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Old
12-20-2012, 07:02 PM
  #26
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
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Originally Posted by Bluesnatic27 View Post
I'm still trying for Morrow, but hey, that's just me
Given how badly the Pens need a shot threat at the point, I'd say you're barking up the wrong tree.

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12-21-2012, 10:53 AM
  #27
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As a Pens fan, I have absolutely no interest in acquiring Chris Stewart whether Orpik is removed from the proposal entirely. He's just not a player that the Penguins should be interested in. Not that we couldn't use a big, scoring winger...but we can't use Chris Stewart. More than a few teams are going to find that out over the course of his career.
Who do you want? Corey Perry?

The Pens won't give up the world/can't afford an elite winger, but a guy like Stewart might work in reality.

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12-21-2012, 03:50 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
Orpik and Stewart both had down years last year.
The difference is that Orpik's down year was due to playing with injuries. Besides, defensemen as a rule are more valuable that forwards. It would take a lot more than a 15 goal scorer to get Orpik. Guys like him are at a premium.

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12-21-2012, 06:13 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by limite View Post
The difference is that Orpik's down year was due to playing with injuries. Besides, defensemen as a rule are more valuable that forwards. It would take a lot more than a 15 goal scorer to get Orpik. Guys like him are at a premium.
Are you really trying to act like that's all Stewart is? He'd easily score 40 on the Pens.


Last edited by spiny norman: 12-21-2012 at 11:17 PM. Reason: not needed
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Old
12-21-2012, 07:37 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by limite View Post
The difference is that Orpik's down year was due to playing with injuries. Besides, defensemen as a rule are more valuable that forwards. It would take a lot more than a 15 goal scorer to get Orpik. Guys like him are at a premium.
Orpik is the kind of player on the verge of retirement. Much better solutions, if they are looking for a prime aged D that can handle tough minutes from the left side, would be someone like Klesla. Orpik is the kind of player that you should be able to pick off from waiver wire later this year, if and when some expendable players with significant contracts are released due to a new CBA. Not need to pay anything for him right now, when you can get one a dime a dozen when the new CBA is signed, for no asset and probably a smaller contract.

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12-21-2012, 08:12 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by limite View Post
The difference is that Orpik's down year was due to playing with injuries. Besides, defensemen as a rule are more valuable that forwards. It would take a lot more than a 15 goal scorer to get Orpik. Guys like him are at a premium.
I don't, I mean, do you, huh?

I don't know what is worse calling Stewart just a 15 goal scorer, or saying that an aging defenseman who had a down year would come at a premium.

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12-21-2012, 09:15 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by limite View Post
The difference is that Orpik's down year was due to playing with injuries. Besides, defensemen as a rule are more valuable that forwards. It would take a lot more than a 15 goal scorer to get Orpik. Guys like him are at a premium.
Malkin for Shattenkirk? #2C for you guys for a #2 defenseman for us. Remember, defensemen as a rule are more valuable.

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12-21-2012, 09:38 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Thallis View Post
Are you really trying to act like that's all Stewart is? He'd easily score 40 on the Pens.
Aw, that age-old argument. But I guess there is truth to it. Malkin did turn Ponikarovsky into a 50+ goal scorer.


Last edited by spiny norman: 12-21-2012 at 11:17 PM. Reason: qmep
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Old
12-21-2012, 09:54 PM
  #34
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I don't mean to make an argument about it, but Stewart did score 28 in 62 games, didn't he? I don't think it's too much to say that he could hit 40 with Crosby. Not easily, but he definitely could.

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12-21-2012, 09:56 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by letowskie View Post
Orpik is the kind of player on the verge of retirement. Much better solutions, if they are looking for a prime aged D that can handle tough minutes from the left side, would be someone like Klesla. Orpik is the kind of player that you should be able to pick off from waiver wire later this year, if and when some expendable players with significant contracts are released due to a new CBA. Not need to pay anything for him right now, when you can get one a dime a dozen when the new CBA is signed, for no asset and probably a smaller contract.
lol wtf did I just read?

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12-21-2012, 10:35 PM
  #36
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I don't mean to make an argument about it, but Stewart did score 28 in 62 games, didn't he? I don't think it's too much to say that he could hit 40 with Crosby. Not easily, but he definitely could.
He could, he could not. It is all up to him. But with the way it was word, it sounded like playing next to Crosby/Malkin is an automatic 40+ goals.

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12-21-2012, 10:41 PM
  #37
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Would love to see Orpik out of the Atlantic.

What a pain in the ass he is to play against

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Old
12-22-2012, 03:16 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Superunknown94 View Post
He could, he could not. It is all up to him. But with the way it was word, it sounded like playing next to Crosby/Malkin is an automatic 40+ goals.
Well 40 is a bit high in an NHL were solid goalies and defensive systems are winning out over all-out offense, but he benefits from a playmaker tremendously so I could definitely see him rebound to a 30g/per season guy. Where he'd have 1 or 2 years of luck and PP goals pushing him to the 40 mark. If Neal can succeed so well in that system Stewart should definitely pull it together and be more than a "15 goal scorer with commitment issues".

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12-22-2012, 03:38 AM
  #39
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Stewart vs. Orpik swap makes sense to me. I am a Pens fan, but I can confirm that the Pens are the one who has to be adding in this proposal. But I think both sides would benefit from a deal like this, Stewart could (COULD, not saying itīs 100%) definitely find that scoring touch in Pens system. Orpik didnīt have a great season but heīs not a type of player who is happy with that wild up-tempo style we were playing last year. He could still be rock solid stone under Hitch.

It depends on how much addition would be required to Orpik. I donīt consider that difference between them being = 1st rounder or prospect like Maatta/Despres/Dumoulin/Pouliot/Morrow/Bennett/Harrington.

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12-22-2012, 04:29 AM
  #40
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Then the Blues sling something back. Orpik isn't enough in my eyes, so I'd want one of those guys...It's really not that much to ask either really, considering who you'd be getting. The Blues have to get someone who could actually make the team, as their depth is pretty ridiculous.

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12-22-2012, 07:31 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Hunting View Post
Stewart vs. Orpik swap makes sense to me. I am a Pens fan, but I can confirm that the Pens are the one who has to be adding in this proposal. But I think both sides would benefit from a deal like this, Stewart could (COULD, not saying itīs 100%) definitely find that scoring touch in Pens system. Orpik didnīt have a great season but heīs not a type of player who is happy with that wild up-tempo style we were playing last year. He could still be rock solid stone under Hitch.

It depends on how much addition would be required to Orpik. I donīt consider that difference between them being = 1st rounder or prospect like Maatta/Despres/Dumoulin/Pouliot/Morrow/Bennett/Harrington.
I wouldn't add anything to Orpik. Stewart is no guarantee to produce in Pittsburgh, and if he doesn't, the Pens just acquired a scoring winger who can't score and isn't effective anywhere else in the line-up.

But most crucially, no team has ever gotten value for what a player might do in a different situation. St.Louis doesn't have an elite playmaker, so if they don't want to trade him for what he is rather than what people think he could be in Pittsburgh if everything pans out perfectly, they're going to have to hope he can return to form on the Blues without a superstar center feeding him gimmes.

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12-22-2012, 09:51 AM
  #42
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You could change a few words in your post and it would apply to Orpik...

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12-22-2012, 10:42 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by CarvinSigX View Post
You could change a few words in your post and it would apply to Orpik...
Nobody's arguing Orpik would all of a sudden become an elite player at his position if he were to switch teams.

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12-22-2012, 10:47 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superunknown94 View Post
Aw, that age-old argument. But I guess there is truth to it. Malkin did turn Ponikarovsky into a 50+ goal scorer.
Not Ponikarovsky, but I hear this guy has done pretty well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superunknown94 View Post
He could, he could not. It is all up to him. But with the way it was word, it sounded like playing next to Crosby/Malkin is an automatic 40+ goals.
It's partially playing next to Crosby, and also because Stewart is a near perfect fit for Pittsburgh's system. Not only would he not be the main guy on his line, it's an offensive, puck control oriented system that Stewart would thrive on. Stewart has already scored 29 goals twice in his career, it's no stretch of the imagination to say he'd score 40 playing next to the best player in the world, in a system that suits his strengths.

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12-22-2012, 11:55 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Thallis View Post
Not Ponikarovsky, but I hear this guy has done pretty well.
Neal did not score 15 goals in a season prior to joining Pittsburgh. He was scoring on pace for 30.

Quote:
It's partially playing next to Crosby, and also because Stewart is a near perfect fit for Pittsburgh's system. Not only would he not be the main guy on his line, it's an offensive, puck control oriented system that Stewart would thrive on. Stewart has already scored 29 goals twice in his career, it's no stretch of the imagination to say he'd score 40 playing next to the best player in the world, in a system that suits his strengths.
Considering how poorly Stewart performed last season and the fact that only 4 NHL players scored 40 goals last year, I sure as hell wouldn't trade for him betting on it.

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12-22-2012, 12:05 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Thallis View Post
Not Ponikarovsky, but I hear this guy has done pretty well.
Fascinating stuff for sure. Now, can you explain why Neal has flourished next to Malkin and Ponikarovsky didn't?


Quote:
It's partially playing next to Crosby, and also because Stewart is a near perfect fit for Pittsburgh's system. Not only would he not be the main guy on his line, it's an offensive, puck control oriented system that Stewart would thrive on. Stewart has already scored 29 goals twice in his career, it's no stretch of the imagination to say he'd score 40 playing next to the best player in the world, in a system that suits his strengths.
Stewart has all the tools to be an effective player, but he hasn't put it all together on a consistent basis. Putting him in Bylsma's system isn't gonna lead to instant success. In fact, it could result in quite the opposite. If he didn't bring a high energy game, he'd be relegated to the 4th line and get the occasional shift.

By the way, I'm not denying that he could score 40. I just don't think it is a guarantee.


Last edited by TheRollingPuck: 12-22-2012 at 12:20 PM.
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Old
12-22-2012, 12:12 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I wouldn't add anything to Orpik. Stewart is no guarantee to produce in Pittsburgh, and if he doesn't, the Pens just acquired a scoring winger who can't score and isn't effective anywhere else in the line-up.

But most crucially, no team has ever gotten value for what a player might do in a different situation. St.Louis doesn't have an elite playmaker, so if they don't want to trade him for what he is rather than what people think he could be in Pittsburgh if everything pans out perfectly, they're going to have to hope he can return to form on the Blues without a superstar center feeding him gimmes.
Stewart isn't just a 15 goal scorer and he has proven that. Stewart doesn't need an elite playmaker feeding him gimmes, and his stretch with Berglund when he came here proved that.

Stewart would thrive in a wide open, run n gun, rushing offensive system, as he has one of the best backhand shots in the game. He isn't just a player that bangs in the trash in front of the net. Last season he just didn't have his burst of speed like he use to and he never got comfortable. Since he didn't have any injuries that would have caused him to lose his burst, it is reasonable to think that he can easily get that back, which would have a major impact on his game.

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12-22-2012, 01:13 PM
  #48
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Stewart isn't just a 15 goal scorer and he has proven that. Stewart doesn't need an elite playmaker feeding him gimmes, and his stretch with Berglund when he came here proved that.
26 games doesn't prove much to me. He's had a much larger sample size of not being able to do anything without an elite playmaker in St.Louis.

Quote:
Stewart would thrive in a wide open, run n gun, rushing offensive system, as he has one of the best backhand shots in the game. He isn't just a player that bangs in the trash in front of the net. Last season he just didn't have his burst of speed like he use to and he never got comfortable. Since he didn't have any injuries that would have caused him to lose his burst, it is reasonable to think that he can easily get that back, which would have a major impact on his game.
That's an oversimplification, IMHO. Stewart also has trouble with the cycle game (which the Pens put a pretty big emphasis on), and more than a few scoring wingers have found themselves relegated to the 4th line under Bylsma if they don't bring the requisite work ethic. It's hardly a "can't lose" proposition.

He may well re-find his scoring touch. If you think he can do it without an elite center in St.Louis, you'd best be served hanging onto him, because no responsible GM is going to give "30 goal scorer value" for a guy who underperformed like Stewart did last season. I'd sure be upset if mine did.

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12-22-2012, 01:30 PM
  #49
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Who do you want? Corey Perry?

The Pens won't give up the world/can't afford an elite winger, but a guy like Stewart might work in reality.
It's not about Corey Perry or Chris Stewart. It's just about Chris Stewart. The Penguins organization - as far as I know - would not have such a player in their ranks. You see players like Stewart every once in a while...fine goal-scorer, can actually do some damage on fine days...scoresheet and vitals say that he's of quality and competence and desire, but the people in the business have other ideas. He'll get passed around from team to team, each successor club thinks that they'll be the ones to reel him in, or they have a coach or a teammate that they think he'll work with and for, but it never really comes fruition...he never delivers on his fullest potential...

He'll probably do his best work on bad or loose teams, if there's ever another league expansion, he'll be there...but when it's time for a serious team to get serious, Stewart (barring the ever-discussed, ever-banked on turnaround) will be pushed to the margins or pushed to the next stop...

Whether you believe that or not, I don't mind, I would be skeptical too. But as a Penguins fan, I have no interest in him. There are hungrier players out there that are determined to get better, to be an active part of the solution that the Pens could do better with. Even if they aren't as talented.

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12-22-2012, 01:36 PM
  #50
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I've always liked Orpik but I think we're nuts if we think we can get better value for him than Stewart. The lockout may give Orpik some respite but he'll be 33 next fall and has had recurring groin issues that already required two surgeries. At his age and with the style he plays he is probably going to break down in a few years.

Chris Stewart on the other hand hasn't really put it all together but he's seven years younger and fills a big need on the Pens. Kunitz, Dupuis and Cooke are getting on in years and/or will be UFAs and Kennedy is meh. Our only power winger prospect is Tangradi. And he's only 15 months younger than Stewart and hasn't really done **** in the NHL while the latter has had two 28 goal seasons before his down year.

I think the value is absolutely fair, and I have no problem at all with Stewart. The one thing I'm worried about is how we'd replace Orpik's physicality on the back end.

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