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The Luongo Thread - "Make it stop, make it stop!"

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Old
12-20-2012, 03:02 PM
  #401
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Anyone could see that the future was brighter in EDM. However, does that translate to wins. Shultz thinks yes... let's see if he was right.



Gillis should have guaranteed him a spot - it was the only way to make the choice even IMO. I know it's wrong. Some people would have hated that, but things could have always adjusted after the fact. At least Shultz would be here.
I can picture it now.
AV: 'hey, you're a rookie bud. If I say you're going to sit in the pressbox, you're going to sit in the pressbox. 10 points in 2 games? Too much offense and not enough d. Why did we let Rome go?'

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12-20-2012, 03:07 PM
  #402
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Chose money.
This isn't exactly wrong. Everyone could only offer him the same, but in two years when his contract is up, the Oilers have zero d men signed. The Canucks will have Bieksa, Garrison, Hamhuis all with no trade clauses. Probably Edler and maybe even Ballard. That doesn't leave much money left for another RFA.

His signing was not really based on this contract, but his next one.

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12-20-2012, 03:20 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Anyone could see that the future was brighter in EDM. However, does that translate to wins. Shultz thinks yes... let's see if he was right.



Gillis should have guaranteed him a spot - it was the only way to make the choice even IMO. I know it's wrong. Some people would have hated that, but things could have always adjusted after the fact. At least Shultz would be here.
I would have guaranteed him a spot in the meeting... I wouldn't actually leave a spot open for him though. Give Schultz a taste of his own medicine when it comes to lying.


Still don't think he is as good as the AHL points are saying.

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12-20-2012, 05:44 PM
  #404
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I wonder who Messier would have vouched for?

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12-20-2012, 08:24 PM
  #405
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Oh god no. I was interested in seeing how he would work but He was terrible the times I've watched him. His mobility is absolutely terrible.

This looks like a Wolves signing to me.
#7/8 dmen usually have major deficiencies. I actually think Gillis should sign a Rome type player (#6) when the inevitable injuries hit.

In that scenario Joslin could be kept in Chicago til playoff time.

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12-20-2012, 08:51 PM
  #406
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I wonder who Messier would have vouched for?
Lays.

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12-21-2012, 07:17 AM
  #407
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I am not suggesting that Franson is on the same level as Chara, but he can't skate either, Webers not too slick either, Pronger... not so hot. Chara in particular had all kinds of mobility and coordination issues when he first came to the NHL, I mean he was really really bad, people forget that, he didn't get going till he was 24-25 in Ottawa

Personally I think that Franson has some real upside, he has very good hockey sense and some offensive skills and that may help him, along with experience and training, to be a very, very good defenceman. You can't teach size.

The only question I would have is "Is he better than Alberts", if the answer is yes then I would be happy to have him

The only other player TO has that interests me is Kulemin

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12-21-2012, 09:26 AM
  #408
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I am not suggesting that Franson is on the same level as Chara, but he can't skate either, Webers not too slick either, Pronger... not so hot. Chara in particular had all kinds of mobility and coordination issues when he first came to the NHL, I mean he was really really bad, people forget that, he didn't get going till he was 24-25 in Ottawa

Personally I think that Franson has some real upside, he has very good hockey sense and some offensive skills and that may help him, along with experience and training, to be a very, very good defenceman. You can't teach size.

The only question I would have is "Is he better than Alberts", if the answer is yes then I would be happy to have him

The only other player TO has that interests me is Kulemin
I would never ever consider Luongo for Kulemin and Franson. That's a complete joke. Why would Kulemin interest you when you consider that he's not even better than Raymond, let alone Hansen, Higgins and Booth? Where do we play him? The 4th line??

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12-21-2012, 10:08 AM
  #409
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I would never ever consider Luongo for Kulemin and Franson. That's a complete joke. Why would Kulemin interest you when you consider that he's not even better than Raymond, let alone Hansen, Higgins and Booth? Where do we play him? The 4th line??
Shouldn't be a problem, i think TO is completely out of the picture at this point.

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12-21-2012, 10:22 AM
  #410
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Shouldn't be a problem, i think TO is completely out of the picture at this point.
I hope so. Would much rather explore better options or just keep Luongo.

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12-21-2012, 10:25 AM
  #411
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I hope so. Would much rather explore better options or just keep Luongo.
With the season (if at all) looking like no more than 48 games, you may not have a choice.

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12-21-2012, 10:43 AM
  #412
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With the season (if at all) looking like no more than 48 games, you may not have a choice.
One of the best options, in the event of a season is to retain Luongo until the trade deadline, whenever that occours. This is where the overpayments happen. As well, Luongo can re-establish himself and perhaps regain the starting job.

Schnieder is going to benefit, as well, from further mentoring, real compettition for starts and a solid back-up. All good.

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12-21-2012, 11:02 AM
  #413
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One of the best options, in the event of a season is to retain Luongo until the trade deadline, whenever that occours. This is where the overpayments happen. As well, Luongo can re-establish himself and perhaps regain the starting job.

Schnieder is going to benefit, as well, from further mentoring, real compettition for starts and a solid back-up. All good.
The thing with the trade deadline, the teams paying big are the ones who are loading up for a cup run....those teams usually are set in goal.

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12-21-2012, 11:35 AM
  #414
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The thing with the trade deadline, the teams paying big are the ones who are loading up for a cup run....those teams usually are set in goal.
San Jose, Washington, Philly, Chicago, Ottawa, Florida, Toronto, Edmonton and a few others I seem to be forgetting are all playoff teams, or in the case of Edmonton and Toronto, possible playoff teams without upgrading in net. I don't see all of them standing pat in net if we have even close to all of them in a play off position. The deadline may not be so fruitless.

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12-21-2012, 11:45 AM
  #415
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San Jose, Washington, Philly, Chicago, Ottawa, Florida, Toronto, Edmonton and a few others I seem to be forgetting are all playoff teams, or in the case of Edmonton and Toronto, possible playoff teams without upgrading in net. I don't see all of them standing pat in net if we have even close to all of them in a play off position. The deadline may not be so fruitless.
It's just my opinion, but we aren't talking about an add on for a cup run. Luongo is a major piece with a high price tag. I think if a team is seriously considering him, it would need to be for a full season. I think you can scratch Philly (Bryz) Wash (2 good young goalies) and Ottawa (very happy with their goalies) off of the list. FLA would be interested if the deal is soft and salary goes back. Edm may be interested...not sure how much but i think it would be a good fit. Chicago seems obvious, but with the divisional thing who knows. SJ....not sure what they'd be willing to give, but the fit is good.As for TO, i think Burke stands pat in a shortened season and waits for the offseason.

Again, a trade deadline deal for a guy with 9 years left....maybe, but unlikely.

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12-21-2012, 02:37 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
It's just my opinion, but we aren't talking about an add on for a cup run. Luongo is a major piece with a high price tag. I think if a team is seriously considering him, it would need to be for a full season. I think you can scratch Philly (Bryz) Wash (2 good young goalies) and Ottawa (very happy with their goalies) off of the list. FLA would be interested if the deal is soft and salary goes back. Edm may be interested...not sure how much but i think it would be a good fit. Chicago seems obvious, but with the divisional thing who knows. SJ....not sure what they'd be willing to give, but the fit is good.As for TO, i think Burke stands pat in a shortened season and waits for the offseason.

Again, a trade deadline deal for a guy with 9 years left....maybe, but unlikely.



First, I highly doubt Burke stands pat in a shortened season. He will make a move. Remains to be seen if it's Luongo though. The fact is, everyone in TO knows the score for an 82 game schedule. They compete, but they don't sustain. So a shortened season is great news for them. Burke knows TO has the offense to stay in the hunt.



However, he doesn't know if he can trust Reimer. That will be there until he actually backstops them to the playoffs. So if you were Burke, and you have a favourable situation like a shortened season in front of you, are you really going to have faith that Reimer doesn't again foil your plans? Or are you going to remove that uncertainty out of the equation if you can? I think Burke goes out and finds a solution.



Burke won't get an offseason to do anything if he misses again.






As an aside: Philly is absolutely a possibility if Bryz _continues_ to do what he has done. I'm not even sure how that can be debated.

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12-21-2012, 03:01 PM
  #417
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First, I highly doubt Burke stands pat in a shortened season. He will make a move. Remains to be seen if it's Luongo though. The fact is, everyone in TO knows the score for an 82 game schedule. They compete, but they don't sustain. So a shortened season is great news for them. Burke knows TO has the offense to stay in the hunt.



However, he doesn't know if he can trust Reimer. That will be there until he actually backstops them to the playoffs. So if you were Burke, and you have a favourable situation like a shortened season in front of you, are you really going to have faith that Reimer doesn't again foil your plans? Or are you going to remove that uncertainty out of the equation if you can? I think Burke goes out and finds a solution.



Burke won't get an offseason to do anything if he misses again.






As an aside: Philly is absolutely a possibility if Bryz _continues_ to do what he has done. I'm not even sure how that can be debated.
So you figure they are going to tie up 13 million in goalies? Or are you taking Bryz back?

As far as a shortened season being a plus for the Leafs....you are talking about a team that went on a 17 game losing streak last year for more reasons than just goaltending. Unless you can gurantee (which nobody can) that it doesn't happen again, then i'll forgo the optimism.

As far as Burke being fired...i'm willing to bet he gets an extension no matter what.

I'll agree with one thing, if Burke can get Luongo at a price he feels works...he will. If not, you can be damn sure he'll run with Reimer.

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12-21-2012, 03:12 PM
  #418
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So you figure they are going to tie up 13 million in goalies? Or are you taking Bryz back?

As far as a shortened season being a plus for the Leafs....you are talking about a team that went on a 17 game losing streak last year for more reasons than just goaltending. Unless you can gurantee (which nobody can) that it doesn't happen again, then i'll forgo the optimism.

As far as Burke being fired...i'm willing to bet he gets an extension no matter what.

I'll agree with one thing, if Burke can get Luongo at a price he feels works...he will. If not, you can be damn sure he'll run with Reimer.
I'm think people are believing Brz will do something crazy to violate his contract rights while he's in Russia. As crazy and weird of a guy he is, I doubt he's throwing away millions.

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12-21-2012, 03:23 PM
  #419
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I'm think people are believing Brz will do something crazy to violate his contract rights while he's in Russia. As crazy and weird of a guy he is, I doubt he's throwing away millions.
Agreed, he's got guranteed money waiting in Philly.

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12-21-2012, 03:33 PM
  #420
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
However, he doesn't know if he can trust Reimer. That will be there until he actually backstops them to the playoffs. So if you were Burke, and you have a favourable situation like a shortened season in front of you, are you really going to have faith that Reimer doesn't again foil your plans? Or are you going to remove that uncertainty out of the equation if you can? I think Burke goes out and finds a solution.
What if Burke moves quality young pieces before the season starts and the Leafs look poor in front of Luongo en route to 9-13th place finish? Catastrophic in a shortened season.

Burke should wait and see how Reimer and his team performs for at least 10 games IMO to see where they're at. If you're ever going to 'tank' for a high pick, this is the year to do it. You only have to suffer through half as many defeats due to the shortened season and the draft is very strong. Burke could go to ownership and say he has a deal on the table that could get them in the playoffs(Luongo) or stand pat, take their lumps and draft their future 1st line centre. If ownership likes the direction of building for the future than that's what Burke should do.

Ultimately, getting Luongo might be the worst thing the Leafs could do right now. Luongo will singlehandedly keep them from acquiring a top pick, yet the collection of skaters just isn't going to be strong enough to compete for the cup anytime soon. That organization would just be stuck in limbo for another 5-7 years, barring signing a bonafide 1st line centre ala Ryan Getzlaf.

Acquiring Luongo before the season starts would be a mistake IMO.

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12-21-2012, 03:58 PM
  #421
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It's just my opinion, but we aren't talking about an add on for a cup run. Luongo is a major piece with a high price tag. I think if a team is seriously considering him, it would need to be for a full season. I think you can scratch Philly (Bryz) Wash (2 good young goalies) and Ottawa (very happy with their goalies) off of the list. FLA would be interested if the deal is soft and salary goes back. Edm may be interested...not sure how much but i think it would be a good fit. Chicago seems obvious, but with the divisional thing who knows. SJ....not sure what they'd be willing to give, but the fit is good.As for TO, i think Burke stands pat in a shortened season and waits for the offseason.

Again, a trade deadline deal for a guy with 9 years left....maybe, but unlikely.
Possible destinations, in this context, meaning more that they tried their goalie options, and they didn't work out as well as well as planned. With a deadline deal, that gives plenty of time to try their guys, and expecting all of them to work out is something I can't entirely agree with. Ottawa, Washington, Philly and Florida all working out as high as expectations are? I can't say I'd hold my breath on that one, but it's a "maybe", not a "probably" that one or two might no do it. Winnipeg I should add too.

As for big contracts moving at the deadline, fair point, I don't think it's as simple as "none will move", but it's just no less common then doing it as regular trade.

My thoughts anyway, take em with a grain of salt.

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12-21-2012, 04:21 PM
  #422
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So you figure they are going to tie up 13 million in goalies? Or are you taking Bryz back?

As far as a shortened season being a plus for the Leafs....you are talking about a team that went on a 17 game losing streak last year for more reasons than just goaltending. Unless you can gurantee (which nobody can) that it doesn't happen again, then i'll forgo the optimism.

As far as Burke being fired...i'm willing to bet he gets an extension no matter what.

I'll agree with one thing, if Burke can get Luongo at a price he feels works...he will. If not, you can be damn sure he'll run with Reimer.



PHI will have to find a way to dump Bryz prior to acquiring Lu.



Goaltending was a significant factor in TOR going on that 17 game losing streak. Burke needs to eliminate that uncertainty while he still can.


The shortened season couldn't have come at a better time for Burke. It will skew the evaluation of him when ownership has to decide if he's worth keeping on board. Still, he's got do a sell job if he turns in another failed season. I think he'll be fired, guess we'll wait to see.






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What if Burke moves quality young pieces before the season starts and the Leafs look poor in front of Luongo en route to 9-13th place finish? Catastrophic in a shortened season.


Depends on what he deals, if he does. Sure, there's a possibility TOR could miss even with Luongo. But then, there's almost a certainty (4 years of history) they miss without him. He will have to weigh it.



Burke turning in another losing season, 5 to complete the deal, will already be catastrophic for his future. All a matter of perspective.




Quote:
Burke should wait and see how Reimer and his team performs for at least 10 games IMO to see where they're at. If you're ever going to 'tank' for a high pick, this is the year to do it. You only have to suffer through half as many defeats due to the shortened season and the draft is very strong. Burke could go to ownership and say he has a deal on the table that could get them in the playoffs(Luongo) or stand pat, take their lumps and draft their future 1st line centre. If ownership likes the direction of building for the future than that's what Burke should do.

Ultimately, getting Luongo might be the worst thing the Leafs could do right now. Luongo will singlehandedly keep them from acquiring a top pick, yet the collection of skaters just isn't going to be strong enough to compete for the cup anytime soon. That organization would just be stuck in limbo for another 5-7 years, barring signing a bonafide 1st line centre ala Ryan Getzlaf.

Acquiring Luongo before the season starts would be a mistake IMO.



Explain to me how Burke sells tanking to build for the future to an group where he has already spoke about re-tooling instead of re-building. What message does it send when he trades for Kessel by two building block 1st round picks. Tanks. Kessel eventually walks, only to have Burke sell a full rebuild by the end of it? If he were able to pull that off, then he should start selling bridges to the owners as well.





You're arguing three things: Burke should not want Luongo prior to season start, Leafs should tank and they should wait 10 games before making a move. The answers:


- A 10 game sample vs. an 82 game collapse last year + 4 years overall. Yeah, I don't think a 10 game sample will tell him anything more in this situation. He either knows now if he needs to upgrade, or he doesn't. On the other hand, waiting games is a good strategy for VAN though - it gives them a better understanding of the new landscape.


- Leafs can't tank --> Goes against Burke's plan and it may cause better pieces to walk.


- Burke should want Luongo in a landscape where he is seen as the prime suitor. That's the offseason. If it gets to the season, a lot more factors can impact his position, so why would he want the added variables? The table is set for him to get a deal done now. It's up to him to recognize it.

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12-21-2012, 04:38 PM
  #423
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PHI will have to find a way to dump Bryz prior to acquiring Lu.



Goaltending was a significant factor in TOR going on that 17 game losing streak. Burke needs to eliminate that uncertainty while he still can.


The shortened season couldn't have come at a better time for Burke. It will skew the evaluation of him when ownership has to decide if he's worth keeping on board. Still, he's got do a sell job if he turns in another failed season. I think he'll be fired, guess we'll wait to see.










Depends on what he deals, if he does. Sure, there's a possibility TOR could miss even with Luongo. But then, there's almost a certainty (4 years of history) they miss without him. He will have to weigh it.



Burke turning in another losing season, 5 to complete the deal, will already be catastrophic for his future. All a matter of perspective.









Explain to me how Burke sells tanking to build for the future to an group where he has already spoke about re-tooling instead of re-building. What message does it send when he trades for Kessel by two building block 1st round picks. Tanks. Kessel eventually walks, only to have Burke sell a full rebuild by the end of it? If he were able to pull that off, then he should start selling bridges to the owners as well.





You're arguing three things: Burke should not want Luongo prior to season start, Leafs should tank and they should wait 10 games before making a move. The answers:


- A 10 game sample vs. an 82 game collapse last year + 4 years overall. Yeah, I don't think a 10 game sample will tell him anything more in this situation. He either knows now if he needs to upgrade, or he doesn't. On the other hand, waiting games is a good strategy for VAN though - it gives them a better understanding of the new landscape.


- Leafs can't tank --> Goes against Burke's plan and it may cause better pieces to walk.


- Burke should want Luongo in a landscape where he is seen as the prime suitor. That's the offseason. If it gets to the season, a lot more factors can impact his position, so why would he want the added variables? The table is set for him to get a deal done now. It's up to him to recognize it.
The table is set....except the price is to damn high.

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12-21-2012, 04:40 PM
  #424
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Burke should want Luongo in a landscape where he is seen as the prime suitor. That's the offseason. If it gets to the season, a lot more factors can impact his position, so why would he want the added variables? The table is set for him to get a deal done now. It's up to him to recognize it.
Burke may want Luongo to save his job but I don't think that means it's what is best for the organization. All Luongo does is bring them to respectability - he doesn't make them a serious contender.

If a new GM took over the reins right now for Burke do you think he should move quality young assets to acquire a 34 year old goaltender? I know it's not something I would look at if the goal was to build a championship calibre team. The building blocks simply aren't in place and all Luongo does is hurt the franchises ability to bring in those type of talents.

You bring in a Luongo before the season starts and run the risk of Jay Feaster'ing the organization. The race for 8th mentality just isn't the right one IMO.

Hopefully Burke feels pressured into paying a hefty price for Luongo. However, that doesn't make it the right play.

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12-21-2012, 05:07 PM
  #425
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The table is set....except the price is to damn high.


True enough. You have to expect Gillis to drop it, but by how much remains the question...



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Burke may want Luongo to save his job but I don't think that means it's what is best for the organization. All Luongo does is bring them to respectability - he doesn't make them a serious contender.

If a new GM took over the reins right now for Burke do you think he should move quality young assets to acquire a 34 year old goaltender? I know it's not something I would look at if the goal was to build a championship calibre team. The building blocks simply aren't in place and all Luongo does is hurt the franchises ability to bring in those type of talents.

You bring in a Luongo before the season starts and run the risk of Jay Feaster'ing the organization. The race for 8th mentality just isn't the right one IMO.

Hopefully Burke feels pressured into paying a hefty price for Luongo. However, that doesn't make it the right play.



If we are talking what is best for the organization alone, then Burke should have never traded his 1sts for Kessel. The full rebuild is what was best - and he jumped the gun due to impatience.



You're right that the building blocks aren't there --> But then building from the ground up was never Burke's intention. Any new GM should though, I agree.



The mid-pack mentality is where TOR is right now. There's no changing it because Burke traded away prime picks to "accelerate" the process. The best course of action for a new GM is to gut that team and rebuild, but it isn't going to happen as long as Burke's at the helm. Nor should it. Ownership would not readily accept a complete course change at this late stage of the game (for Burke). Burke has to continue to act according to his "plan". If the plan is scrapped now after 4 years, then you have to question the guy making it... In for a penny, in for a pound.

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