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Lockout V: Take the Long Way Home

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Old
12-21-2012, 01:13 PM
  #626
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Originally Posted by aj8000 View Post
It has nothing to do with how much the players have moved. This is not a normal union business relationship. The owners have the CBA in mind they want with a small margin of change to those terms. This negotiation was going to result in the players giving up everything to meet the criteria set out by the owners.

The only thing the owners gave up was the make whole provision. The players have now maxed that amount and the deal will not get any better ( it may even start to drop)

Going forward, the players are going to give up thousands of dollars to get back a few hundred. Not smart bargaining

And I am using the term "negotiation" etc for convenience. Like it or not the owners are dictating the terms of the CBA, and the players are not smart enough to realize that they should have taken the deal back when they had the 82 game schedule available to them.
Based on this argument the players should have taken the first club over the head from the league and said "Thank you". "Please feel free to lock us out any time you want more from us". "If there is anything else we can do to help you chop our compensation by all means just ask".

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12-21-2012, 01:20 PM
  #627
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So, no surprise, the players voted "yea" to authorize a DOI. Now with that and the NHL filing their NLRB/court filings, and I guess we're all set for liftoff to court I guess. So I guess we have about 2-3 weeks of negotiation time-maybe less if the players decide on Jan 2nd to DOI and the owners decide at that point to cancel the season.

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12-21-2012, 01:52 PM
  #628
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
Based on this argument the players should have taken the first club over the head from the league and said "Thank you". "Please feel free to lock us out any time you want more from us". "If there is anything else we can do to help you chop our compensation by all means just ask".
This is the thought process that really bugs me. In my view, as cruel and "draconian" as the owners have been, all they really want is to make a decent profit. But they will always treat those that make it happen fairly. Those are the players and the countless other people they employ to run the operation. It takes so much to run a team. An owner knows and is responsible financially for all of it. Players have to understand that. The NHL needs some ability to run the league at least financially the way they see it. That's their job. Players job is to make the product the best it can be. But make no mistake, if its not this exact group of players, it would be another. If the playersare really so bothered by how the NHL wants to run business, there are a multitude of other leagues they can join. Hell they could all do to swizterland and make that the elite hockey league. Problem is, they wont get even class to the same royal treatment they get from the NHL and its owners. The league is what allowed this business to grow. The league is what lured fans in and kept them around. The players come and go and get rich while they are around. They talk about making concessions but really they are only conceding what the owners decided to give them for the sake of makng their team competetive. They are conceding what was GIVEN to them not what us rightfully theirs.

If the players had just "bent over" and taken the fair offer owners presented, they would be just fine. And Im pretty damn confident that if the league continued trending upward, they would most definitely NOT host another lockout. What could they gain from that? Nothing.


Last edited by CombatOnContact: 12-21-2012 at 02:03 PM.
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12-21-2012, 02:02 PM
  #629
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Never quite understand when reporters quote this. They use the salary figures players would have earned under the previous CBA, which is the whole point of the lockout, so the amount of salary lost they quote would never have been earned under any circumstances.


The true salary lost would be the amount the players could have earned accepting a particular offer the NHL gave them for a certain number of games.
I'll play. Compared to the October 17 offer the players have now lost about $600M. The $211M 'Make whole' offer on November 9 then more or less covered the amount the players lost from the October 17 offer until November 9, meaning the players would've been just as well off accepting either of those offers.

Since the December 6 $300M 'Make whole' offer the players have lost about $130M. However, by accepting the December 6 offer the players would have been about $150M worse off than by accepting either the October 17 or November 9 offers.

Small note: all numbers above are assuming the number of games played and league revenues are scaled down at a linear relationship with the number of days since October 17.

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12-21-2012, 02:03 PM
  #630
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Originally Posted by CombatOnContact View Post
This is the thought process that really bugs me. In my view, as cruel and "draconian" as the owners have been, all they really want is to make a decent profit. But they will always treat those that make it happen fairly. Those are the players and the countless other people they employ to run the operation. It takes so much to run a team. An owner knows and is responsible financially for all of it. Players have to understand that. If they are really so bothered by
I agree. Why can't there be mutual understanding as there is in many successful businesses. The owners want to profit, the employees (players) want to make a good living. The only way to do that is to ensure that the industry in which you work is a profitable one.

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12-21-2012, 02:10 PM
  #631
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I agree. Why can't there be mutual understanding as there is in many successful businesses. The owners want to profit, the employees (players) want to make a good living. The only way to do that is to ensure that the industry in which you work is a profitable one.
Exactly. And seriously, enough of the entitlement crap. The owners are the ones who get the money flowing in. Should be up to them to figure out how it is paid out. They did a terrible job of it before, but that was also largely due to the system in place that forced them to drive up price in order to compete. They want to build a proper structure for all to prosper. Including the players. Let them.

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12-21-2012, 02:16 PM
  #632
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I also think its absolutely crap that the PA is fighting for future players. Maybe some truly are, but the majority (and certainly not the leadership) is fighting for THIS group and this group only. Ask most future NHLers and I bet they dont know dont care too much and just want a healthy functioning league to join once they get there. The current PA is not helping to make that happen. In fact, they seem to be doing the opposite. Fighting against the future, not for it.

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12-21-2012, 02:19 PM
  #633
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not really

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePhoenixx View Post
Thanks!

Follow up question.

The NHL obviously doesn't have the money if the players win.

So would the owners then be on the hook for the tab? If so, aren't players really suing their own owners? It would be like Horcoff is suing Katz, or Crosby is suing...etc.
First of all, while there is good probablity that they would sue the respective teams and the NHL there isn't any bar to them suing the owners as individuals. It's called piercing the corporate shield. Not sure what the court might do in an anti trust suit that included the owners personally as well as their ownership interests in an NHL franchise.

While incorporation is typically a bar to personal law suits, it is NOT inviolate. Meaning if the law suit naming the owners individually succeeds in peircing the corparate shield of one or more of the owners then it gts really interesting.

To be clear I'm not suggesting it's an easy path, but I suspect I'd advise my client to try it if it were me. It might serve to force the individual owners into an indelicate position.

If they have to defend themselves and the franchise has to defend itself, they can no longer be represented by the same counsel. Nor can they really cooperate in each others defense. Meaning every owner has to get their own lawyers. they also cannot advise or direct the defense of the NHL franchise as they could be viewed as having competing interests at trial. Owners want to be free of a judgement forcing them to pay from their personal funds as do the respective NHL franchise. But the court could decide one was responsible and the other not. In particular, say an individual owner lost his suit but the franchise was not ordered to pay damages. That's why the court would severe the parties from each other and require separate counsel.

I am NOT saying such a tactic would succeed, it's a long standing premise of law that affords protection to owners of incorporated businesses. But its far fom impossible.

I'd try it if forced into a court room by this mess, if I were representing a player in an anti trust action.

All so unecessary IMHO

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12-21-2012, 02:50 PM
  #634
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Originally Posted by CombatOnContact View Post
I also think its absolutely crap that the PA is fighting for future players. Maybe some truly are, but the majority (and certainly not the leadership) is fighting for THIS group and this group only. Ask most future NHLers and I bet they dont know dont care too much and just want a healthy functioning league to join once they get there. The current PA is not helping to make that happen. In fact, they seem to be doing the opposite. Fighting against the future, not for it.
So what do you propose they do? Should they just automatically cough up whatever the league asks for? Remember the league that said they needed the concessions from the last lockout to be profitable? Now they come back for more. It isn't like the owners actually have any interest in a fair deal. They want as much as they can take for themselves. Period. Being rich business owners doesn't just turn them into good people. They are the robber barons of our society seeking to take more and more from those who have less than they do. If you really want to see hockey uninterrupted by lockouts you should be rooting for the players to make this process as painful as possible to the owners. Otherwise the countdown is already ticking for the next lockout.

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12-21-2012, 03:18 PM
  #635
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
So what do you propose they do? Should they just automatically cough up whatever the league asks for? Remember the league that said they needed the concessions from the last lockout to be profitable? Now they come back for more. It isn't like the owners actually have any interest in a fair deal. They want as much as they can take for themselves. Period. Being rich business owners doesn't just turn them into good people. They are the robber barons of our society seeking to take more and more from those who have less than they do. If you really want to see hockey uninterrupted by lockouts you should be rooting for the players to make this process as painful as possible to the owners. Otherwise the countdown is already ticking for the next lockout.
Whats your basis for this? Where does this come from? Seems like it might be based on your own envious nature. You may be rigjt that some of these owners are just as you say they are, but I would bet that most are not. Theres probably a whole lot we dont know about these owners, their business(es), and what they do with their money.

In any case, this notion that the owners are just doing yhe lockout to pick a little bit more cash from the players pockets is absolutely ridiculous and has zero basis. What the owners are doing is trying to make sure they can all turn a profit and at the same time share an equal playing field when it comes to paying players. That is the purpose of this. They want to make the league better and sustainable for 30 teams present and potentially more teams in the future. Do you think players have that in mind? Probably not. Should they? Absolutely not.

The owners wont have anothet lockout if the system works for them. They will if it doesnt.

They made many mistakes last time and that is why theres another lockout. If they make mistakes again then they will want to have another. But seems to me a lot of what they are pushing for is to close gaps and loopholes in an otherwise sound business structure for a competetive sports league. Remind me What are the pplayers pushing for again.. aside from making sure they can maximize every penny they can make.

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12-21-2012, 03:31 PM
  #636
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It's not too complicated actually
Yeah, but I'm not too bright...

Quote:
The players were getting 57% of HRR but how do you determine how much that translates into real dollars?

You wait for the season to end and run the numbers and then divide the pie up. However the players get paid during the season so a certain amount of their pay is basically docked in order to make sure they actually get 57% once the season is over.

This means that sometimes the players don't get the exact amount of dollars the contract stipulates because it would make the players share go over 57%. However there have been two (maybe three, don't have the numbers with me) when the players actually got more money at the end because revenues were good enough that the players' salaries and their docked pay was under 57% (actually when that happened I think the player's share of HRR was 53%)
So essentially, it's kinda like income tax withholdings, except at the end of the season the players AND owners might have to share it if total league revenue wasn't high enough?

Seriously, finance/numbers is, by far, my weakest subject.

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12-21-2012, 03:59 PM
  #637
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Yeah, but I'm not too bright...



So essentially, it's kinda like income tax withholdings, except at the end of the season the players AND owners might have to share it if total league revenue wasn't high enough?

Seriously, finance/numbers is, by far, my weakest subject.
That's one way of looking at it.

What the PA has proposed in it's latest proposal is to cap the amount the players can pay into escrow, which basically insulates from any drop in revenues. Basically if revenues go up they make more money but if they drop they wouldn't be making any less (depending on the proposed amount for this cap and how much revenues drop).

It effectively removes cost certainty: the only thing guaranteed is the players making the same amount or more money. It's a way for the players to say "it's 50/50 share on paper" but in terms of dollars it would be anything but.

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12-21-2012, 04:07 PM
  #638
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I also think its absolutely crap that the PA is fighting for future players. Maybe some truly are, but the majority (and certainly not the leadership) is fighting for THIS group and this group only. Ask most future NHLers and I bet they dont know dont care too much and just want a healthy functioning league to join once they get there. The current PA is not helping to make that happen. In fact, they seem to be doing the opposite. Fighting against the future, not for it.
That's ridiculous. If the players had solely their own interests in mind, they would have caved long ago.

They're continuing the fight because their predecessors also made sacrifices in order to get salaries up to the current level. They're also continuing the precedent of having a strong union that will not roll over.

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12-21-2012, 04:21 PM
  #639
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I dunno, I think that working out a fair deal that benefits both "sides" and is in line with other sports leagues in North America might do the trick.
NHL hockey IS NOT like the other sports. The other three are popular in every nooks and crannies of the USA: not hockey ! It is still a REGIONAL sport in the US while it is THE National sport in Canada, a country 10 times smaller in population.

As long as Fehr and the players won't accept and understand that hockey cannot get the same exposure and $$$ of the other major sports, they are condemned to hit a brick wall, a very thick and high one.

Of course NHL hockey players are great athletes and the best in their business, but some Amateur Canadian (even American) athletes in Olympic sports are as good and train as hard, and get a fraction of what a NHL hockey player is making.

And I will never understand how you can have a UNION like blue collars and in the same time have agents to handle to negotiate their fat contracts and handle their millions.

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12-21-2012, 04:37 PM
  #640
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Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
It would limit the percentage of money going into escrow. That means the NHLPA has proposed a 50% floor, and no upper limit.

For example, the NHLPA proposal is asking for a cap of 67M this year and limited escrow (10% I heard, but never saw that in print). Last year a 50/50 split would have been ~49M per team average . So unless the growth rate is 20%, the owners will pay a huge amount over 50. And that does not include the make whole or compliance buyouts.

Rough numbers of course, but you get the idea.
Speaking of a $67m cap is what the players were offer and something they could easily have gotten if Fehr was prepared to bargain last year.

* 67m is a nice raise over last years 64m cap

* locking the cap at 67m for 2 years would have allowed a seamless, painless transition to 50% splits.

* 50% HRR of 3.3b comes out at 62m cap. 62m + 150m/30 make whole gives 67m. Year 2: cap * inflation + 60m/30 make whole around 67M. 50% covers it from there.

* 67m locked in for two years = 210m make whole time or take.

* 54 52 50 50 50 etc


All this dependa on negotiating in advance, not trashing the season and the revenue stream.

Hmmm great negotiating to blow a

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12-21-2012, 05:26 PM
  #641
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
NHL hockey IS NOT like the other sports. The other three are popular in every nooks and crannies of the USA: not hockey ! It is still a REGIONAL sport in the US while it is THE National sport in Canada, a country 10 times smaller in population.

As long as Fehr and the players won't accept and understand that hockey cannot get the same exposure and $$$ of the other major sports, they are condemned to hit a brick wall, a very thick and high one.

Of course NHL hockey players are great athletes and the best in their business, but some Amateur Canadian (even American) athletes in Olympic sports are as good and train as hard, and get a fraction of what a NHL hockey player is making.

And I will never understand how you can have a UNION like blue collars and in the same time have agents to handle to negotiate their fat contracts and handle their millions.
I completely agree with you. Because the NHL has such a level of revenue disparity the league should be run as a free market system so that individual teams can control their spending. This would allow every team to make a profit because they have the freedom to spend within their limits.

The downsides are obvious, but why should fans who pay $100 a ticket not get to watch a better team than fans who pay $30 a ticket. Makes sense to me. Run your team well and build hockey in your market and your ability to spend will go up.

The owners proposal still doesn't address the revenue disparity, everyone knowledgeable on both sides of the fence have agreed to that. The fact is that the league is too different financially from the other leagues, so why should it be run the same way?

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12-21-2012, 05:35 PM
  #642
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The owners proposal still doesn't address the revenue disparity, everyone knowledgeable on both sides of the fence have agreed to that. The fact is that the league is too different financially from the other leagues, so why should it be run the same way?
Because those leagues are run in a way that makes sense and ensures profitability of the entire league while the NHL is still run like it's 1920 which sets the league up for failure in the modern world.

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12-21-2012, 05:36 PM
  #643
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http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nhl--nh...033207601.html

Costinika looks at what the "soft deadline" of January 14 means (WRT bargaining "deadlines"/drop dead date).



http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...ction/1784115/

Allen looks at fan reaction after the latest round of game cancellations.

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12-21-2012, 05:40 PM
  #644
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[QUOTE=SaintPatrick33;56725419]Because those leagues are run in a way that makes sense and ensures profitability of the entire league while the NHL is still run like it's 1920 which sets the league up for failure in the modern world.[/QUOTE

I don't see how that can be applied to the NHL. The salary shift will help, but not fix the problem. The National TV contract is not even close to as large, so the revenue from TV cannot fix the problem of small markets. There is no way the owners of the teams raking in all the money will agree to share enough of it to fix the problem. So what's left?

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12-21-2012, 05:46 PM
  #645
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There is no way the owners of the teams raking in all the money will agree to share enough of it to fix the problem. So what's left?
Then they have no desire to fix the problem. People forget, the NFL started their business modal at a time when they were financially in the same boat that the NHL is in now: A niche regional sport with gate driven revenue and small local TV contracts. The NFL was smart and figured out a way to have a viable profitable league while the NHL still clings to a business modal formulated in 1917.

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12-21-2012, 05:47 PM
  #646
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Hmmmm,

Jes Gölbez ‏@JesGolbez

So, http://NHL.com accidentally slips it that the season will be cancelled Jan 10th? http://i.imgur.com/zNpnT.png #NHL @wyshynski @Sean_Leahy
Retweeted by Kukla's Korner .com


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12-21-2012, 05:49 PM
  #647
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Originally Posted by Motown Beatdown View Post
Hmmmm,

Jes Gölbez ‏@JesGolbez

So, http://NHL.com accidentally slips it that the season will be cancelled Jan 10th? http://i.imgur.com/zNpnT.png #NHL @wyshynski @Sean_Leahy
Retweeted by Kukla's Korner .com

I bet that's photoshoped

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12-21-2012, 05:51 PM
  #648
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That's ridiculous. If the players had solely their own interests in mind, they would have caved long ago.

They're continuing the fight because their predecessors also made sacrifices in order to get salaries up to the current level. They're also continuing the precedent of having a strong union that will not roll over.
Very misguided if thats the case. Most predecessors that "made sacrifices" before them agree that they should better recognize just how good they have it and how fair it is. Most have realized that it truly is not a fight worth fighting. IF the league was truly being unfair, thats one thing. But this is not the case here. YES they are at fault also and deserve a ton of blame for this mess, especially because they had a chance theto get it right twice before, it cost them a season and a half, and they failed. But, be that as it may, can only hope they learned their mistakes and are now trying to right them. Players need to recognize that and let it go. Their predecessors wont think any less of them, and the future players will be better off and happier for it.

All that said, unfortunately the time for acceptance is long past. The NHL gave them plenty of chances (while failing to properly communicate with them). Now its fight or flight. Neithet side wants to end this thing without feeling that they "won" something.

Both sides are equally stupid for this, but reality is reality. And reality is the players are foolish for not understanding reality.

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12-21-2012, 05:58 PM
  #649
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http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nhl--ho...205300349.html

How the Greed stole hockey (with apologies to Dr Suess)

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12-21-2012, 06:03 PM
  #650
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http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nhl--ho...205300349.html

How the Greed stole hockey (with apologies to Dr Suess)
So Bettman is the greed? It was a really nice read until he took a side

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