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Carl Gunnarsson for a forward

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Old
12-20-2012, 05:42 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by The Podium View Post
Offensively easily, defensively not even close....
you do understand Garrison played a defensive role in seasons past right?

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Old
12-20-2012, 07:30 PM
  #127
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you do understand Garrison played a defensive role in seasons past right?
And that justifies him being better then Gunnarsson? Gunnarsson who was the team leader short handed (garrison wasnt), more blocked shots, more take aways, higher Corsi rel qoc, much higher Corsi qoc, had the lowest GA On/60 on the leafs while Garrison had the 3rd lowest, and there is the extent of my defensive stat knowledge. Garrison is a better two-way D, he is not better than Gunnarsson defensively

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12-20-2012, 08:40 PM
  #128
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I just don't see the point in arguing whether Gunnarsson would be a top 4 guy in Vancouver or not.

For one, the chances of Vancouver trading us anything near what it would take to get him out of Toronto are negligible. Second, Vancouver is probably one of the most balanced defensive groups in the NHL 1-4. If they had Gunnarsson, they'd be one of the most balanced groups 1-5 in the NHL... and all of them would get about 22-24 minutes a night. Forget pairings, if Vancouver was lucky enough to have those 5, they'd likely change on a game-by-game basis anyways. If they want to key in on a certain line, put Hamhuis and Gunnarsson on them. If they want to play a balanced game, the ice time gets spread evenly. When they want to trade chances, Gunnarsson and Hamhuis' roles would be reduced.

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Old
12-20-2012, 10:03 PM
  #129
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Do you guys think that chris kelly for gunnersson would work or toronto would have to add a prospect or 2nd round pick.

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12-20-2012, 10:15 PM
  #130
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Do you guys think that chris kelly for gunnersson would work or toronto would have to add a prospect or 2nd round pick.
No... not even close.

Chris Kelly brings nothing to the table that the Leafs don't already have an abundance of in other players. To get Gunnarsson, any deal that doesn't include Seguin, Bergeron, Krejci or Seidenberg is likely going to have very little traction.

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12-21-2012, 12:22 AM
  #131
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As of now the leafs have no one really to replace Gunner in that top 4 shutdown role... I believe Rielly could honestly play top 4 minutes next year in the nhl. Liles Rielly and Gardiner on one team just doesnt work. I would say at no point should we trade Gunner unless we sign a guy in FA to fill that role...

But if we did... 2nd line power forward wingers should be the goal, i know we have wingers but we could use a power forward on the wing somewhere, JVR is more like a guy who can use his body well but mainly uses his speed shot and two way play to his advantage. A guy who is nasty in our top six could help a lot... Im thinking Clowe, Kassian or Stewart.

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12-21-2012, 03:37 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Second, Vancouver is probably one of the most balanced defensive groups in the NHL 1-4. If they had Gunnarsson, they'd be one of the most balanced groups 1-5 in the NHL... and all of them would get about 22-24 minutes a night.
That would be impossible (due to sides), Gunnar would most likely be "Ballarded" on the 3rd pairing. ~15 min 3rd pairing dman.

I like Gunnarsson I think he's a fine top 4 guy and his salary this season is a steal. Unfortunately due to the Leafs D depth I think he's overplayed.

I can't see any situation where he gets dealt and a D isn't headed back to TO.

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12-21-2012, 05:24 AM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
No... not even close.

Chris Kelly brings nothing to the table that the Leafs don't already have an abundance of in other players. To get Gunnarsson, any deal that doesn't include Seguin, Bergeron, Krejci or Seidenberg is likely going to have very little traction.
Seguin - Won't happen for obvious reasons.

Bergy - Future captain and quintessential Bruin.

Seidenberg - Would be a sideways move at best but I like Seids more than Gunnar (just personal preference).

Krejci - Perhaps a deal could be made here but the Leafs would have to add a significant piece.

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12-21-2012, 06:44 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
That would be impossible (due to sides), Gunnar would most likely be "Ballarded" on the 3rd pairing. ~15 min 3rd pairing dman.

I like Gunnarsson I think he's a fine top 4 guy and his salary this season is a steal. Unfortunately due to the Leafs D depth I think he's overplayed.

I can't see any situation where he gets dealt and a D isn't headed back to TO.
Sides are the most overhyped aspect of a defenceman on hfboards. When it comes to 5on5 and shorthanded play, it really doesn't matter. NHL defencemen for the most part are perfectly capable of playing both.

Gunnarsson is of course overplayed, but there's a reason for that. He's our only top 4 capable shutdown defenceman... and when a guy is overplayed, it's highly unlikely that he's going to be traded.

The only time handedness is a factor, is on the PP, when you really want at least one guy playing the off-side to set up a 1-timer.

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Originally Posted by IrishPaulie View Post
Seguin - Won't happen for obvious reasons.

Bergy - Future captain and quintessential Bruin.

Seidenberg - Would be a sideways move at best but I like Seids more than Gunnar (just personal preference).

Krejci - Perhaps a deal could be made here but the Leafs would have to add a significant piece.
Which is exactly why Gunnarsson's going nowhere. As many leafs fans have repeatedly mentioned, he's grossly overvalued in Toronto and worth more to us than anyone else.

Seidenberg would be a sideways move at best -- for the Leafs. Then you factor in that Seidenberg is 5 years older than Gunnarsson, and the Bruins would likely have to add a significant piece.

Krejci might work, but seeing as he's not good enough to be a #1 centre that we're happy with, the Leafs certainly wouldn't be prepared to add much, if anything at all.

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Old
12-21-2012, 04:24 PM
  #135
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What about this for a Boston idea...

Under the assumption that there is a season... Gunnarsson, MacArthur & Lombardi/Connolly for Krejci & Seidenberg?

Of course, there's the possibility that after the abbreviated season all the B's end up with is Gunnarsson for those two, on the flip side, if that's the case, they do end up with Gunnarsson's rights and $8.5m in cap space.... a fair portion of which may be neccessary to accomodate a decrease in the cap, retain Horton, and give Seguin his raise.

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Old
12-21-2012, 04:32 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Sides are the most overhyped aspect of a defenceman on hfboards. When it comes to 5on5 and shorthanded play, it really doesn't matter. NHL defencemen for the most part are perfectly capable of playing both.

Gunnarsson is of course overplayed, but there's a reason for that. He's our only top 4 capable shutdown defenceman... and when a guy is overplayed, it's highly unlikely that he's going to be traded.

The only time handedness is a factor, is on the PP, when you really want at least one guy playing the off-side to set up a 1-timer.



Which is exactly why Gunnarsson's going nowhere. As many leafs fans have repeatedly mentioned, he's grossly overvalued in Toronto and worth more to us than anyone else.

Seidenberg would be a sideways move at best -- for the Leafs. Then you factor in that Seidenberg is 5 years older than Gunnarsson, and the Bruins would likely have to add a significant piece.

Krejci might work, but seeing as he's not good enough to be a #1 centre that we're happy with, the Leafs certainly wouldn't be prepared to add much, if anything at all.
are you really honestly standing there valuing Gunner over Krejci? I mean aside from the fact that Gunner would be a 3rd pairing dman after hamilton gets his feet wet...arguable top 4 dman dont net you 1b centers...

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12-21-2012, 04:37 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
What about this for a Boston idea...

Under the assumption that there is a season... Gunnarsson, MacArthur & Lombardi/Connolly for Krejci & Seidenberg?

Of course, there's the possibility that after the abbreviated season all the B's end up with is Gunnarsson for those two, on the flip side, if that's the case, they do end up with Gunnarsson's rights and $8.5m in cap space.... a fair portion of which may be neccessary to accomodate a decrease in the cap, retain Horton, and give Seguin his raise.
Not a chance. Bruins give up the two best players in the deal.

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12-21-2012, 04:38 PM
  #138
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are you really honestly standing there valuing Gunner over Krejci? I mean aside from the fact that Gunner would be a 3rd pairing dman after hamilton gets his feet wet...arguable top 4 dman dont net you 1b centers...
To the Leafs? Absolutely.

Gunnar's a solid #3/4 dman who's cheap as heck. Krejci's a solid #2 centre with a $5.5m contract. When the alternative to a 65-point centre in David Krejci is a 50 point centre in Tyler Bozak plus a potential .75 ppg centre in Connolly; and the alternative to Gunnarsson is a combination of Mike Komisarek, Cody Franson, Jake Gardiner, or John Michael Liles, it's quite easy to value Gunnarsson at or greater than Krejci.

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You could not be more wrong. Clearly, you've never played D before.
Krejci? I'll buy that. Seidenberg? no. While it's not a huge difference between Gunnarsson and Seidenberg, Gunnar's certainly got the edge, plus he's a lot younger.

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Old
12-21-2012, 04:59 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
To the Leafs? Absolutely.

Gunnar's a solid #3/4 dman who's cheap as heck. Krejci's a solid #2 centre with a $5.5m contract. When the alternative to a 65-point centre in David Krejci is a 50 point centre in Tyler Bozak plus a potential .75 ppg centre in Connolly; and the alternative to Gunnarsson is a combination of Mike Komisarek, Cody Franson, Jake Gardiner, or John Michael Liles, it's quite easy to value Gunnarsson at or greater than Krejci.



Krejci? I'll buy that. Seidenberg? no. While it's not a huge difference between Gunnarsson and Seidenberg, Gunnar's certainly got the edge, plus he's a lot younger.
ahhhh lost me at Tin Man Con-Man...Im a sabres fan...I been following that pot of gold for way too long...if Timmy is you're .75 ppg center who can easily supplant Krejci...good luck in the cellar again.

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12-21-2012, 05:13 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
To the Leafs? Absolutely.

Gunnar's a solid #3/4 dman who's cheap as heck. Krejci's a solid #2 centre with a $5.5m contract. When the alternative to a 65-point centre in David Krejci is a 50 point centre in Tyler Bozak plus a potential .75 ppg centre in Connolly; and the alternative to Gunnarsson is a combination of Mike Komisarek, Cody Franson, Jake Gardiner, or John Michael Liles, it's quite easy to value Gunnarsson at or greater than Krejci.
If Burke was offered Krejci for Gunnar straight up he does that deal in a second.

Krejci is a much better player then Bozak. With that deal the Leafs would finally be decent down the middle with Krejci-Grabo-Bozak-McClement. Connolly could play on the wing or be traded. Either way he would be gone by the end of the year. Steckel could be traded for a bag of pucks.

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12-21-2012, 05:23 PM
  #141
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ahhhh lost me at Tin Man Con-Man...Im a sabres fan...I been following that pot of gold for way too long...if Timmy is you're .75 ppg center who can easily supplant Krejci...good luck in the cellar again.
Not quite sure how you interpreted that from what I said.

I said Tim Connolly is a potential .75 point-per-game centre that can add to Bozak's productivity in the #1C role at times.. Would he supplant Krejci? no, but having him+Bozak as the #1C is a lot better for the Leafs than having Komisarek or Franson as the #1 shutdown dman.

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If Burke was offered Krejci for Gunnar straight up he does that deal in a second.

Krejci is a much better player then Bozak. With that deal the Leafs would finally be decent down the middle with Krejci-Grabo-Bozak-McClement. Connolly could play on the wing or be traded. Either way he would be gone by the end of the year. Steckel could be traded for a bag of pucks.
No, he really wouldn't. It would come down to whether or not he can convert a couple of his forward assets into somebody that can replace Gunnarsson.

Krejci may be better than Bozak, but he's not good enough to the point where we would be able to stop looking to upgrade the centre position. He does come with a contract that would likely prevent, or at the very least, inhibit us from acquiring a #1 centre though. A deal like this doesn't adequately satisfy any need, but creates another one.

Meanwhile, one of the weakest areas of the team is in the role of shutdown defencemen, and Gunnarsson is our only player in capable of filling that role.

A Gunnarsson-Krejci swap isn't far off... but it isn't something the Leafs are going to add substantially to, and isn't something that can be done in isolation.

edit:

To put it simply...

The Leafs are better off with

Lupul-Bozak-Kessel
MacArthur-Grabo-JvR
McClement-Connolly-Kulemin
Brown-Steckel-Lombardi

Phaneuf-Gunnarsson
Gardiner-Komisarek
Liles-Franson

than they are with

Lupul-Krejci-Kessel
MacArthur-Grabo-JvR
Connolly-Bozak-Kulemin
Brown-Steckel-McClement

Phaneuf- Franson?
Gardiner-Komisarek
Liles-Holzer


Last edited by seanlinden: 12-21-2012 at 05:33 PM.
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Old
12-21-2012, 06:06 PM
  #142
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Not quite sure how you interpreted that from what I said.

I said Tim Connolly is a potential .75 point-per-game centre that can add to Bozak's productivity in the #1C role at times.. Would he supplant Krejci? no, but having him+Bozak as the #1C is a lot better for the Leafs than having Komisarek or Franson as the #1 shutdown dman.



No, he really wouldn't. It would come down to whether or not he can convert a couple of his forward assets into somebody that can replace Gunnarsson.

Krejci may be better than Bozak, but he's not good enough to the point where we would be able to stop looking to upgrade the centre position. He does come with a contract that would likely prevent, or at the very least, inhibit us from acquiring a #1 centre though. A deal like this doesn't adequately satisfy any need, but creates another one.

Meanwhile, one of the weakest areas of the team is in the role of shutdown defencemen, and Gunnarsson is our only player in capable of filling that role.

A Gunnarsson-Krejci swap isn't far off... but it isn't something the Leafs are going to add substantially to, and isn't something that can be done in isolation.

edit:

To put it simply...

The Leafs are better off with

Lupul-Bozak-Kessel
MacArthur-Grabo-JvR
McClement-Connolly-Kulemin
Brown-Steckel-Lombardi

Phaneuf-Gunnarsson
Gardiner-Komisarek
Liles-Franson

than they are with

Lupul-Krejci-Kessel
MacArthur-Grabo-JvR
Connolly-Bozak-Kulemin
Brown-Steckel-McClement

Phaneuf- Franson?
Gardiner-Komisarek
Liles-Holzer
lol at bozak as the #1c...in what world are you living in that Bozak as a #1C makes u any kind of a contender for anything other than first pick of Mackinnion?

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12-21-2012, 06:06 PM
  #143
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I'm a Leafs fan, and I would still say that seanlinden's valuation of Gunnarsson is about as far off from reality as I've seen on this board

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12-21-2012, 06:13 PM
  #144
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I'm a Leafs fan, and I would still say that seanlinden's valuation of Gunnarsson is about as far off from reality as I've seen on this board
Most people would agree with that.

Maybe he is Gunner's agent or something?

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12-21-2012, 06:19 PM
  #145
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lol at bozak as the #1c...in what world are you living in that Bozak as a #1C makes u any kind of a contender for anything other than first pick of Mackinnion?
I'm not sure how your comment has anything to do with this thread.

We're not contenders with Bozak as #1 centre, and we're not contenders with Krejci as the #1 C and Franson or Komisarek on our top pair.

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Originally Posted by Badger Mayhew View Post
I'm a Leafs fan, and I would still say that seanlinden's valuation of Gunnarsson is about as far off from reality as I've seen on this board
Let me guess.... Gardiner with Phaneuf, right??

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12-21-2012, 06:29 PM
  #146
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If Carl Gunnarsson was a North American former first round pick most Leafs fans would be much higher on him than they are right now.

Leafs fans, among other faults, have a history of incorrectly judging defencemen.

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12-21-2012, 07:08 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Sides are the most overhyped aspect of a defenceman on hfboards. When it comes to 5on5 and shorthanded play, it really doesn't matter. NHL defencemen for the most part are perfectly capable of playing both.

Gunnarsson is of course overplayed, but there's a reason for that. He's our only top 4 capable shutdown defenceman... and when a guy is overplayed, it's highly unlikely that he's going to be traded.

The only time handedness is a factor, is on the PP, when you really want at least one guy playing the off-side to set up a 1-timer.
Handedness is very important.

Offensive dmen may find it easier to transition to the off side (Phanuef) because it gives them a better angle for passes/shots but on a defensive level the way your stick faces provides a huge disadvantage when forwards are attacking.

For a team that pinches a lot like Vancouver a left handed dman has a very hard time holding pucks in on their off side. They basically have to accept passes on their backhand in the O zone. Most professional have been playing the same side for years, it's not an easy transition at all.

On a stacked team like Vancouver there is no need to displace a better player (Hamhuis, Edler) to accommodate Gunnarsson. He's not that good.

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12-21-2012, 08:16 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
No... not even close.

Chris Kelly brings nothing to the table that the Leafs don't already have an abundance of in other players. To get Gunnarsson, any deal that doesn't include Seguin, Bergeron, Krejci or Seidenberg is likely going to have very little traction.
Is this post real life

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12-22-2012, 07:40 AM
  #149
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Handedness is very important.

Offensive dmen may find it easier to transition to the off side (Phanuef) because it gives them a better angle for passes/shots but on a defensive level the way your stick faces provides a huge disadvantage when forwards are attacking.

For a team that pinches a lot like Vancouver a left handed dman has a very hard time holding pucks in on their off side. They basically have to accept passes on their backhand in the O zone. Most professional have been playing the same side for years, it's not an easy transition at all.

On a stacked team like Vancouver there is no need to displace a better player (Hamhuis, Edler) to accommodate Gunnarsson. He's not that good.
Yes, for offensive defencemen, on the powerplay, there's an inherent advantage to playing the offside. But those opportunities don't come nearly often enough at 5on5 to make a difference as to which side is played.

It's also not a matter of "displacing" a defenceman. It would be a 5-man rotation when everyone is healthy.

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12-22-2012, 08:36 PM
  #150
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Toronto needs more defensive defencemen as well... hence our reluctance to trade Carl away.

Toronto needs a great many things if it isnt all too apparent by now.
Yes with Schenn gone and Komisaurus soon to be extinct, you're right.

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