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When the NHL cancels the season, Fehr will Fight to Repeal the Cap

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Old
12-21-2012, 04:25 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by atomic View Post
MOD

It won't last 2 years. the players can't go two years without their big salaries. sure a few guys are getting paid well in Europe but most are getting a small percentage of their salaries. And what are the agents getting? It will start up by October of next year. Fehr will be fired if he doesn't get anything done by then.
Parise, Suter, Weber. among others are still laughing on their way to the bank. With the ridiculous bonuses they got, they can call it a carreer right now.

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12-21-2012, 04:26 PM
  #102
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Because many owners are ok running at an "acceptable loss". They use the loss from their hockey team to benefit their tax situation. Likely some of them are real fans as well and see it as a worth-wild expenditure for their entertainment. Both of those things are going to have pretty fine lines though before they become not worth it.

Also, some owners may see profitability in the future if the rules stay the same or change in their favor.

Or they simply cannot sell the team as someone else pointed out.
Again, completely agree.

I was just responding to an overly simplistic comment from another poster that questioned why owners of NHL teams would accept a league that returns less than a typical equity fund.......

It's a bit more complicated than that (and the benefits are a good deal more varied). Hence my admittedly smart ass comment regarding Craig's List.

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12-21-2012, 04:29 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
Please, what the NHLPA has offered is nothing close to a victory lap by the owners. If you think it is, you obviously have no background in Finance or Economics.

The owners know that accepting the NHLPA's current offer will not solve their economic problems and will just guarantee this whole mess will be played out again in a few short years.

Honestly, for probably 30-40 percent of the teams in the league, shutting down is probably a better alternative to accepting the NHLPA's offer.
The owners are already planning on playing this whole mess out again. Just as soon as whatever deal they sign is expired they will lockout again and cry poor. The only way this pattern is broken is if this lockout is made to hurt the owners in a meaningful way. Killing the salary cap would be an excellent start.

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12-21-2012, 04:30 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by The Last Dynasty View Post
I dare Donald to go after the cap

the league will say "fine, wanna make this nuclear? no guaranteed contracts and by the way...we can't find owners for these teams so we have no choice but to contract 4 teams...that's 92 jobs lost for the PA"
And if one of those teams are Edmonton or Calgary?

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12-21-2012, 04:35 PM
  #105
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So players have a shell life well here of re-training.Become a oil rig worker a lot of skilled workers are needed.Now is a skilled pro athlete is there skills transferable in real world?I think most of us no the real answer

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12-21-2012, 04:49 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
The owners are already planning on playing this whole mess out again. Just as soon as whatever deal they sign is expired they will lockout again and cry poor. The only way this pattern is broken is if this lockout is made to hurt the owners in a meaningful way. Killing the salary cap would be an excellent start.
I would love to see this explained. Honestly, and I try very hard not to be condescending in my replies to people, but the above is a pretty outlandish comment.

It is a verifiable fact that more than half of the NHL teams are doing no better than breaking even. Couple that with the situations in Atlanta, Phoenix, Long Island, Dallas, etc I think it's pretty clear that the NHL is not 'healthy'.

You are basically proposing the players bite the hand that feeds them. Also, I hate to tell you this but the owners are simply going to pass that along to us the fans. Those players trying to convince you the owners are evil and they deserve more money? They are essentially taking it directly out of your pocket.

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12-21-2012, 04:55 PM
  #107
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In response to the title... And the owners should offer significantly less than what they tabled 10 days ago. I'm still daring all these players to go to Europe and play out the rest of their careers; there or in the AHL.

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12-21-2012, 04:56 PM
  #108
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Fehr is anti-cap. Always has been, always will be. If you hire him, there is only one reason why. If he took the NHLPA job to get rid of the cap, which is really the only reason why he would take such a minor job, then he never intended on making a deal. No matter what the owners offered.

The first lockout was about the cap. The second lockout was about the cap. The third lockout is about the cap.

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12-21-2012, 04:59 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
I would love to see this explained. Honestly, and I try very hard not to be condescending in my replies to people, but the above is a pretty outlandish comment.

It is a verifiable fact that more than half of the NHL teams are doing no better than breaking even. Couple that with the situations in Atlanta, Phoenix, Long Island, Dallas, etc I think it's pretty clear that the NHL is not 'healthy'.

You are basically proposing the players bite the hand that feeds them. Also, I hate to tell you this but the owners are simply going to pass that along to us the fans. Those players trying to convince you the owners are evil and they deserve more money? They are essentially taking it directly out of your pocket.
Actually they have taken it out of my pocket before but they won't again so that part is covered. It is pretty obvious that the official sports league standard for negotiations is to lock out the players right from the start. This is the 3rd cba in a row where the NHL has locked out and missed all or some of its season. If the players simply conceded everything the owners proposed the owners would still be back at the end of the deal demanding more. This is a fact and there is absolutely no evidence to refute it.

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12-21-2012, 04:59 PM
  #110
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The players never thought that the NHL would cancel a season and be willing to cancel two last time. Cancel the season this time and the union is pulverized. Fehr will not be getting support if the season gets cancelled. He will be gone if the NHL cancels. It is just a matter of when and how soon IMHO.

People forget the support Goodenow had and how his willingness to protract that negotiaition got him canned. Players cannot afford to play lawyer games.

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12-21-2012, 05:04 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Seedling View Post
The players never thought that the NHL would cancel a season and be willing to cancel two last time. Cancel the season this time and the union is pulverized. Fehr will not be getting support if the season gets cancelled. He will be gone if the NHL cancels. It is just a matter of when and how soon IMHO.
Is this the same Fehr who just got overwhelming support for his disclaimer of interest vote?

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12-21-2012, 05:05 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Seedling View Post
The players never thought that the NHL would cancel a season and be willing to cancel two last time. Cancel the season this time and the union is pulverized. Fehr will not be getting support if the season gets cancelled. He will be gone if the NHL cancels. It is just a matter of when and how soon IMHO.

People forget the support Goodenow had and how his willingness to protract that negotiaition got him canned. Players cannot afford to play lawyer games.
I think its hard to imagine players having a resolve to continue this to year 2. And when they get their agreement its pretty hard to sell to the fans that it wasn't our fault ! When the CBA likely will resemble a lot like the one they rejected.

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12-21-2012, 05:05 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
Actually they have taken it out of my pocket before but they won't again so that part is covered. It is pretty obvious that the official sports league standard for negotiations is to lock out the players right from the start. This is the 3rd cba in a row where the NHL has locked out and missed all or some of its season. If the players simply conceded everything the owners proposed the owners would still be back at the end of the deal demanding more. This is a fact and there is absolutely no evidence to refute it.
There is really no evidence to the contrary either. The league was never 'healthy' during any of those negotiations so we don't really know what a profitable league would look like. You would assume if the owners (on the whole) were making money they would be a lot less willing to miss games. Making any amount of money is better than losing any amount of money (something the players, or the Hostess bakers, seem to not understand)

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12-21-2012, 05:06 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Seedling View Post
The players never thought that the NHL would cancel a season and be willing to cancel two last time. Cancel the season this time and the union is pulverized. Fehr will not be getting support if the season gets cancelled. He will be gone if the NHL cancels. It is just a matter of when and how soon IMHO.

People forget the support Goodenow had and how his willingness to protract that negotiaition got him canned. Players cannot afford to play lawyer games.
From the sound of it Goodenow was completely lost once the **** hit the fan.

It should be obvious that Fehr has his membership on a tight leash and his experience in work stoppage only reinforces the players trust in him

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12-21-2012, 05:07 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Seedling View Post
The players never thought that the NHL would cancel a season and be willing to cancel two last time. Cancel the season this time and the union is pulverized. Fehr will not be getting support if the season gets cancelled. He will be gone if the NHL cancels. It is just a matter of when and how soon IMHO.

People forget the support Goodenow had and how his willingness to protract that negotiaition got him canned. Players cannot afford to play lawyer games.
Fehr was hired because the players believe he is an expert at what he does and they believe he will get them the best deal they can get. I believe they will see this through.

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12-21-2012, 05:10 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Seedling View Post
The players never thought that the NHL would cancel a season and be willing to cancel two last time. Cancel the season this time and the union is pulverized. Fehr will not be getting support if the season gets cancelled. He will be gone if the NHL cancels. It is just a matter of when and how soon IMHO.

People forget the support Goodenow had and how his willingness to protract that negotiaition got him canned. Players cannot afford to play lawyer games.
Like it or not, the NHL (and a number of others) don't appear to get that the players have tied their fortunes onto Don Fehr. He will leave voluntarily at some point. Not so sure Mr Bettman's future looks that bright.

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12-21-2012, 05:11 PM
  #117
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There is really no evidence to the contrary either. The league was never 'healthy' during any of those negotiations so we don't really know what a profitable league would look like. You would assume if the owners (on the whole) were making money they would be a lot less willing to miss games. Making any amount of money is better than losing any amount of money (something the players, or the Hostess bakers, seem to not understand)
There isn't any amount of money the owners could make that would make them any more inclined to share more freely with the players. Never under any cba will the players get anything back that they gave up before. Never, ever, ever....

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12-21-2012, 05:13 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
Fehr was hired because the players believe he is an expert at what he does and they believe he will get them the best deal they can get. I believe they will see this through.
I believe that Fehr told them they would play this year. I also believe a year of lost salaries will destroy any so called unity.

The best deal has long since passed. If the season gets cancelled, the offer gets drastically worse. Bet on it. Fehr or no Fehr, they are looking at the same thing as in 2004. But hey, players are smarter than that.....right?

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12-21-2012, 05:13 PM
  #119
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In response to the title... And the owners should offer significantly less than what they tabled 10 days ago. I'm still daring all these players to go to Europe and play out the rest of their careers; there or in the AHL.
Typical negative attitude; so much for North America having the "best" professional hockey league in the world. Watch what you wish for.

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12-21-2012, 05:15 PM
  #120
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Like it or not, the NHL (and a number of others) don't appear to get that the players have tied their fortunes onto Don Fehr. He will leave voluntarily at some point. Not so sure Mr Bettman's future looks that bright.
If that is the case, then they are fools. So is Fehr if he thinks a cancelled season will still see him have "tremendous unity". The union is already cracking. Just wait until no cheques will be coming for a whole year or more.

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12-21-2012, 05:15 PM
  #121
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Fehr was hired because the players believe he is an expert at what he does and they believe he will get them the best deal they can get. I believe they will see this through.
To what end?

Do you believe the owners will at any point agree to any plan that see's them lose more money? The players have a LOT more to lose here than the owners do. These are billionaires with other, larger, ventures who are either using the NHL as a tax shelter or an expensive diversion. The players rely on the NHL for their working wage.

Ask yourself this, if the NHL ceased to exist tomorrow, who would be worse off, the players or the owners? Of the two groups, which group is more willing to turn off the lights rather than concede to the other?

Guys like Crosby and Suter will be fine, but the majority of the NHL is full of guys like Dominic Moore. Guys making a few million at most (many league minimum) who need that money to last them the rest of their lives. Guys who know they might not even be in the NHL in a few years if their legs give out or they hurt a knee. Those guys cannot afford to miss a season, let alone two.

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12-21-2012, 05:16 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
The NHLPA executive hired Fehr to get rid of the cap.
I am almost sure of it now.

It seems hard to believe, given that the union has agreed to what amounts to a several year wage freeze and restrictions on contract.

It doesn't make much sense to me that the PA would move so close to the NHL's offer and then draw the line on certain things (most notably--5 year vs 8 year contracts and who pays for the damage caused by the lockout ... an issue that gets bigger each day).

It doesn't make sense unless you consider that Fehr is counting on the NHL owners' greed, pride and arrogance -- that will lead the NHL into locking out the PA.

Fehr couldn't put the cap on the table from the beginning because the hockey media, pro-owner as it is, would revolt. In fact, moderate players would not have the stomach for it.

So Fehr has been stringing this out, offering bits here and there... knowing the greedy owners would never accept anything he proposed.

He's offered just enough to make the moderates think the PA has given (and the PA has given-- there's no denying who has made the real concessions and who hasn't).

The NHL is not going to get the deal the NFL or NBA got with Fehr at the table. That's obvious. Unless they find a bludgeon.

When the NHL cancels the season, Fehr and the executive will have exactly what they want... the fight to repeal the salary cap.

This lockout may last two years.
We've been telling you this for months.

It's good to see that we have brought you around to our line of thinking.

The one thing you are missing though is how the league will bring in replacement players next fall.

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12-21-2012, 05:17 PM
  #123
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I think its hard to imagine players having a resolve to continue this to year 2. And when they get their agreement its pretty hard to sell to the fans that it wasn't our fault ! When the CBA likely will resemble a lot like the one they rejected.
I tend to agree. Short careers and millions lost....not a position of strength. If the season gets cancelled, it will be back to 43%. Book it.

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12-21-2012, 05:18 PM
  #124
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That's debatable.

When you pay $250 million for a hockey team and it's now worth $150M... that's real losses of money you already had.

When you don't play for a year and you lose $5M.... that's the loss of money you never had and hoped to get.

On the other hand, if you bought that team for $250M and hoped to sell it for $400M ..and its only worth $150M... you've lost $100M for real and $150M you hoped to get.

These are just made numbers, of course, but I'm just making a point.

We don't talk about the owners' side on this because we don't understand it.

We understand, in simple terms, not getting your paycheck. We understand, in simple terms, losing more money than you make.

but what we don't understand is the real complexity of sports team ownership. We rarely talk about the real motivations for sports team ownership and act as if it is some mom and pop pizza joint.

I don't understand it. I've read lots of articles, but most of it is speculation. There is no one-size-fits-all motivation.
You pass over the lost jobs argument again. A completely free market will see shrinkage of the league. There is a point where even investors with their toys will walk away from a significant capital loss rather than risk more capital to sustain a dying entity.

I would be willing to bet that if Fehr got an all out win (anti-trust) that the NHL as currently consistuted would die away over time and that if it were to be replaced you would see a startup league go to the single entity model of MLS to avoid the anti-trust issues. I don't think hockey is big enough even at the TML level to not have ownership walk away judging by walkaways around other sports franchises.

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That is a silly thing to say.

Truth is it's a failure of leadership that leads organizations to only care about the top dogs: it's something that is not intrinsic to unions (or businesses for that matter)
I love this point as there are very distinct schools of thought about this with regards labor. Unfortunately, Americans have been in the top dog school for a long time. There are significant philosophical underpinnings to these different views of the social order.

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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
The owners are already planning on playing this whole mess out again. Just as soon as whatever deal they sign is expired they will lockout again and cry poor. The only way this pattern is broken is if this lockout is made to hurt the owners in a meaningful way. Killing the salary cap would be an excellent start.
Your correlation fails. It is not causal. It is part of the bigger picture. Their was concomitant activity by agents to raise wages astronomically. I do think it is possible that if the PA or hockey players go to court and win substantially that that will end lockouts. I don't think intransigence will do squat by itself. Goodenow already tried and failed. Answer the Goodenow failure before you bring the argument up again. On a basically level, intransigence can be met with intransigence which would mean continuing lockouts. It is not a one-sided tool.

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12-21-2012, 05:19 PM
  #125
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Guarantee?
PA's offer, by any reasonable expectation, gets the owners to 50-50 by year 5.
Early on, thanks to the escrow clause, the owners will probably even pay more than 57 percent, because the owners' lockout is causing serious damage to revenues.

But revenues can bounce back quickly.
...and remind us again of the length of the CBA term that Fehr proposed. Could it be 5 years?

The escrow clause and make whole proposals are now off the table, likely due to the damage to revenues being caused by the NHLPA's bad faith bargaining.

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