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Lockout V: Take the Long Way Home

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Old
12-21-2012, 10:48 PM
  #676
Freudian
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Originally Posted by Motown Beatdown View Post
How can they bargain with a group that says take it or leave it? It's not possible
How can they bargain with a group that says they'll take the good stuff and leave the not so good stuff? It's not possible.

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Old
12-21-2012, 11:56 PM
  #677
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It seems pretty obvious mid-January is about the end, but who is that guy?
EricOnSportsLaw = TSN's law consultant (been writing about one article/week and/or when there's been a major legal milestone)

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12-22-2012, 12:51 AM
  #678
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Every sponsor and market dollar they earn while endorsing the NHL yes i agree 100%. Im on neither side in this, against both. But players doing things without the need of league approval or showing the sheild should be the players money only. Just like the players dont get a peice of their owners pie when they do their own non NHL related things
Anything they use their name for should be counted, if they want parking and other things included. Free Skates, Sticks etc from Bauer or Easton, all of that should be included.

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12-22-2012, 01:37 AM
  #679
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Anything they use their name for should be counted, if they want parking and other things included. Free Skates, Sticks etc from Bauer or Easton, all of that should be included.
Unless the nhl mandates all players wear a certain manufactuers equipment how are they supposed to have a say in which equipment company hands out what to who. Oh you wear new bauer skates? Those are lasts years model, try these free ccm skates and see if you like them. Same thing with eqipment, especially goalie stuff. Fans and young players see what stuff their favourite players are wearing and buy accordingly. Thats not the nhls problem. Thats capitalisms problem

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12-22-2012, 06:37 AM
  #680
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Dater: Fehr counseled players not to accept NHL's offer

Fehr had a $300 million “make whole” offer from the owners a couple weeks ago in New York, and I’ll definitely go to my grave right now in saying players wanted to take it and start playing hockey. But he counseled the players against it – according to my sources – and then Bettman threw a hissy fit and we are where we are.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2012...as-gary/12050/

2 weeks ~ 7.5% of salary. Will players ever get that back?

I'll wait for Ron Hainsey to explain that one.

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12-22-2012, 06:43 AM
  #681
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In this system a team like Edmonton, Pittsburgh, ect. tank for several years so they can draft and develop a winning team only to have that team broken up as soon as it has success. As soon as any of those high picks hit free agency they are bound to be broken up and evenly distributed. It makes sustained success highly improbable. Why would I want to support a league where failure is the price for success? In a cap free league the draft order is the same. The worst teams get the highest picks. They are rewarded for their failure and lifted up. The difference is that the owner that made smart decisions and therefore made money, can spend some of that money to sustain quality without having to tank every few years. When even the best revenue generating franchises aren't good their revenue drops. Being that they make the higher percentage of revenue that drop costs the league overall.
Last time I looked Pittsburgh pretty much had the core of their championship team in place. Would they be better off if they had to deal with $25M per year offers for Crosby and Malkin.

The Oilers just signed Eberle and Hall to 5 and 6 year deals. Under this sysytem it is very unlikely that they would lose any of their core players to FA because they could not afford to sign them. And they won't lose any because they don't have the cap space. Contrast that with what happened to the Oilers in the late 80's where one of the best teams of all time was systematicaly dismantled because other team were able to offer their stars far more than they could.

People look at what happened to Chicago and automatically think that success can only be short-lived under this system. In my mind that assumption stems from a complete lack of understanding of what happened to the Hawks.

It is also interesting to me that you equate franchise revenue with smart decisions. I guess that this would mean that the Leafs have been incredibly astute in their on ice moves because they most certainly make the most money.

Nashville is an example of a team that has had a fair bit of success on the ice without really high draft picks and without the ability to attract high priced free agents. Suter chose to move on and of course we know what happend with Weber. Within this system the Preds could actually have managed financially to keep these two. In your system they would have lost both almost for sure. Thier management has done a superb job of putting together a quality product within this system.

Similar things can be said of the way Pheonix has been run of late. Their fiscal situation is a nightmare but they have compenstated by making the right moves within this framework.

St. Louis is another example of an excellent young hockey team that has been built through the draft, but not by repeated tanking. Do you think that "smart decisions" could defend against teams offering the moon to a guy like Pietrangelo?

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Old
12-22-2012, 07:45 AM
  #682
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Read LeBrun's recent article outlining the many differences that need to be bridged between the sides. Forget the spin. The NHL and NHlPA are not close. For example, the owners want a 50-50 spilt plus $300 million make whole. The players want $300 million make whole plus a guaranteed floor of $67.5 million ( in 2011-12 the floor was $65 million per season) migrating to 50-50 in seasons when that spilt exceeds $67.5 million per team. There are 10 other issues where the divide is as great.

It is a basic axiom of negotiations that the parties need to reduce the issues to a handful in order to be able to wrap it up. The general strategy is to negotiate away the small issues first. Here Fehr's strategy is the opposite. He continuously interjects new issues and declines to negotiate away the smaller issues. This is generally the strategy pursued by a party that has most of the leverage. The end game of this strategy is to wait until the deadline and then watch the weaker party fold.

From where I am sitting, Fehr appears to have made a major miscalculation. This is not the 1970's. The NBAPA, a much stronger association in a much more prominent sport, failed to achieve anything close to what Fehr is attempting. Fehr has managed to do a good job uniting the players behind him, but I fear that they are now on a course to follow him off a cliff.

As for me, I am glad my buddies and me kept our NBA tickets. As for NHL hockey, it appears it will soon be season cancelled.


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12-22-2012, 08:11 AM
  #683
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So the league offered to make whole and Fehr recommended the players not accept the offer yet the rest of the blog is an attack on Bettman.

The NHLPA gets no sympathy from me.

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12-22-2012, 10:39 AM
  #684
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Originally Posted by SufferingCatFan View Post
Read LeBrun's recent article outlining the many differences that need to be bridged between the sides. Forget the spin. The NHL and NHlPA are not close. For example, the owners want a 50-50 spilt plus $300 million make whole. The players want $300 million make whole plus a guaranteed floor of $67.5 million ( in 2011-12 the floor was $65 million per season) migrating to 50-50 in seasons when that spilt exceeds $67.5 million per team. There are 10 other issues where the divide is as great.

It is a basic axiom of negotiations that the parties need to reduce the issues to a handful in order to be able to wrap it up. The general strategy is to negotiate away the small issues first. Here Fehr's strategy is the opposite. He continuously interjects new issues and declines to negotiate away the smaller issues. This is generally the strategy pursued by a party that has most of the leverage. The end game of this strategy is to wait until the deadline and then watch the weaker party fold.

From where I am sitting, Fehr appears to have made a major miscalculation. This is not the 1970's. The NBAPA, a much stronger association in a much more prominent sport, failed to achieve anything close to what Fehr is attempting. Fehr has managed to do a good job uniting the players behind him, but I fear that they are now on a course to follow him off a cliff.

As for me, I am glad my buddies and me kept our NBA tickets. As for NHL hockey, it appears it will soon be season cancelled.
Which is why it is a farce when they keep spewing the 50/50. They should be saying "We gave them 50/50 in year 4". It's just a part of Fehr and his delay tactics.

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12-22-2012, 11:12 AM
  #685
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Which is why it is a farce when they keep spewing the 50/50. They should be saying "We gave them 50/50 in year 4". It's just a part of Fehr and his delay tactics.
Indeed. And I wonder why nobody of the mainstream NHL media calls them out on that. NHLPA never offered 50/50, they offered something that COULD result in 50/50 in the future.

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12-22-2012, 02:10 PM
  #686
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And who would they bargain with?

The guys that have given 3 or 4 "final" offers and then walked away from the table when the PA didn't jump at them?
Ok, so what is DOI supposed to do then? If the situation is already that intractable, why even waste possibly millions of INDIVIDUAL PLAYER's money with antitrust?

An antitrust lawsuit will NEVER be fought to completion. It has always (NBA,NFL) just forced more negotiation. Therefore there IS room to move. You just want to take the easy road of painting the NHL as 'negotiating in bad faith'.

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12-22-2012, 02:11 PM
  #687
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Indeed. And I wonder why nobody of the mainstream NHL media calls them out on that. NHLPA never offered 50/50, they offered something that COULD result in 50/50 in the future.
Player bias. Even TSN/Sportsnet if they own the Leafs, the reporters still have to be chummy with the players - the parent company can't really make the players talk to the reporters.

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12-22-2012, 03:03 PM
  #688
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Indeed. And I wonder why nobody of the mainstream NHL media calls them out on that. NHLPA never offered 50/50, they offered something that COULD result in 50/50 in the future.
actually it could be 80/20 players if revenues go down due to the lock-out. there offers are not real offers that anyone would accept.

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12-22-2012, 03:51 PM
  #689
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Fehr had a $300 million “make whole” offer from the owners a couple weeks ago in New York, and I’ll definitely go to my grave right now in saying players wanted to take it and start playing hockey. But he counseled the players against it – according to my sources – and then Bettman threw a hissy fit and we are where we are.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2012...as-gary/12050/

2 weeks ~ 7.5% of salary. Will players ever get that back?

I'll wait for Ron Hainsey to explain that one.
That is brutal if true. Although the players should still take the blame since they werent forced to agree with Fehr.

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12-22-2012, 04:10 PM
  #690
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Fehr had a $300 million “make whole” offer from the owners a couple weeks ago in New York, and I’ll definitely go to my grave right now in saying players wanted to take it and start playing hockey. But he counseled the players against it – according to my sources – and then Bettman threw a hissy fit and we are where we are.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2012...as-gary/12050/

2 weeks ~ 7.5% of salary. Will players ever get that back?

I'll wait for Ron Hainsey to explain that one.
Yawn. If the players were so gung-ho on that deal, they would have told Fehr they wanted to take it instead of giving him 97% support to go the disclaimer of interest route.

And the $300m isn't really the main issue at this point...

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12-22-2012, 05:02 PM
  #691
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It's just posturing, as it is from the other side as well.

If it is impossible to bargain with a group that says take it or leave it, how is antitrust litigation supposed to work - when EVERY PREVIOUS CASE of antitrust was settled in negotiations, not the court of law?
The threat of antitrust forces the other side to do everything possible to get a deal done. That's why the players filed. Courts don't recognize "hills they we will die on", especially when those hills are arbitrary and don't even effect your business significantly.

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12-22-2012, 05:06 PM
  #692
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The threat of antitrust forces the other side to do everything possible to get a deal done. That's why the players filed. Courts don't recognize "hills they we will die on", especially when those hills are arbitrary and don't even effect your business significantly.
Has the DOI actually been filed? I've managed to miss that news if that's the case.

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12-22-2012, 05:10 PM
  #693
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Has the DOI actually been filed? I've managed to miss that news if that's the case.
They've started the process but haven't filed, you're right, I misspoke. The players don't want to file, they want a partner to bargain with.

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12-22-2012, 05:15 PM
  #694
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They've started the process but haven't filed, you're right, I misspoke. The players don't want to file, they want a partner to bargain with.
So does the league. Now they just have to each swallow their pride and do it.

I think they should each write down what movement they're willing to make. Put those lists in sealed envelopes. Have a meeting and hand the envelopes to each other at the exact same second. Open them at the exact same second. That way neither side shows "weakness" by making the first move.

Just get it done, fer cryin' out loud.

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12-22-2012, 05:16 PM
  #695
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That is brutal if true. Although the players should still take the blame since they werent forced to agree with Fehr.
i'm sure they seen what happened to Hamrlik for not agreeing with Fehr. He was publicly condemmed, I'm sure behind closed doors Fehr has to get guys like Hainsy to keep the foot soldiers in line.

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12-22-2012, 05:23 PM
  #696
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So does the league. Now they just have to each swallow their pride and do it.

I think they should each write down what movement they're willing to make. Put those lists in sealed envelopes. Have a meeting and hand the envelopes to each other at the exact same second. Open them at the exact same second. That way neither side shows "weakness" by making the first move.

Just get it done, fer cryin' out loud.
I don't know how you can look at what the owners have done and said and come to that conclusion. They are drawing lines in the sand and threatening to die on hills, they don't want someone to bargain with, they want someone that will accept their demands.

The league could have kept negotiations going and instead huffed and puffed about the players altering an agreement that they made clear was take it or leave it. That is not negotiating.

Despite my player bias I can acknowledge that the PA has chosen to drag their feet and slow down the process, why can't the other side acknowledge that the league has slowed the process by failing again and again to get involved in any real negotiations?

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12-22-2012, 05:28 PM
  #697
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This line is getting as good as the "this is a lockout not a strike"

What that really means is if the players keep pushing until the league says no more and won't give in anymore that means "they arn't negotiating" At some point the league had to put a stop to Fehrs games, i hope they stick to their guns.
What gives the owners the right to say no more but not the players? Both sides need to be willing to give and take to get a deal done.

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12-22-2012, 05:38 PM
  #698
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What gives the owners the right to say no more but not the players? Both sides need to be willing to give and take to get a deal done.
The owners need a deal that will give them a chance to make money and to make sure that holes are plugged so the CBA can last another decade so we don't have to go through this crap again. That's why it's more the a "give and take" and "meet in the middle" The owners went for a deal when Bettman and Fehr wern't there a couple weeks ago and were very serious about getting it done. but when Fehr came back in the "meet in the middle" and give and take changed again.

Fehr wants the league to give and him to take or it's not negotiating.

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12-22-2012, 05:41 PM
  #699
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I don't know how you can look at what the owners have done and said and come to that conclusion. They are drawing lines in the sand and threatening to die on hills, they don't want someone to bargain with, they want someone that will accept their demands.

The league could have kept negotiations going and instead huffed and puffed about the players altering an agreement that they made clear was take it or leave it. That is not negotiating.

Despite my player bias I can acknowledge that the PA has chosen to drag their feet and slow down the process, why can't the other side acknowledge that the league has slowed the process by failing again and again to get involved in any real negotiations?
Seriously, can you give us a list of things that the players have given up aside from the mythical 50/50 that they've proposed?

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12-22-2012, 05:49 PM
  #700
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The owners need a deal that will give them a chance to make money and to make sure that holes are plugged so the CBA can last another decade so we don't have to go through this crap again. That's why it's more the a "give and take" and "meet in the middle" The owners went for a deal when Bettman and Fehr wern't there a couple weeks ago and were very serious about getting it done. but when Fehr came back in the "meet in the middle" and give and take changed again.

Fehr wants the league to give and him to take or it's not negotiating.
If they were serious about getting it done they would have waited around for the players response and kept negotiating. They didn't. They made a take it or leave it offer and walked away. That is a fact.

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Seriously, can you give us a list of things that the players have given up aside from the mythical 50/50 that they've proposed?
It's not mythical at all, if the owners do their job and grow their business they stand to make 100's of millions more with this proposal than the last.

The players have also conceded some contract rights and some sort of variance.

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