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NHL Lockout Discusion XXXIII: It's the same old song. **MOD WARNING POST 274

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Old
12-21-2012, 04:36 PM
  #976
GrandChelems
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OK everyone drink a glass of apple juice and get back to being optimistic, your blood sugar levels are visibly dropping.

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12-21-2012, 04:37 PM
  #977
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I have to think that Bettman would hate to have a 2nd season lost on his watch, it would leave a terrible legacy, something gets worked out here with both sides giving in to make this work.
Actually, this comment makes alot of sense. Gary's sense of self is pretty big I think, however; he is paid by the owners to play hard ball. He will likely give the Fehr's one more shot at it, past that, he may not like it, but he will pull the plug.

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12-21-2012, 04:39 PM
  #978
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OK everyone drink a glass of apple juice and get back to being optimistic, your blood sugar levels are visibly dropping.
There is no question that this can be resolved before another season is cancelled. It will come down to the players relenting if that is the case. They need to believe Gary will do it, and without notice. If they firmly believe it, they will get it done.

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12-21-2012, 04:39 PM
  #979
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First of all, there is no high ground. Don't let anyone fool you into thinking there is. No one comes out of this on the high ground. In fact both sides ground levels are lower than they were before this started.

Second of all, there is nothing whiny about this "take it or leave it" offer. The NHL has been negotiating off their own offer since September. 4 months. They have had enough and said this is what you got, if you want it you can take it and we can play. If you don't you can sit there, lose all your money and be poorer no matter what offer you take at the end of this.

This stand still right now is a direct result of Donald Fehr's doing. His sitting on his ass refusing to even acknowledge the current system the league has in place, for the last four months of this negotiations has left us here.

Once again, I am not going to sit here and try to say Gary Bettman is a saint and Donald Fehr is evil. But facts are facts, Donald Fehr pushed just a little to far with the NHL and here we are at a stand still and about to lose another season.

P.S. Those of you who keep saying, "they are too close to lose this season" continue to underestimate just how far the owners are willing to go to prove a point. Everyone talks about how the owners lowball offer to start these negotiations off "galvanized" the NHLPA, well Fehr's push, push, push tactics at the Player-Owner mettings a few weeks ago with the "moderate" owners did the same for their side.

If we are going to have a season, it is going to be because the NHLPA caves and accepts the NHL offer. Based on past actions, the owners and Bettman are done negotiating. Right or wrong.
Well said. Fehr has "negotiated" like someone who doesn't want to work out a deal.

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12-21-2012, 04:41 PM
  #980
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Red Wings' Mikael Samuelsson: NHL owners are 'playing pretty dirty' as NHLPA votes to enable disclaimer

http://www.freep.com/article/2012122...ws|text|Sports
How exactly are they playing dirty?

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12-21-2012, 04:44 PM
  #981
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Originally Posted by Slatsmsg View Post
There is no question that this can be resolved before another season is cancelled. It will come down to the players relenting if that is the case. They need to believe Gary will do it, and without notice. If they firmly believe it, they will get it done.
I think the owners are getting a lot of heat from sponsors to get this worked out, they underestimated the players resolve and hatred of Bettman. I do believe both sides will make concessions and get a deal at the last minute.

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12-21-2012, 04:49 PM
  #982
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Can someone explain why either side would have underestimated the resolve of the other? Didn't both sides sit out an entire season the last time? History doesn't suggest that either side would be surprised by the resolve of the opposition.

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12-21-2012, 04:49 PM
  #983
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How exactly are they playing dirty?
All the "movement" the NHL has done has been off their ridiculously insulting first offer. Then they portray that movement in the media as if they are generous.


If you want to blame the players you can blame them for choosing Donald Fehr to represent them. His negotiation strategy is ruthless(it has to be) and Bettman/owners hate dealing with him. I think he is doing a great job for the players.

One thing that is beyond confusing is the way both sides want to play the media/public/fan perception. There is no way either side would allow a 3rd party's opinion to alter what they want.

No one is ever going to think: "Hey, (Bob Mckenzie or Fan X) is really pissed off, maybe we should move off our demands."

Perhaps I'm being melodramatic, but this feels like a bad break up, in the sense that I now hate looking at the NHL logo, watching NHL network, or highlights on youtube. **** all of them.

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12-21-2012, 04:53 PM
  #984
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This is the tactical error that the players side is banking on and, if they don't move from this position, will be left standing there stunned when Gary announces game over.
They made a tactical error in assuming that the owners were rational businessmen?
We'll see.

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12-21-2012, 04:55 PM
  #985
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Originally Posted by SPLBRUIN View Post
I think the owners are getting a lot of heat from sponsors to get this worked out, they underestimated the players resolve and hatred of Bettman. I do believe both sides will make concessions and get a deal at the last minute.
I think the sponsers at this point are hoping for a cancelled season. Paying half price now is not worth it. Better to start fresh next year. NBC gets a year added to the end of its deal so they are paying 2012 prices for 2022 contract.

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12-21-2012, 04:56 PM
  #986
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Originally Posted by SPLBRUIN View Post
I think the owners are getting a lot of heat from sponsors to get this worked out, they underestimated the players resolve and hatred of Bettman. I do believe both sides will make concessions and get a deal at the last minute.
That's the way I see it too. The owners pushed hard to see if they could split the union. They now know that is likely not happening and the players also know that the owners are serious. A compromise will be made by both sides.

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12-21-2012, 04:56 PM
  #987
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Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
How exactly are they playing dirty?
They arent agreeing to the proposal that the PA has been putting forward...you know the one that has had no change to it except for the way they word it.

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12-21-2012, 04:58 PM
  #988
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Originally Posted by Haj View Post
All the "movement" the NHL has done has been off their ridiculously insulting first offer. Then they portray that movement in the media as if they are generous.


If you want to blame the players you can blame them for choosing Donald Fehr to represent them. His negotiation strategy is ruthless(it has to be) and Bettman/owners hate dealing with him. I think he is doing a great job for the players.

One thing that is beyond confusing is the way both sides want to play the media/public/fan perception. There is no way either side would allow a 3rd party's opinion to alter what they want.

No one is ever going to think: "Hey, (Bob Mckenzie or Fan X) is really pissed off, maybe we should move off our demands."

Perhaps I'm being melodramatic, but this feels like a bad break up, in the sense that I now hate looking at the NHL logo, watching NHL network, or highlights on youtube. **** all of them.
So.. What number should the NHL have started with that wouldn't show the leagues weakness in wanting to get a deal done, would have reached the 50-50 level in HRR, and would have been accepted at 50-50 by FEHR before now?

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12-21-2012, 05:07 PM
  #989
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After 30 plus threads, even most of us hardcore fans are really starting not to care anymore. It is like those old shows that rerun late at night on tv lol. Seriously I dont know how to describe these 2 parties anymore. It is just ridiculous. What turned from what should have been a simple tweak or 2 in the cba has become an issue at every corner and turned into the worst labor negotiation in history. Nevermind sports.

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Old
12-21-2012, 05:10 PM
  #990
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So.. What number should the NHL have started with that wouldn't show the leagues weakness in wanting to get a deal done, would have reached the 50-50 level in HRR, and would have been accepted at 50-50 by FEHR before now?
It wasn't just the number, it was the 5 year entry level deals, no arbitration, and 10 years in the league or age 30 until free agency. Gary over played his hand and broke what little trust there was. It galvanized the players and led us down this road. The players aren't blameless, but Gary really screwed that offer up.

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Old
12-21-2012, 05:12 PM
  #991
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Originally Posted by sheed36 View Post
Red Wings' Mikael Samuelsson: NHL owners are 'playing pretty dirty' as NHLPA votes to enable disclaimer

http://www.freep.com/article/2012122...ws|text|Sports
You and your boys are all mistaken, Mikael.

They're not "playing" at all.

The PA just doesn't get it.

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12-21-2012, 05:13 PM
  #992
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Originally Posted by NYRKING30 View Post
After 30 plus threads, even most of us hardcore fans are really starting not to care anymore. It is like those old shows that rerun late at night on tv lol. Seriously I dont know how to describe these 2 parties anymore. It is just ridiculous. What turned from what should have been a simple tweak or 2 in the cba has become an issue at every corner and turned into the worst labor negotiation in history. Nevermind sports.
this is basically it. im done caring. its like...whatever. cancel the season.

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Old
12-21-2012, 05:15 PM
  #993
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Originally Posted by Dr. Ogrodnick View Post
It wasn't just the number, it was the 5 year entry level deals, no arbitration, and 10 years in the league or age 30 until free agency. Gary over played his hand and broke what little trust there was. It galvanized the players and led us down this road. The players aren't blameless, but Gary really screwed that offer up.
Oh. So the "make whole" really isn't much of a factor?

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12-21-2012, 05:16 PM
  #994
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So will you have a season or not? I'm not annoyed as I have managed to go to a lot of Dynamo games and watched the Russian NT at the EHT.

I don't want a shortened NHL season to be honest, takes away the whole marathon aspect of the NHL.

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12-21-2012, 05:17 PM
  #995
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Possible scenario which is very unlikely but here goes anyway.

NHLPA wins the right to disclaim interest in court. NHL announces lock out of players lifted on the same day.

NHL files an appeal of DOI decision in NY court the same day.

The SPC is intrinsically tied to and governed by the CBA as previously filed court documents argue. The contract is unenforceable in the absence of a ratified and active CBA, therefor all contracts signed before the September 15 2012 expiry of the previous CBA would be void.

In any scenario, the league and it's owners could and should tie up any suit brought forward by any player or group of players for as long as possible. Delay hearings as much as they can. If the worst case happens and the court awards any player/s treble damages, expect those players to be waiting a long time to get paid off and very likely never play in the NHL again.

Also, to claim anti trust, you need to prove that the league is doing something wrong like capping your earning power in a free market? Last season, no player claimed the maximum amount of real dollars available to him. Not Sidney Crosby, not Alex Ovechkin. No player on rookie contract claimed his maximum benefit available to him either. Is it not legal to lock out the players? Based on precedent, yes it is legal. Labor law also supports the employer locking out employees.

Although Fehr has had some success with this method of bargaining in the past he did so in a league where if a player sued and was awarded treble damages, they could afford to pay, the league as a whole only made $250,000,000 profit last season. How do these players think they are gonna get paid? By who? If it was my team and I was told to pay players 3 times their salary I would just file chapter 11. Good luck getting any actual money before the major creditors and various governments, once they get their share there would not be much left, especially since the fiscal 2012 - 2013 year has netted me $0.00 income.

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Old
12-21-2012, 05:20 PM
  #996
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Oh. So the "make whole" really isn't much of a factor?
The make whole had nothing to do with the original offer, and didn't come into play until months later.

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12-21-2012, 05:26 PM
  #997
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Originally Posted by Dr. Ogrodnick View Post
It wasn't just the number, it was the 5 year entry level deals, no arbitration, and 10 years in the league or age 30 until free agency. Gary over played his hand and broke what little trust there was. It galvanized the players and led us down this road. The players aren't blameless, but Gary really screwed that offer up.
Like someone else said a while back, the players did an equally horrendous job of galvanizing the owners when Fehr played one too many games in front of the moderates last month. Now it really is a religous war and it didn't have to be that.

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12-21-2012, 05:26 PM
  #998
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Originally Posted by Haj View Post
All the "movement" the NHL has done has been off their ridiculously insulting first offer. Then they portray that movement in the media as if they are generous.


If you want to blame the players you can blame them for choosing Donald Fehr to represent them. His negotiation strategy is ruthless(it has to be) and Bettman/owners hate dealing with him. I think he is doing a great job for the players.

One thing that is beyond confusing is the way both sides want to play the media/public/fan perception. There is no way either side would allow a 3rd party's opinion to alter what they want.

No one is ever going to think: "Hey, (Bob Mckenzie or Fan X) is really pissed off, maybe we should move off our demands."

Perhaps I'm being melodramatic, but this feels like a bad break up, in the sense that I now hate looking at the NHL logo, watching NHL network, or highlights on youtube. **** all of them.
That wasn't insulting, it's called negotiating. The owners wanted 50%, the players already make 57%, so they offer 43% and try to meet somewhere in the middle (50%).

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12-21-2012, 05:30 PM
  #999
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Originally Posted by NJDevs26 View Post
Like someone else said a while back, the players did an equally horrendous job of galvanizing the owners when Fehr played one too many games in front of the moderates last month. Now it really is a religous war and it didn't have to be that.
Fehr played his nice little PR tactic to piss off the Bettman an co on podium night.

Fehr: "Ugh, we've agreed on money. Oh wait, let me check my voicemail."

What pos move. Fehr's a snake. Bettman's no angel but Fehr has actually managed to make Bettman look like a good guy in all of this.

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12-21-2012, 05:30 PM
  #1000
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Originally Posted by NJDevs26 View Post
Like someone else said a while back, the players did an equally horrendous job of galvanizing the owners when Fehr played one too many games in front of the moderates last month. Now it really is a religous war and it didn't have to be that.
I agree, Fehr hasn't handled it well, but what you are talking about is months after Gary informed the players that the owners wanted to strip all of their rights away on top of a low ball HRR offer. Maybe it doesn't turn into an ego pissing contest if Gary doesn't make that brutal offer.

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