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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Lockout V: Take the Long Way Home

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Old
12-21-2012, 07:09 PM
  #651
CpatainCanuck
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Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
So Bettman is the greed? It was a really nice read until he took a side
Indeed. NHL players would still make a bigger percentage of league revenue than players in any of the other 3 major leagues in NA, even if Bettman's last offer was accepted unchanged. This seems to have escaped this writer.

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Old
12-21-2012, 07:14 PM
  #652
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Originally Posted by HockeyShack View Post
I bet that's photoshoped
Gary should just tell them. "You file a DOI, we will announce the season cancelled right after."

Mod...


Last edited by Killion: 12-21-2012 at 07:23 PM. Reason: not reqd...
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Old
12-21-2012, 07:20 PM
  #653
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Originally Posted by CpatainCanuck View Post
Indeed. NHL players would still make a bigger percentage of league revenue than players in any of the other 3 major leagues in NA, even if Bettman's last offer was accepted unchanged. This seems to have escaped this writer.
I just wish he would have kept it neutral, I think the players are to blame and would feel the same way if Greed had turned out to be Fehr.

Sometimes neutrality is worthwhile

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12-21-2012, 07:35 PM
  #654
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No surprise here. Bettman all along was going to cancell the season. He alone is responsible for initiating and dragging out this lockout with the aim to con the players out of their share. Now that Bill the Hill said that a season is going to happen we will soon see that that was a lie. When they meet Don Fehr, all Fehr has to do is sneeze and the league will profess that the deal, although "close" is off and the season is cancelled.

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Old
12-21-2012, 08:27 PM
  #655
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Think of it this way:

If the players "win", and get to make as much money as they desire for whatever length of time, limited/no restrictions, etc. Is that good for the players? Sure. But Is it good for all 30 teams? The league as a whole? The sport? No. Many teams may have to fold and whatever league that remains would probably be less competitive.

On the other hand, if the owners "win", they get 50/50, limits on contracts, etc. Is that good for the players? Sure it is. Game gets to grow, they continue to play elite hockey, still treated like royalty, get all the glory, make modest millions. The currently signed might lose out on some that was owed, future players contracts and player average might get stagnant and stop growing. Is that terrible? Hardly. And at the same time, that gives all 30 teams a chance to compete and grow financially. It brings more stability and certainty for future owners and other potential NHL cities. The sport canthen continue to grow in other ways too (internationally).

So which "winning" outcome is truly better for the FANS? The SPORT?

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12-21-2012, 08:38 PM
  #656
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It's funny, the players stand to lose roughly 1.5B and the owners lose less than one fifth of that, yet the owners are greedy?

Dear god. When will people (and most importantly, many of the NHL journos) get a clue?

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12-21-2012, 08:56 PM
  #657
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
It's funny, the players stand to lose roughly 1.5B and the owners lose less than one fifth of that, yet the owners are greedy?

Dear god. When will people (and most importantly, many of the NHL journos) get a clue?
NHL journalists depend on players for information, so of course there's going to be a PA bias in their reporting. Their management contacts probably don't care that much, but if they get ostracized from a dressing room that would be a real problem.

Having said that, both sides are greedy.

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12-21-2012, 08:56 PM
  #658
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motown Beatdown View Post
Hmmmm,

Jes Gölbez ‏@JesGolbez

So, http://NHL.com accidentally slips it that the season will be cancelled Jan 10th? http://i.imgur.com/zNpnT.png #NHL @wyshynski @Sean_Leahy
Retweeted by Kukla's Korner .com

Really? Trying to scare the NHLPA out of filing a DoI?

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Old
12-21-2012, 08:58 PM
  #659
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I'm glad things have gone quieter - it's nice not hearing about the lockout as much. I'm happy we'll have an end to the shenanigans soon, one way or the other

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Old
12-21-2012, 09:01 PM
  #660
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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
That's ridiculous. If the players had solely their own interests in mind, they would have caved long ago.

They're continuing the fight because their predecessors also made sacrifices in order to get salaries up to the current level. They're also continuing the precedent of having a strong union that will not roll over.
Oh come on. Let's not buy either side's B.S.

1994: players fight against cap, 'win', lose 1/2 season. They go on to make millions of dollars.

2005: players fight against cap, 'lose', lose season. They go on to make EVEN MORE millions of dollar than they had with 70% of revenue.

2012: players fight against 'bullying' and 'having their principles compromised'. Guess what? They're going to go on to make millions of dollars, even at 50% of revenue.

Please.

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Old
12-21-2012, 09:02 PM
  #661
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NHL hockey IS NOT like the other sports. The other three are popular in every nooks and crannies of the USA: not hockey ! It is still a REGIONAL sport in the US while it is THE National sport in Canada, a country 10 times smaller in population.
I was talking about the 50/50 split, do you not think that's a fair deal? Which do you think should have a bigger share of revenue in order to have a healthy league, the players or the owners?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
They're also continuing the precedent of having a strong union that will not roll over.
Interesting, they continue the precedent of a union that won't roll over by giving the authority to disband it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motown Beatdown View Post
Hmmmm,

Jes Gölbez ‏@JesGolbez

So, http://NHL.com accidentally slips it that the season will be cancelled Jan 10th?
Geez, I hope that's fake. Jan. 10th is my birthday. Cancel on the 9th or the 11th, just not the 10th!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Conflicted Habs fan View Post
No surprise here. Bettman all along was going to cancell the season. He alone is responsible for initiating and dragging out this lockout with the aim to con the players out of their share.
Have to wonder why the owners don't just fire him, then. If he's the only one who wants this lockout, they should just override him and get this deal done, don't you think?

But, just out of curiosity, how is 50/50 conning the players out of their share? How much of a "share" do you think they should get?

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Old
12-21-2012, 09:09 PM
  #662
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Originally Posted by Conflicted Habs fan View Post
He alone is responsible for initiating and dragging out this lockout with the aim to con the players out of their share.
What share? There is no CBA, they are fighting what the players' share will be. PA doesn't have some god given right to certain share of revenue.

If this was a true partnership, players would get 50% of the PROFITS, not revenue. Funny how players don't want a true partnership...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Conflicted Habs fan View Post
Now that Bill the Hill said that a season is going to happen we will soon see that that was a lie. When they meet Don Fehr, all Fehr has to do is sneeze and the league will profess that the deal, although "close" is off and the season is cancelled.
Mod...

Fehr is seemingly happy to make players lose 1.8B. Great leadership!


Last edited by Killion: 12-21-2012 at 10:32 PM. Reason: not reqd...
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Old
12-21-2012, 09:19 PM
  #663
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Originally Posted by Conflicted Habs fan View Post
Now that Bill the Hill said that a season is going to happen we will soon see that that was a lie.
Good Lord. The man was asked about this and said he gave that answer because he was only given two choices and he remains optimistic there will be a season.

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Old
12-21-2012, 09:22 PM
  #664
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
Have to wonder why the owners don't just fire him, then. If he's the only one who wants this lockout, they should just override him and get this deal done, don't you think?
See this is the thing that I don't think people understand. GB has his high and low moments. But every day that he has a job is a day that the owners have essentially voted for the lockout - or at least 75% of them.

Although Bettman has pull, and he only need 8 owners to veto a CBA, 8/29 = 28%

75% of 29 = 22

So to veto a deal, he could have 21 owners against him. But only 22 are needed to fire him. That one swing vote isn't a lot to hang your hat on. If there was even a small amount of dissent in the last decade or so, he would have been axed already.

I'm not saying you shouldn't have the opinion that GB should be fired. I personally disagree with you but it's a valid opinion. But calling for his firing when it probably isn't going to happen does make that opinion a bit of a fantasy.

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Old
12-21-2012, 09:28 PM
  #665
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See this is the thing that I don't think people understand. GB has his high and low moments. But every day that he has a job is a day that the owners have essentially voted for the lockout - or at least 75% of them.

Although Bettman has pull, and he only need 8 owners to veto a CBA, 8/29 = 28%

75% of 29 = 22

So to veto a deal, he could have 21 owners against him. But only 22 are needed to fire him. That one swing vote isn't a lot to hang your hat on. If there was even a small amount of dissent in the last decade or so, he would have been axed already.

I'm not saying you shouldn't have the opinion that GB should be fired. I personally disagree with you but it's a valid opinion. But calling for his firing when it probably isn't going to happen does make that opinion a bit of a fantasy.
I agree. I always forget to use the <sarcasm> smiley, sorry. Bettman's still around because the owners don't see any need or reason to fire him. No way he's solely responsible for the lockout or how long it has dragged on. Everyone's responsible - both sides.

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Old
12-21-2012, 09:33 PM
  #666
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
I agree. I always forget to use the <sarcasm> smiley, sorry. Bettman's still around because the owners don't see any need or reason to fire him. No way he's solely responsible for the lockout or how long it has dragged on. Everyone's responsible - both sides.
I was agreeing with you, actually lol.

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Old
12-21-2012, 09:46 PM
  #667
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Think of it this way:

If the players "win", and get to make as much money as they desire for whatever length of time, limited/no restrictions, etc. Is that good for the players? Sure. But Is it good for all 30 teams? The league as a whole? The sport? No. Many teams may have to fold and whatever league that remains would probably be less competitive.

On the other hand, if the owners "win", they get 50/50, limits on contracts, etc. Is that good for the players? Sure it is. Game gets to grow, they continue to play elite hockey, still treated like royalty, get all the glory, make modest millions. The currently signed might lose out on some that was owed, future players contracts and player average might get stagnant and stop growing. Is that terrible? Hardly. And at the same time, that gives all 30 teams a chance to compete and grow financially. It brings more stability and certainty for future owners and other potential NHL cities. The sport canthen continue to grow in other ways too (internationally).

So which "winning" outcome is truly better for the FANS? The SPORT?
Your descriprion of the players "win" is not based on any possible scenario that will occur from these "negotiations".
The players have no delusions about winning, they are just attempting to limit their losses.

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12-21-2012, 09:50 PM
  #668
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Your descriprion of the players "win" is not based on any possible scenario that will occur from these "negotiations".
So you admit that the NHLPA's ploy to dissolve the NHLPA is obviously a negotiating tactic and not an action done in good-faith?

I guess the NHL's lawsuit should be a slam dunk then.

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12-21-2012, 09:53 PM
  #669
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There is still one card Fehr could have up his sleeve, the redefinition of HRR. Sure the players went from 57-50% but many teams parking, concessions, leases... Are all manipulated to skew the revenue away from the players while still silently lining the owners pockets. If this goes to court and kills another year, have the US/CDN governments audit all teams real financial books. Now that would be a legacy for Fehr to leave behind. To show how much money these teams actually make, to atleast shed light on the system.

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Old
12-21-2012, 10:01 PM
  #670
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There is still one card Fehr could have up his sleeve, the redefinition of HRR. Sure the players went from 57-50% but many teams parking, concessions, leases... Are all manipulated to skew the revenue away from the players while still silently lining the owners pockets. If this goes to court and kills another year, have the US/CDN governments audit all teams real financial books. Now that would be a legacy for Fehr to leave behind. To show how much money these teams actually make, to atleast shed light on the system.
Player sponsorships and everything else they make off their name in hockey are then free game under HRR then too, no?

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12-21-2012, 10:09 PM
  #671
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Originally Posted by egd27 View Post
Your descriprion of the players "win" is not based on any possible scenario that will occur from these "negotiations".
The players have no delusions about winning, they are just attempting to limit their losses.
If they were interested in limiting their losses, they would be bargaining right now, and trying to get 50+ games instead of 48.

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12-21-2012, 10:30 PM
  #672
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If they were interested in limiting their losses, they would be bargaining right now, and trying to get 50+ games instead of 48.
How can they bargain with a group that says take it or leave it? It's not possible

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12-21-2012, 10:31 PM
  #673
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Player sponsorships and everything else they make off their name in hockey are then free game under HRR then too, no?
Every sponsor and market dollar they earn while endorsing the NHL yes i agree 100%. Im on neither side in this, against both. But players doing things without the need of league approval or showing the sheild should be the players money only. Just like the players dont get a peice of their owners pie when they do their own non NHL related things

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12-21-2012, 10:36 PM
  #674
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How can they bargain with a group that says take it or leave it? It's not possible
It's just posturing, as it is from the other side as well.

If it is impossible to bargain with a group that says take it or leave it, how is antitrust litigation supposed to work - when EVERY PREVIOUS CASE of antitrust was settled in negotiations, not the court of law?

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12-21-2012, 10:46 PM
  #675
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If they were interested in limiting their losses, they would be bargaining right now, and trying to get 50+ games instead of 48.
And who would they bargain with?

The guys that have given 3 or 4 "final" offers and then walked away from the table when the PA didn't jump at them?

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