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12-21-2012, 11:50 AM
  #726
Jigger77
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
So the vote goes through.. and then what happens?
They go swimming around in their cash bins and post pictures of it on Twitter with captions that look like they were written by 12 year olds.

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12-21-2012, 11:52 AM
  #727
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Originally Posted by Bill McNeal View Post
Seems to be the case.

They're voting to give permission to their leadership to possibly go through with something that could eventually lead to them filing for something else, which would then have to go to the courts, and then if that were to ever pass, they'd have to go back to the courts again.

Just a very convoluted pressure tactic that would only lead to something tangible if this lockout is still going on at this time next year.
I would bet the court battles would start (for real, beyond the posturing so far) if/when the rest of this season is cancelled. Then the union would disclaim interest and file an antitrust claim against a continued lockout.

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12-21-2012, 11:52 AM
  #728
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So basically they are doing everything to not negotiate.

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12-21-2012, 11:56 AM
  #729
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Originally Posted by Bill McNeal View Post
Seems to be the case.

They're voting to give permission to their leadership to possibly go through with something that could eventually lead to them filing for something else, which would then have to go to the courts, and then if that were to ever pass, they'd have to go back to the courts again.

Just a very convoluted pressure tactic that would only lead to something tangible if this lockout is still going on at this time next year.
It is becoming very convoluted. According to the legal expert who wrote the article for Sportsnet, a disclaimer of interest would be occur if Fehr walked away from the union while a decertification would be if the union disbanded and walked away from Fehr.

Given those two definitions, it becomes absurd for the players to vote on whether Fehr should walk away or not. From a legal point of view, it should be his decision. If it becomes the players' decision, then for all intents and purposes it should be a decertfication.

In the end, both sides may be sorry that things have gone this far.

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12-21-2012, 12:03 PM
  #730
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What does that mean? Legal jargon flies over my head.
Im pretty sure its a joke. Referring to Karl Rove on election night.

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Old
12-21-2012, 01:19 PM
  #731
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
there's lots of room for the NHL to grow, and indeed, it's been growing and doing fabulously well overall.
I just have trouble with marrying comments like that and your numerous negative comments about Bettman.

Personally, I hate that guy, I hate his "holier than thou" attitude, but you cannot argue with the success he has had in growing the game.

There are teams in the south so the NHL will have a national footprint, in order to get a better $ national T.V. contract, which will allow greater revenue sharing, which will allow greater salaries for players.

See how it all fits together?

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12-21-2012, 01:22 PM
  #732
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
An excellent article on the lockout:

http://business.time.com/2012/12/19/...e-nhl-lockout/
Good points, but very one sided.

Neglects the obvious point that several other sports leagues have a, or close to, 50/50 revenue split.

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12-21-2012, 01:49 PM
  #733
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
I would bet the court battles would start (for real, beyond the posturing so far) if/when the rest of this season is cancelled. Then the union would disclaim interest and file an antitrust claim against a continued lockout.
I agree absolutely but I think the owners will chicken out long before it gets anywhere near a court and they get their business model handed to them on a platter. There's always the possibility the owners can win the case but I don't see how given the facts of the case.

The players have given up their civil rights and liberties by joining the NHLPA and are only asking that they have their rights restored, the same rights as other workers in other industries have had for decades is something the judge will have a hard time denying. The only reason the owners have to having it overturned is that they don't want to compete on an even playing field with the other owners and that it makes for a cushier life being part of a cartel.

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Old
12-21-2012, 01:52 PM
  #734
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I agree absolutely but I think the owners will chicken out long before it gets anywhere near a court and they get their business model handed to them on a platter. There's always the possibility the owners can win the case but I don't see how given the facts of the case.
They can win it by proving it isd the scam everybody knows it is...there are even tweets proving it's just a negotiang ploy.

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Old
12-21-2012, 01:53 PM
  #735
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Originally Posted by Habbadasher View Post
I just have trouble with marrying comments like that and your numerous negative comments about Bettman.

Personally, I hate that guy, I hate his "holier than thou" attitude, but you cannot argue with the success he has had in growing the game.

There are teams in the south so the NHL will have a national footprint, in order to get a better $ national T.V. contract, which will allow greater revenue sharing, which will allow greater salaries for players.

See how it all fits together?
I don't like Bettman having three lockouts under his tenure, but I approve of his expansion philosophy. It's good for the game.

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Old
12-21-2012, 01:56 PM
  #736
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ok is this what the mayans meant?

thats it. no more nhl, no more union, no more hockey.
well if its a war both sides want then the fans should join in.
fans should egg the bell center, oh yes and all the houses of the players.
Egg all the fancy cars. Meet a player in walmart? make sure you brought an egg for his back. don't touch the kids, never touch the kids.

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Old
12-21-2012, 02:17 PM
  #737
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I don't like Bettman having three lockouts under his tenure, but I approve of his expansion philosophy. It's good for the game.
Without the lock outs it would still be an 8 or 10 team league like MLB with the same teams in contention every year and no salary cap or revenue sharing. Before the cap the asme 8-10 teams signed all the UFA's.

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Old
12-21-2012, 02:30 PM
  #738
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They can win it by proving it isd the scam everybody knows it is...there are even tweets proving it's just a negotiang ploy.
I'm not sure how many players really want it or have thought deeply about it but I'm fairly certain that this is what Fehr really wants and has wanted all along. Listening to Fehr long before the lockout happened I understood exactly what he wanted and that was a similar model to MLB and the disclaimer of interest is a means to accomplishing that goal.

Listening to Daly and looking at how well they have prepared their lawsuit it seems to me that Bettman knew it would come to this unless the two sides came to a new CBA agreement.

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12-21-2012, 02:33 PM
  #739
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I don't like Bettman having three lockouts under his tenure, but I approve of his expansion philosophy. It's good for the game.
How many strike/lockouts has been Fehr involved with?

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Old
12-21-2012, 02:41 PM
  #740
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I hope nhlpa decertifies and this goes to court for a lengthy period. Nothing would make me happier than to see these players lose 2 years of salary so they can save 10% of it.

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Old
12-21-2012, 02:51 PM
  #741
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I hope nhlpa decertifies and this goes to court for a lengthy period. Nothing would make me happier than to see these players lose 2 years of salary so they can save 10% of it.
meh, if it means ruining teams like Phoenix, Columbus and such, I'm all for it too. I sure wont cry cause G. Molson is losing dozens of Mil.

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Old
12-21-2012, 02:55 PM
  #742
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Without the lock outs it would still be an 8 or 10 team league like MLB with the same teams in contention every year and no salary cap or revenue sharing. Before the cap the asme 8-10 teams signed all the UFA's.
guess I'm not the only one who doesnt know much about Baseball...

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Old
12-21-2012, 02:59 PM
  #743
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meh, if it means ruining teams like Phoenix, Columbus and such, I'm all for it too. I sure wont cry cause G. Molson is losing dozens of Mil.
That would also ruin a few dozen jobs for NHL players.... and I am sure the union doesn't want that. Then again, within the union the interests of the members are so diverse that a union hardly makes sense. What is good for the superstars isn't always the same as what is good for the 3rd and 4th line players.

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12-21-2012, 03:01 PM
  #744
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meh, if it means ruining teams like Phoenix, Columbus and such, I'm all for it too. I sure wont cry cause G. Molson is losing dozens of Mil.
The owners should be fine. Players? Some may need to live a more modest lifestyle.

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12-21-2012, 03:46 PM
  #745
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
The owners should be fine. Players? Some may need to live a more modest lifestyle.
Why are you okay with the BILLIONAIRE owners "being fine" but the players who are the product, who risk their mind and body (see: Pronger, Marc Savard, etc) should be more modest?

It's pretty unnerving to see decent normal people think this way - I guess what I'm asking is for your justification why this is a right approach.

I want a 2 year lockout so it infuriates Molson and the other decent owners into firing Bettman but then again we won't know who we'll end up with after him. The sport we all love to watch is being hijacked by a handful of ***** and we're powerless to stop it - even though we're the only reason the league exists. Screw it, I say - the NHL is a failed experiment, I want a new league.

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Old
12-21-2012, 04:05 PM
  #746
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
You'd think that the NHL in the USA was on the level of cricket and handball the way people talk it down.

Fact is the 7 Canadian NHL teams made an average of 136 million in revenue, whereas the 23 US teams made an average of ~102 million. That's right, the 23 US teams averaged ~102 million in revenue. Yes, there's a difference in popularity, but it's not as massive as it's made out to be, and in any case US cities like NY, LA, Chicago, Dallas, Washington, Philadelphia, and Boston all have larger metropolitain populations than any city in Canada, so you don't need the same fan intensity to produce the same total revenue. American NHL teams certainly do better than CFL teams. If there were no Canadian teams in the equation, the salary cap would have been 58 million this year year, basically, to put things in perspective, the US markets are a full ~3 years behind the Canadian markets in terms of growth -- OMG what a chasm hockey is so weak in the USA .

You think Hollywood celebrities would be caught dead at an LA Kings game if the NHL was on par with water polo and kickball?

[[ Perhaps this particular point is weak and I just want to post eye candy. ]]

There are a lot of channels in the USA, anyone of them could host the NHL. ESPN, ABC, CBS, Fox, NBC ... Major League Soccer and NASCAR get on TV just fine, even as the NHL was on Versus which was not standard in many cable packages.

The USA is a country of ~315 million people or so. It can support many huge sports: NFL, NBA, MLB, PGA, NASCAR, UFC, NCAA football, NCAA basketball... even the WNBA and the MLS are growing. It's a populous, rich country, there's lots of room for the NHL to grow, and indeed, it's been growing and doing fabulously well overall.
Please, do yourself a favour and read local and even national newspapers & news medias(via Internet) based in some Southern US markets, and even in some traditional hockey markets... Good luck if you find articles about the NHL lockout in those medias. Hockey is less popular than Monster tractor in the US. Have you heard also of the 2008 financial crisis that put thousands of people out of their own hmes in the US ? That is why the ladst CBA contract doesn't cut it anymore. Life have changed a lot over 7 years. The new CBA must address the new realities. Fehr and players are living in Wonderland.

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Old
12-21-2012, 04:16 PM
  #747
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
The owners should be fine. Players? Some may need to live a more modest lifestyle.
If the owners lose and have to pay triple damages - which is what the NHLPA will be asking for - by Xmas next year more than half of the teams will be under water (or owe more money than the franchise value is worth). If that is your definition of fine, well that's fine by me. Can I have the Zamboni keys, please?

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12-21-2012, 04:17 PM
  #748
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Why are you okay with the BILLIONAIRE owners "being fine" but the players who are the product, who risk their mind and body (see: Pronger, Marc Savard, etc) should be more modest?

It's pretty unnerving to see decent normal people think this way - I guess what I'm asking is for your justification why this is a right approach.

I want a 2 year lockout so it infuriates Molson and the other decent owners into firing Bettman but then again we won't know who we'll end up with after him. The sport we all love to watch is being hijacked by a handful of ***** and we're powerless to stop it - even though we're the only reason the league exists. Screw it, I say - the NHL is a failed experiment, I want a new league.
I don't care about how much money owners have, as long as it's not in the red. I merely responded to someone else saying owners will lose out. Not as much as the players, that's my point.

Your new league will have player salaries at a fraction of what they are now. BTW, good job on bringing up Savard and Pronger because in other leagues they would be cut. That damn NHL benefit.

Out of curiousity, how do you feel about the evander kane incident?


Last edited by LyricalLyricist: 12-21-2012 at 04:23 PM.
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12-21-2012, 04:21 PM
  #749
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If the owners lose and have to pay triple damages - which is what the NHLPA will be asking for - by Xmas next year more than half of the teams will be under water (or owe more money than the franchise value is worth). If that is your definition of fine, well that's fine by me. Can I have the Zamboni keys, please?
That's a strong IF. Not to mention, if they manage to do that, all players without a contract won't get this settlement and it will destroy the league. Essentially, if players are stupid enough to push that far, I hope they are aware after the damage is done, there won't be an NHL for them after. It's not "pay me and lets play". It becomes "pay me and let me find a new career or go overseas". Overseas is a generous option I find because many teams have limits on foreign players.

BTW, liability of a business will never carry over to personal debt. Owners can go bankrupt and walk away billionaires. Just saying.

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12-21-2012, 04:50 PM
  #750
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I don't care about how much money owners have, as long as it's not in the red. I merely responded to someone else saying owners will lose out. Not as much as the players, that's my point.

Your new league will have player salaries at a fraction of what they are now. BTW, good job on bringing up Savard and Pronger because in other leagues they would be cut. That damn NHL benefit.

Out of curiousity, how do you feel about the evander kane incident?
Fair point re: your first paragraph. Regarding Savard and Pronger, them being cut and them not being cut doesn't really make a difference, their careers are over - they risked their health on a massive scale, who knows how painful their lives will be 5, 10 years down the road? Pronger's wife was distraught at what she saw in her husband - can't be in bright rooms, can't play with his kids, etc. It's awful. And they're not getting NHL Benefits, they're getting insurance just like any other athlete. Insurance that the team had to buy but insurance none-the-less.

I agree that the CBA really protects the players and gives them a lot of rights but when they're being trampled upon on every issue, the CBA can't really protect them. I'm morbidly curious to see what happens next as I don't know if the DoI or decertification is the right move.

Regarding Kane, I have no opinion because it's a non-incident. Sports journalists are self-serving scum, because if they didn't have anything to write about they'd be out of a job. We saw it during the JM/Gauthier era where the team on the ice had many obvious hockey-related flaws but the journalists refused to even discuss HOCKEY and insisted on mentioning how Spacek or Metropolit were doing since leaving the Habs and alluding to all sorts of things they heard "off-the-record" during their dinner dates. They gossip, they prey, they exaggerate. I don't blame them, it's their job, but I sure hate their guts.

If Winnipeg fans really think they feel the way the author suggested then they don't deserve a hockey team. A frigid cold city in the middle of nowhere should welcome some flavour and talent, Kane is a stud and he's not even a "locker-room-cancer" kind of problem, his problem is entirely fabricated by a handful of balding losers.

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