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NFL in Toronto - Terrible idea

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Old
12-20-2012, 05:39 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by DaaaaB's View Post
Talking about guys who played in the CFL 20-30 years ago is pointless. Guys like Moon, Theisman, Ismail etc. would never go to the CFL today if they were just turning pro now. Vanderjagt had like 3 good years 10 years ago, whoopity do. Williams only played there because he was suspended by the NFL. Browner's not an elite NFL player but he is solid. Wake is an allstar in the NFL but he also only played two years in the CFL and none since 2008. Suggesting that Anthony Calvillo could've had a solid NFL career is just laughable.

So basically, the CFL might've had one player in the league this year who could be a good NFL player, if any.
Just because one player isn't elite in the NFL doesn't mean he isn't an elite athlete. The two leagues are almost different games entirely and some skill sets just don't always translate. Vince Ferragamo (a Pro Bowler) for example, sucked in the CFL because he just couldn't adjust to the new rules, as he said so himself.
Andrew Hawkins started making a bit of a name for himself this year in the NFL and yet, he was only a 4th or 5th receiver with the Montreal Alouettes. I am sure Jamel Richardson could make an NFL roster if he was given a chance, as he has all the tools necessary. But he refused an NFL contract offer a couple years ago to stay in Montreal. I believe S.J. Green did the same. Anyways, you will definitely see more CFLers crack an NFL roster every now and then, you just don't always hear about it.

I personally love the CFL (obviously). It's a different game and I can see why some people wouldn't like it but what I can't stand is people (Torontonians) dismissing it because of their big league mentality. A lot of these athletes are as good athletes as NFLers are. It's a league that's saved a lot of extremely talented individuals' careers by bringing them out of the oblivion and giving them a chance to succeed, and be recognized on the national (sometimes international) stage.

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Old
12-20-2012, 07:59 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Ryan34222 View Post
other than the Leafs hows the other teams doing in attendance? bottom half of each league?

NFL would be a like everything else not named Leafs.. out of the gates strong but fades fast
Rofl. Using numbers back to 2001, Raptors have averaged 11th. Leafs and Raptors are both in the upper half of their respective leagues. MLB we've lagged behind, but the Jays still have a solid fanbase which has recently started to grow especially due to Alex A's work. In game attendance has been poor, but they still maintain a good following otherwise and get decent TV ratings.

There are very few cities that can manage solid attendance and viewership for all 4 sports. Philadelphia for example, does well in the NHL and MLB, and their football team averages around 10-14 per year which is good too, but their NBA team, until recently, has been piss poor.

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12-20-2012, 08:08 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Ryan34222 View Post
Blue Jays had best in league attendance when good and a big shiney new state of the art stadium.. attendance faded fast, like one year after they won the WS fast. lol

yah guessing at bottom half.. ive seen the figures but dont remember exactly where Toronto sits but it hasnt been good for some time
So did every other team after the 94 strike.

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12-20-2012, 08:10 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by LeafOfBread View Post
Rofl. Using numbers back to 2001, Raptors have averaged 11th. Leafs and Raptors are both in the upper half of their respective leagues. MLB we've lagged behind, but the Jays still have a solid fanbase which has recently started to grow especially due to Alex A's work. In game attendance has been poor, but they still maintain a good following otherwise and get decent TV ratings.

There are very few cities that can manage solid attendance and viewership for all 4 sports. Philadelphia for example, does well in the NHL and MLB, and their football team averages around 10-14 per year which is good too, but their NBA team, until recently, has been piss poor.
The raptors have always had great support. 11th in attendance this year with that dreadful team and a 4-16 start.

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12-20-2012, 08:53 PM
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Don't blame the people in TO, who the **** would wanna watch the Bills play??

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12-21-2012, 12:24 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by ixcuincle View Post
Do you have any proof that NFL attendance would rise with a Toronto NFL team

Forgive me if I'm extremely skeptical

Given the Toronto curse...will fans still show up if the team fails to make the playoffs year after year?
Obviously it can't be proven but you have no proof that it wouldn't. How about the fact that Toronto has 5.5 million people living in the greater area and Southern Ontario has over 12 million people. You honestly think a city that size couldn't support an NFL team. Just use some common sense. And don't talk about the CFL because it's not popular in Ontario. Neither are the Bills depsite the fact that thousands of people from Southern Ontario go to every Bills game because they want to watch the NFL.

BTW, only women believe in curses.

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Originally Posted by Ryan34222 View Post
Blue Jays had best in league attendance when good and a big shiney new state of the art stadium.. attendance faded fast, like one year after they won the WS fast. lol

yah guessing at bottom half.. ive seen the figures but dont remember exactly where Toronto sits but it hasnt been good for some time
So you're just guessing and your guessing has already been proven as BS. Don't waste my time.

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Originally Posted by WinterEmpire View Post
Winning a Grey Cup has nothing to do with being able to support a CFL team. That has to do with player personal and management.

The Ti-Cats and Argos were the only two CFL to be losing money last year and Toronto has the worst attendance in the league. That's not some revolution that the Argos aren't well supported by the city.

The NFL in Toronto would not work at any time in the near future
"Toronto doesn't support CFL because it wants the NFL"
"Toronto doesn't support NFL because we don't have true team of our own"
Can't wait to hear
"Toronto doesn't support their NFL team because they don't win every year"

Not a football city
What do you not understand about the CFL not being popular in Ontario?

Vancouver struggles to support minor league baseball, I guess Vancouver's not a baseball. Do you see how dumb that sounds. I've talked to hundreds of people in Ontario about football and almost none of them like the CFL better than the NFL if they even like the CFL at all. I don't agree with this but it's thought of as a joke league in Ontario.
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Originally Posted by Yourface View Post
Just because one player isn't elite in the NFL doesn't mean he isn't an elite athlete. The two leagues are almost different games entirely and some skill sets just don't always translate. Vince Ferragamo (a Pro Bowler) for example, sucked in the CFL because he just couldn't adjust to the new rules, as he said so himself.
Andrew Hawkins started making a bit of a name for himself this year in the NFL and yet, he was only a 4th or 5th receiver with the Montreal Alouettes. I am sure Jamel Richardson could make an NFL roster if he was given a chance, as he has all the tools necessary. But he refused an NFL contract offer a couple years ago to stay in Montreal. I believe S.J. Green did the same. Anyways, you will definitely see more CFLers crack an NFL roster every now and then, you just don't always hear about it.

I personally love the CFL (obviously). It's a different game and I can see why some people wouldn't like it but what I can't stand is people (Torontonians) dismissing it because of their big league mentality. A lot of these athletes are as good athletes as NFLers are. It's a league that's saved a lot of extremely talented individuals' careers by bringing them out of the oblivion and giving them a chance to succeed, and be recognized on the national (sometimes international) stage.
I'm not wasting my time with you if you really believe this nonsense. There is next to no elite football players in the CFL. It's further below the NFL in talent than the AHL is below the NHL in talent. Why can't you just admit that you're a fan of the league but the players aren't elite (by that I mean stars in the NFL). There's nothing wrong with that.

BTW, I live almost 300km northwest of Toronto so don't call me a Torontonian.

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12-21-2012, 12:34 PM
  #57
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The only way we will know for sure if an NFL team will work in Toronto or not is to put a team there under new ownership and see how it pans out overtime. If it works, great! If not, oh well!

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12-21-2012, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by DaaaaB's View Post
I'm not wasting my time with you if you really believe this nonsense. There is next to no elite football players in the CFL. It's further below the NFL in talent than the AHL is below the NHL in talent. Why can't you just admit that you're a fan of the league but the players aren't elite (by that I mean stars in the NFL). There's nothing wrong with that.

BTW, I live almost 300km northwest of Toronto so don't call me a Torontonian.
If I believe in what nonsense exactly?? I presented facts to support my claim that some football players are more successful in adapting to different styles of play/rules. Obviously, the NFL in general, consists of more talented athletes (Calvin Johnson would tear the league to shreds no doubt) but it doesn't change the fact that a few of these CFLers have as much talent as some of the top-end guys in the NFL.

You can't really compare the AHL to the CFL because it actually follows the same rules as the NHL (as opposed to the CFL in relation to the NFL). CFLers are smaller than NFLers, whereas AHLers are pretty much the same size as NHLers. CFLers are generally fairly old, so they are not as likely to get a shot with an NFL team as much as young AHLers are likely to get a shot in the NHL.
Anyway, no matter which way you cut it, the CFL is the second highest level of grid-iron football in the world.

You might not be a Torontonian but you are every bit as ignorant and as much of an American wannabe as all of them.

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12-21-2012, 01:07 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by The Man in White View Post
So did every other team after the 94 strike.
but Jays stayed down..

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12-21-2012, 01:13 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by LeafOfBread View Post
Rofl. Using numbers back to 2001, Raptors have averaged 11th. Leafs and Raptors are both in the upper half of their respective leagues. MLB we've lagged behind, but the Jays still have a solid fanbase which has recently started to grow especially due to Alex A's work. In game attendance has been poor, but they still maintain a good following otherwise and get decent TV ratings.

There are very few cities that can manage solid attendance and viewership for all 4 sports. Philadelphia for example, does well in the NHL and MLB, and their football team averages around 10-14 per year which is good too, but their NBA team, until recently, has been piss poor.
wasnt talkin about Leafs sir and the bolded seems a bit high, but still very poor since Leafs STH are forced to buy Raptors tickets. and also very poor since you are in what the 4th largest market? isnt that what Torontonians like to beat their chest about..

NFL would be the same.. in like a Lion out like a lamb.. then all the excuses will start team sucks, stadiums bad or in bad area etc etc

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12-21-2012, 01:50 PM
  #61
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Toronto hate-fests are always amusing. Most of these trolls have no clue about the sports culture here, lack attendance numbers, nor do they have any evidence to support their claims.

The Jays, Raptors and Leafs all have solid fanbases. Even the NLL and MLS garner support.

No one wants to pay outrageous sums of money to see the Buffalo Bills get slaughtered, and the Dome isn't a good arena for football. This also explains Argo attendance numbers. Plus, with traffic being amongst the worst in NA, fans from around the GTA can't be bothered to make the trip downtown to watch CFL games.

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12-21-2012, 02:06 PM
  #62
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All Canadians eventually resort to the "American-wannabe" tag. What the hell does that even mean?

It is a large city that boasts a diverse population, and tastes are diverse as a result.
If liking different sports alongside the CFL and hockey makes me more "American" relative to whatever insular outpost you live in, then so be it

I guess loving the city you're from is a sign of arrogance (if you're from Toronto that is), but every other urban centre in this country can beat their chests (civic pride is okay in this case)

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12-21-2012, 02:55 PM
  #63
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Everyone says they don't want to see the Bills play, but if you got a team, you damn well know it is going to be the Bills. Do you really think Goodell is going to open a brand new expansion team for you all? Please

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12-21-2012, 05:07 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Yourface View Post
If I believe in what nonsense exactly?? I presented facts to support my claim that some football players are more successful in adapting to different styles of play/rules. Obviously, the NFL in general, consists of more talented athletes (Calvin Johnson would tear the league to shreds no doubt) but it doesn't change the fact that a few of these CFLers have as much talent as some of the top-end guys in the NFL.

You can't really compare the AHL to the CFL because it actually follows the same rules as the NHL (as opposed to the CFL in relation to the NFL). CFLers are smaller than NFLers, whereas AHLers are pretty much the same size as NHLers. CFLers are generally fairly old, so they are not as likely to get a shot with an NFL team as much as young AHLers are likely to get a shot in the NHL.
Anyway, no matter which way you cut it, the CFL is the second highest level of grid-iron football in the world.

You might not be a Torontonian but you are every bit as ignorant and as much of an American wannabe as all of them.
And you're a typical "Western" hipster who thinks it's so uber cool to hate Toronto, am I right?

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Originally Posted by Bionda View Post
All Canadians eventually resort to the "American-wannabe" tag. What the hell does that even mean?

It is a large city that boasts a diverse population, and tastes are diverse as a result.
If liking different sports alongside the CFL and hockey makes me more "American" relative to whatever insular outpost you live in, then so be it

I guess loving the city you're from is a sign of arrogance (if you're from Toronto that is), but every other urban centre in this country can beat their chests (civic pride is okay in this case)
These people have nothing better to do, seriously. Get over the inferiority complex.

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Originally Posted by Ryan34222 View Post
wasnt talkin about Leafs sir and the bolded seems a bit high, but still very poor since Leafs STH are forced to buy Raptors tickets. and also very poor since you are in what the 4th largest market? isnt that what Torontonians like to beat their chest about..

NFL would be the same.. in like a Lion out like a lamb.. then all the excuses will start team sucks, stadiums bad or in bad area etc etc
Don't care if you weren't, I included the Raptors. And sweet backtracking bro, you were the one who said bottom half of each league, and then when I give you the actual number and prove you wrong, you shift your goal posts. Keep it up.

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12-21-2012, 05:48 PM
  #65
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Everyone says they don't want to see the Bills play, but if you got a team, you damn well know it is going to be the Bills. Do you really think Goodell is going to open a brand new expansion team for you all? Please
To be fair it's probably not just the quality of the team but simply the fact it's another city's team. If you relocate them and rebrand the team Toronto Toros or whatever you'd probably get more support.

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12-21-2012, 07:57 PM
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What do you not understand about the CFL not being popular in Ontario?

Vancouver struggles to support minor league baseball, I guess Vancouver's not a baseball. Do you see how dumb that sounds. I've talked to hundreds of people in Ontario about football and almost none of them like the CFL better than the NFL if they even like the CFL at all. I don't agree with this but it's thought of as a joke league in Ontario.
Vancouver does not struggle to support minor league baseball from a fan perspective. They've been breaking franchise attendance records in recent years and been far and away the tops of their league. Regardless no I would not categorize Vancouver as a baseball city, because the number of people who consider it their most favorite sport is small.

And this is clearly the same with what has happened with the Bills series in Toronto. You can make excuses all you want but guess what, people in many other parts of Canada who support the CFL think the NFL is better too, but they actually enjoy the sport and will watch it and pay money for it regardless.

The point I was making was that Toronto has not shown a willingness to do that at any level of football. CFL is a failure, Bills series is a failure, why should anyone believe that Toronto could legitimately support an NFL franchise when they haven't proven they can do it at any other level of the sport.

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12-21-2012, 08:14 PM
  #67
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Put some good teams playing in Toronto and fan interest will show up. The Bills haven't been relevant since the 1990's..if you put New England, New York Giants, Pittsburgh or even San Francisco..people would be loud and proud at Rogers Centre.

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12-21-2012, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by LeafOfBread View Post
And you're a typical "Western" hipster who thinks it's so uber cool to hate Toronto, am I right?



These people have nothing better to do, seriously. Get over the inferiority complex.


Don't care if you weren't, I included the Raptors. And sweet backtracking bro, you were the one who said bottom half of each league, and then when I give you the actual number and prove you wrong, you shift your goal posts. Keep it up.
The post you originally quoted said other than the Leafs.. It's actually the very first sentence..

If your numbers are correct, which I'll have to look. But lets use 11th. Sothe Raptors are 4 spots away from bottom half of league. Does that make you feel better?

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12-21-2012, 09:13 PM
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Everyone says they don't want to see the Bills play, but if you got a team, you damn well know it is going to be the Bills. Do you really think Goodell is going to open a brand new expansion team for you all? Please
Everyone understands this. It's just easier to use the its not our team excuse. If it was the Toronto Bills, it would be the stadium, if it was a new stadium it would be location.. And on and on.

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12-21-2012, 11:25 PM
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Vancouver struggles to support minor league baseball, I guess Vancouver's not a baseball.
Actually the Canadians do very well at the gate, even outdrawing a few Triple-A clubs. If not for our stadium I think we'd still have Triple-A.

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Put some good teams playing in Toronto and fan interest will show up. The Bills haven't been relevant since the 1990's..if you put New England, New York Giants, Pittsburgh or even San Francisco..people would be loud and proud at Rogers Centre.
They were playing arguably the hottest team in the NFL. led by a sure-fire Rookie of the Year nomination at QB and they couldn't even crack 41,000.


Last edited by Rocko604: 12-21-2012 at 11:42 PM.
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12-22-2012, 12:13 AM
  #71
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The post you originally quoted said other than the Leafs.. It's actually the very first sentence..

If your numbers are correct, which I'll have to look. But lets use 11th. Sothe Raptors are 4 spots away from bottom half of league. Does that make you feel better?
Keep arguing semantics my friend. That's all you have.

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12-22-2012, 12:56 AM
  #72
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Keep arguing semantics my friend. That's all you have.
The bottom half I was speaking of may have come from the percentage #'s. Seems they've been bottom half since 2006. With one exception a playoff year on 07? Where it went to 12.

I'm not sure what we are arguing about tbh. I said bottom half, you showed me they were just slightly above bottom half.
So to recap.
Raps just above bottom half
Jays in bottom half
Toronto FC still has the new car smell to them. good so far except bottom half last year, my guess it stays bottom half after the 10 year mark.
Arblos bad
Marlies bad.
Anything else?

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12-22-2012, 04:18 AM
  #73
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This Bills series has been a miserable failure and a serious miscalculation for Rogers.

By paying $78 million for 8 games (including 3 meaningless exhibition games) Rogers had to charge astronomical prices in order to break even. Turns out Torontonians weren't willing to pay any price to satisfy their thirst for the NFL. As a result, Rogers is bathing in red ink from this debacle.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is no extension of this series in 2013. Rogers might chalk it up to "unforseen circumstances" or some such nonsense in order to try and save face.

And boy, is it hard to save face when you can only sell 40000 seats in a 54000 seat facility at an average price of $99 (nearly half the $180 average from 4 years ago)...with reportedly thousands of those given away as freebies.

To those of you here who claim to use "logic" in your arguments in support of a Toronto NFL team, tell me, what reasons has the city provided to intrigue Roger Goodell and the owners. And no, silly comments like, "Oh, there are 5.5 million people in Toronto and 9 million in southern Ontario which will make it a surefire hit," don't cut the mustard.

The burden of proof lies with Toronto, but what have they proven? There has been tepid support for their own CFL team for the better part of 25 years with a few (years) exceptions. There has been the recent Bills-Toronto series plagued by embarrassing turnouts despite huge discounts and apparent widepread dispersal of free tickets.

This does not even cover the issue of an inadequate stadium..Rogers Centre has poor sightlines as several thousand seats are tarped off due to being too low to the ground..not to mention the fact the capacity of the stadium is found wanting...something an expansion of seating into the former hotel will not solve. Good luck finding someone to build you a stadium too as the feds have made it abundantly clear they are not in the business of funding pro sports stadiums. Considering the financial state of the province and the city don't look for any answers there either.

Then there is the issue of ownership. Who will own the team Toronto? The NFL has a policy against corporations owning teams so that eliminates Rogers as a potential suiter. Who else is there? I haven't heard any rumors about an individual interested in becoming an owner. Toronto's poor response to the Bills series might have scared off potential investors...

Back to the stadium and fan support, suppose a stadium could be built with the majority of it being funded privately. Do you think there are 50,000 Torontonians who will pay on average $15,000 - $20,000 for PSLs plus the ongoing yearly costs of $1000 per season ticket (on average) and $3000 - $4000 per club season ticket in the new stadium especially if the team is a perrenial non-playoff contender? Are there 150 corporations and/or wealthy individuals willing to pay $100,000 - $250000 PSL for a suite and the ongoing yearly costs of $100000+ for the privelege of watching the Toronto NFLers?

This are questions that need to be answered in a positive manner or at least there needs to be some positive momentum to resolve these issues if Toronto has any hope of getting an NFL team. Right now, arguably, London is seens as a more intriguing option to the commissioner and the owners. They have a suitable stadium, sellouts/near sellouts in a 85,000 seat facility and a population that dwarfs Toronto (10 million in London and 30 million or so within the southern area of the United Kingdom).

So Toronto, why should the league invest in your city? Do you have something substantive other than the population argument?

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12-22-2012, 08:46 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
This Bills series has been a miserable failure and a serious miscalculation for Rogers.

By paying $78 million for 8 games (including 3 meaningless exhibition games) Rogers had to charge astronomical prices in order to break even. Turns out Torontonians weren't willing to pay any price to satisfy their thirst for the NFL. As a result, Rogers is bathing in red ink from this debacle.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is no extension of this series in 2013. Rogers might chalk it up to "unforseen circumstances" or some such nonsense in order to try and save face.

And boy, is it hard to save face when you can only sell 40000 seats in a 54000 seat facility at an average price of $99 (nearly half the $180 average from 4 years ago)...with reportedly thousands of those given away as freebies.

To those of you here who claim to use "logic" in your arguments in support of a Toronto NFL team, tell me, what reasons has the city provided to intrigue Roger Goodell and the owners. And no, silly comments like, "Oh, there are 5.5 million people in Toronto and 9 million in southern Ontario which will make it a surefire hit," don't cut the mustard.

The burden of proof lies with Toronto, but what have they proven? There has been tepid support for their own CFL team for the better part of 25 years with a few (years) exceptions. There has been the recent Bills-Toronto series plagued by embarrassing turnouts despite huge discounts and apparent widepread dispersal of free tickets.

This does not even cover the issue of an inadequate stadium..Rogers Centre has poor sightlines as several thousand seats are tarped off due to being too low to the ground..not to mention the fact the capacity of the stadium is found wanting...something an expansion of seating into the former hotel will not solve. Good luck finding someone to build you a stadium too as the feds have made it abundantly clear they are not in the business of funding pro sports stadiums. Considering the financial state of the province and the city don't look for any answers there either.

Then there is the issue of ownership. Who will own the team Toronto? The NFL has a policy against corporations owning teams so that eliminates Rogers as a potential suiter. Who else is there? I haven't heard any rumors about an individual interested in becoming an owner. Toronto's poor response to the Bills series might have scared off potential investors...

Back to the stadium and fan support, suppose a stadium could be built with the majority of it being funded privately. Do you think there are 50,000 Torontonians who will pay on average $15,000 - $20,000 for PSLs plus the ongoing yearly costs of $1000 per season ticket (on average) and $3000 - $4000 per club season ticket in the new stadium especially if the team is a perrenial non-playoff contender? Are there 150 corporations and/or wealthy individuals willing to pay $100,000 - $250000 PSL for a suite and the ongoing yearly costs of $100000+ for the privelege of watching the Toronto NFLers?

This are questions that need to be answered in a positive manner or at least there needs to be some positive momentum to resolve these issues if Toronto has any hope of getting an NFL team. Right now, arguably, London is seens as a more intriguing option to the commissioner and the owners. They have a suitable stadium, sellouts/near sellouts in a 85,000 seat facility and a population that dwarfs Toronto (10 million in London and 30 million or so within the southern area of the United Kingdom).

So Toronto, why should the league invest in your city? Do you have something substantive other than the population argument?
You raise alot of good points. I do believe they would get the corporate support they require, plus they may be able attract corps from the U.S. who were unable to obtain the club or box seats which they may have wanted.

But you are right it all comes down to support. It is a pipe dream but it all has to start somewhere. Every team goes through rough patches. Lets take your bombers for example. Over 20 years ....... 20 YEARS without a championship in a 8 team league....Yet the support is still there and sellouts do occur do to the fact the team has been good at some points in history and people strive to relive that moment.
So lets say the Bills come to T.O.....attendance is dismal for the first 2-4years.. They make the playoffs..intrest peaks..after a few years of playoff performances their popularity and fanbase grows, matures, spreads as fans tend to pass it on through their families/sons/daughters....Its all a longterm process and not something that will be a sellout overnight. BUT it sounds like the NFL just wants an instent success which is unreasonable so your points all stand.

As for support for the CFL in the T.O. region. all my work associates out there watch and support the NFL...just not the Bills

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12-22-2012, 01:55 PM
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GKJ
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Said it before, and world be the case for anyone playing on a neutral field - it's not Toronto's team. People aren't going to support a team that is theirs. Toronto is a city to their own. They're not an outskirt of Buffalo.

Also doesn't help that the Bills are awful.

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