa status? When are we trading Eberle? He'll be mighty expensive.

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I think Gagner would have more value in a trade than many because despite the fasct that I don't see him as a long term fit here, he does possess tangible skills and has done a fair bit relative to his age.
Gagner has trade value because he has shown that he can produce in this league. When he played with Eberle and Hall he had a stretch where he got 20 points in 12 games. Even if you take the 8 point game out that's still 12 in 12.

He needs consistency in his game and his defense needs to be a bit better but right now he's a 7/10 at the end of his 22 yr old season. His career numbers avg out to about 46 points per season, the avg age of his linemates is about 19, and the avg games played of his linemates is about 40. Adam Henrique's linemates avg 30 yrs, and 400 gp.

Sam Gagner will be a very good #2 center in this league, count on it.

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12-21-2012, 09:21 AM
  #159
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Sam Gagner will be a very good #2 center in this league, count on it.
here here. Not the perfect centre but a damn good one.

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12-21-2012, 09:52 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post

Gagner has trade value because he has shown that he can produce in this league. When he played with Eberle and Hall he had a stretch where he got 20 points in 12 games. Even if you take the 8 point game out that's still 12 in 12.

He needs consistency in his game and his defense needs to be a bit better but right now he's a 7/10 at the end of his 22 yr old season. His career numbers avg out to about 46 points per season, the avg age of his linemates is about 19, and the avg games played of his linemates is about 40. Adam Henrique's linemates avg 30 yrs, and 400 gp.

Sam Gagner will be a very good #2 center in this league, count on it.
He will be but just not with the Oilers..
Hall, RNH, Eberle, Hemsky is skill for next couple yrs. Last year each one had more hits than Gagner.. Add in Yakupov and need for a skilled C shifts into a big top 6 C.

Gagner with his skill would be a good top 6 C in the league but EDM needs someone like Hanzal instead to compliment the big 4 + Hemsky up front.

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12-21-2012, 11:19 AM
  #161
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In view of recent events and possible impending events in the league, NHLPA etc, and its impacts on all contracts I'm not convinced it makes much sense debating the minutiae of how much Gagner fits in with this lineup.

Also that even if we retain most of our drafted lineup as is guys like Hall, Yakupov, RNH may still be growing into form and be more physical than they presently are. Lets wait for these guys to fill out before saying we automatically need more size. I expect Gagner to get stronger still as well. I think he made a mistake in his training program over a year ago and from comments he worked more on getting bigger in the past offseason.

I think as well that the NHL goes through waves where different constitutions of teams matter. Size mattered a whole lot in the 90's, then it started to matter less for awhile as a crackdown on hooks, holds, etc started selecting for teams with skill and depth. Then its back to teams like Boston and LA grinding out SC's. Next thing you know they'll be a crackdown on infractions again and skill and size will again matter. Its something the NHL virtually HAS to look at. Can you have topteams and players in Pittsburgh and say Washington out of the running early every season? I sense the NHL needs to again allow a flow of game where the most skilled players can excel. Not just the most physical players.

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12-21-2012, 11:34 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
He will be but just not with the Oilers..
Hall, RNH, Eberle, Hemsky is skill for next couple yrs. Last year each one had more hits than Gagner.. Add in Yakupov and need for a skilled C shifts into a big top 6 C.

Gagner with his skill would be a good top 6 C in the league but EDM needs someone like Hanzal instead to compliment the big 4 + Hemsky up front.
What Edmonton needs and what Edmonton can get are two different things. Gagner will have to do for now.

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12-21-2012, 11:37 AM
  #163
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Comparing Gagner to Gretzky because of their lack of size is like comparing a '91 Toyota Tercel to a top-end Ferrari because they both have cup holders.

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12-21-2012, 11:50 AM
  #164
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What Edmonton needs and what Edmonton can get are two different things. Gagner will have to do for now.
yes he is fine for now but once we plan on becoming a playoffs team and do some damage once in it, we'll need some grit in top 6.

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12-21-2012, 12:05 PM
  #165
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What Edmonton needs and what Edmonton can get are two different things. Gagner will have to do for now.
And thats why Edmonton is Edmonton and teams like Philly are winning.

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12-21-2012, 12:20 PM
  #166
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Comparing Gagner to Gretzky because of their lack of size is like comparing a '91 Toyota Tercel to a top-end Ferrari because they both have cup holders.
But damn does that Toyota make a good cupholder!

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12-21-2012, 01:31 PM
  #167
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But damn does that Toyota make a good cupholder!
Those damn early 90's Toyota's were way too small and underpowered. And most of them didnt even have cup holders, you either crammed the bottle between the e-brake handle and the seat or held it in your crotch.

So needless to say this team doesnt need a Toyota. This is Oil Country we need a pickup.

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12-21-2012, 01:35 PM
  #168
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Comparing Gagner to Gretzky because of their lack of size is like comparing a '91 Toyota Tercel to a top-end Ferrari because they both have cup holders.
Insisting on grit in the top 6 no matter the skill level is like buying a car from the 40s because it gets the same gas mileage as a 2012 F-150.

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12-21-2012, 01:57 PM
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Those damn early 90's Toyota's were way too small and underpowered. And most of them didnt even have cup holders, you either crammed the bottle between the e-brake handle and the seat or held it in your crotch.

So needless to say this team doesnt need a Toyota. This is Oil Country we need a pickup.
By pickup I hope that you mean a diesel pickup

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12-21-2012, 02:12 PM
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Insisting on grit in the top 6 no matter the skill level is like buying a car from the 40s because it gets the same gas mileage as a 2012 F-150.
This where you are wrong.. If that was the case we would be rolling with VandeVelde or Lander as #2C ... If we are to contend we need someone as skilled + the grit in our top 6.

It is obvious that we have to go with what we have in Gagner... but I really hope we make a push for Getzlaf\Marleau etc to give us 2 solid lines.

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12-21-2012, 02:25 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
Comparing Gagner to Gretzky because of their lack of size is like comparing a '91 Toyota Tercel to a top-end Ferrari because they both have cup holders.
It's funny because some old Toyotas don't even have cupholders. Ferraris as well but for an entirely different reason.

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12-21-2012, 03:05 PM
  #172
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here here. Not the perfect centre but a damn good one.
i third this. One thing that often gets ignored in regard to Gagner is his ever improving physicality. He's never going to be David Backes but he's far from a wall flower. Last year Sam Gagner began regualarly outworking opponents and IMO was not getting pushed around a whole lot. This is an aspect that is only going to improve as he gets his old man strength.

It really seems to me many of Cogliano's weaknesses were largely projected on Gagner over the years, despite never being as weak or as poor in the faceoffs circle Gagner is always thought of in that vain. IMO having two young small centers made Gagner's weaknesses more prevelant and they then became overstated as if he was somehow as prone to being tossed around, outmucled on the backcheck, and losing faceoffs as Cogliano was. They were essentially paired together and judged as an item by many, people were frustrated by Cogliano and Gagner having the same weaknesses so people just started acting as if Gagners weaknesses were as flawed (and they aren't even close). The faceoff this is the most prevelant example, Gagner is a very respectable faceoff man for his age and even in comparision to all centers he's not an embarrasment. Yet he was almost always equated to Cogliano as they were both "awful" in the dot, despite Gagner being like 10% better. Cogliano got tossed around waaaaaay more than Gagner and is a fair bit smaller, yet they have nearly the exact same reputation in this regard. I really do think their has been a "Cogliano effect" on how some percive Gagner.

To those who feel Gagner's development has run it's course and he projects to be an average center imagine if the Canucks moved their top 2 centers at his age.

H.Sedin at 22: 39 points in 78 games (broke out at 25, a typical age for someone to hit his prime)
R.Kesler at 22: 16 points in 42 games (broke out at 24)
S.Gagner at 22: 47 points in 75 games

Tell me why we expect Gagner to have broken out by now when the President trophy winning Canucks two top centers where nowhere close to leading their team anywhere at his age. Why do we expect Gagner to be an outlier. I'm not saying Gagner will lead the league in scoring an win a Hart one day but he does look to be very much on the path to success, his own father didn't break out untill 24 iirc. Trust me the Canuck centers are far more of a typical example of player development than anything we are likely to see from the big 4 up front. So i say just chill out and enjoy the ride, Gagner is a big part of this team and an excellent young center. If it ain't broke don't fix it, especially if it's not just working but actually improving. Gagner at 5'11 on the 2nd line isn't going to hurt us because the Nuge is slender. If we're really that hurting for a big center get a guy who fits that mold for the 3rd line.

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12-21-2012, 03:36 PM
  #173
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Or how about Marc Savard? He was doing OK but not spectacular in Calgary, so they punted his butt to Atlanta when he was 25 for Ruslan Zainullin (who? Yeah - exactly).

The Flames have spent the last 10 years trying to find a C to play with Iginla. Meanwhile, Savard has gone on to put up over 500 points in 488 games including seasons of 97, 96, and 88 points and has IMO been one of the league's most underrated players of the last decade.

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12-21-2012, 03:42 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Hoogaar23 View Post
Or how about Marc Savard? He was doing OK but not spectacular in Calgary, so they punted his butt to Atlanta when he was 25 for Ruslan Zainullin (who? Yeah - exactly).

The Flames have spent the last 10 years trying to find a C to play with Iginla. Meanwhile, Savard has gone on to put up over 500 points in 488 games including seasons of 97, 96, and 88 points and has IMO been one of the league's most underrated players of the last decade.
I've been making the Savard comp. for a few years now. The only problem with it is Savard followed a different development path so it's tough to compare them directly. But stylistically and in terms of skillset Savard is a good comp. although i don't think Gagner will reach Savards peak level (although who the hell thought Savard would.lol).

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12-21-2012, 04:38 PM
  #175
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With Gagner, Smyth, Dubnyk and Eager playing for Canada at the Spengler Cup, someone should start a thread!

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