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Johan Franzen - Third Highest Goal Scorer Of 2004 Draft

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Old
12-21-2012, 09:01 PM
  #26
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Yeah, I am going to listen to Boudreau over Babcock, the guy who put him on the third line.

He took shifts off like it was an exhibition game.

That video didnt really make me see Franzen in a better light. He was frustrated and making bad plays. Bring back Brad May and he can do just as good a job as Franzen did in that video.

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12-21-2012, 10:32 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Amen Bench. He also does it for just a 3.95 million cap hit.
I'm consistently baffled by people (looking at you, Captain Robert) who think Franzen is an incredible player who is taking nights off. He's got scoring touch and a good drive to the net.

The idea that he's good enough to coast some games but "turn it on" to score 30 goals is wild. Particularly when he's been fighting injury most seasons. So he's so talented, he can tank games, but decide when to play great, score a bunch of goals, all while being injured or threat of injury looms.

There are players that can do that. I've listed them before. There's no way I'd ever put Franzen in that group of elite talent that can half-ass their way to being a top 30 goal scorer year in, year out.

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12-21-2012, 10:43 PM
  #28
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Franzen 3rd? Talk about a weak draft.....

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12-22-2012, 12:25 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by 13 HockeyTown 40 View Post
Make sure you listen to Boudreau at the end:



I'm not defending his stupid penalties (especially the spearing) but how do you call that lazy? They're down 2 goals and Franzy is busting his ass out there.

The blind hate for the guy is getting a little ridiculous, reading this thread makes it sound like Franzen just takes a **** on the ice while everyone else is playing.
If that was a big Canadian, someone like Shane Doan, people would be tripping over themselves to say how that's tough, gritty, good hockey.

The problem with Franzen is he has flashes of brilliance. Sometimes he can dangle like crazy, has a laser wrister, will crash the net, backcheck... but then he'll be the complete opposite for a while.

He's just not a good enough hockey player to put it all together every game. Guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg have a few off games a year because they are some of the best in the world. Franzen is still a very good hockey player all things considered, but there are quite a few guys who have talent, but aren't good enough to use it every game.

For 4mil I think he brings enough to the table. The only thing is that when he's not scoring, he needs to play hard. That has nothing to do with what I said above and sometimes he is lazy above all else.

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12-22-2012, 12:29 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
I'm consistently baffled by people (looking at you, Captain Robert) who think Franzen is an incredible player who is taking nights off. He's got scoring touch and a good drive to the net.

The idea that he's good enough to coast some games but "turn it on" to score 30 goals is wild. Particularly when he's been fighting injury most seasons. So he's so talented, he can tank games, but decide when to play great, score a bunch of goals, all while being injured or threat of injury looms.

There are players that can do that. I've listed them before. There's no way I'd ever put Franzen in that group of elite talent that can half-ass their way to being a top 30 goal scorer year in, year out.
I don't care that he has scoring inconsistency. I care that when he's not scoring, he's floating. He doesn't work hard enough. He gives the puck away too often and he doesn't fight hard enough to get the puck back. He doesn't pass well and use his linemates well. He's a *****cat for someone with his size/weight.

The other problem isn't just inconsistent. Goal scorers are streaky. But the last couple years, Franzen has had enormous dry spells -- especially in the second half.

It's worth noting that Franzen's playoff production has declined quite a bit.

In 08, he was "unconscious". Scoring 13 goals in 16 games (and having to sit out in the middle of his streak because of concussion.
In 09, he scored 12 goals in 23 games.
in 10, he scored six goals in 12 games
in 11, he scored two goals in eight games
in 12, he scored one goal in five games.

I started criticizing Franzen in 10, when he put up the worst 1.5 PPG performance in the history of mankind. His defense was directly responsible for goals against. He scored 4 of his six goals in one game, IIRC., And otherwise he scored lots of secondary assists.

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12-22-2012, 03:00 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I don't care that he has scoring inconsistency. I care that when he's not scoring, he's floating. He doesn't work hard enough. He gives the puck away too often and he doesn't fight hard enough to get the puck back. He doesn't pass well and use his linemates well. He's a *****cat for someone with his size/weight.
You think he's not trying or "floating."

I think he's just not good enough to be this all-around superstar people believe he should be.

I guess if I put Franzen on the pedestal after his playoff heroics I'd probably be upset too. But I thought he was always overachieving and coming through in the clutch. I never, ever expected him to be the Wings leading goal scorer several years running. But here we are.

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12-22-2012, 04:07 AM
  #32
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I think he's just not good enough to be this all-around superstar people believe he should be.
Based on what? Guy has size and skill. Can shoot better than the most. He is not a bad skater. He has pretty much all the attributes that one wishes. He is pretty much prime Todd Bertuzzi based on his attributes. But in reality he is nowhere near that level.

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12-22-2012, 04:45 AM
  #33
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Based on what? Guy has size and skill. Can shoot better than the most. He is not a bad skater. He has pretty much all the attributes that one wishes. He is pretty much prime Todd Bertuzzi based on his attributes. But in reality he is nowhere near that level.
I think this is wishful thinking that he should be as good as Bert in his hay day.

If the standard for Franzen is "be in the running for the scoring title" like Bertuzzi was, then yeah, there's going to be some disappointment.

Seems Khan as picked up on this:
http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index....port_stre.html

Weaknesses: For his size and skill set, he should be one of the game's premier power forwards. But he takes too many nights off where he makes little impact. Needs to play with more intensity on a consistent basis. Despite his size and strength, he gets roughed up a lot, and he doesn't dish it out enough.

I guess I don't get it. If he truly did all of those things asked of him, wouldn't he be a clockwork 70-80 point player in the same class as Kovalchuk, Gaborik, and Iginla? I don't see Franzen's game as anywhere near those guys. If he can throw up nearly 60 points a year while taking nights off and having little intensity, really trying his ass off should be good for another 10 or 15 points right? Rick Nash is considered a premier power forward. The stats are almost identical the last few seasons, though.


Last edited by Bench: 12-22-2012 at 05:10 AM.
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12-22-2012, 05:49 AM
  #34
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He just strikes me as an odd guy. Basically he doesn't give a crap if the game doesn't mean anything, save for a few stretches every regular season. In the playoffs or with the National team he's another player. If he had the work ethics of Pavel or Z he would be a $6M player too.

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12-22-2012, 07:38 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bench View Post
You think he's not trying or "floating."

I think he's just not good enough to be this all-around superstar people believe he should be.

I guess if I put Franzen on the pedestal after his playoff heroics I'd probably be upset too. But I thought he was always overachieving and coming through in the clutch. I never, ever expected him to be the Wings leading goal scorer several years running. But here we are.
Someone of his size and skating ability should be a hard player to play against even when they aren't scoring.

That's not about skill. That's about work ethic and drive.

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12-22-2012, 07:43 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Someone of his size and skating ability should be a hard player to play against even when they aren't scoring.

That's not about skill. That's about work ethic and drive.
Seems to me I have never once heard another player say that about him. This he is easy to play against and lazy only comes from our fanbase. Now I don't expect not to see it in 10 to 15 games a season, most guys have about that many off nights even your all effort guys. He plays a lot harder than he gets credit for.

I do think he and Babcock have some problem going on. His comments about not having fun bothered me at the end of last year.

As pointed out though if he played like all of you wanted he would make 6+ million. He earns his salary.

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12-22-2012, 07:48 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
I think this is wishful thinking that he should be as good as Bert in his hay day.

If the standard for Franzen is "be in the running for the scoring title" like Bertuzzi was, then yeah, there's going to be some disappointment.

Seems Khan as picked up on this:
http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index....port_stre.html

Weaknesses: For his size and skill set, he should be one of the game's premier power forwards. But he takes too many nights off where he makes little impact. Needs to play with more intensity on a consistent basis. Despite his size and strength, he gets roughed up a lot, and he doesn't dish it out enough.

I guess I don't get it. If he truly did all of those things asked of him, wouldn't he be a clockwork 70-80 point player in the same class as Kovalchuk, Gaborik, and Iginla? I don't see Franzen's game as anywhere near those guys. If he can throw up nearly 60 points a year while taking nights off and having little intensity, really trying his ass off should be good for another 10 or 15 points right? Rick Nash is considered a premier power forward. The stats are almost identical the last few seasons, though.
Even if he was a 28G 28A guy...I just want to see the level of engagement. The legs chugging. The hits finished etc.

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12-22-2012, 07:50 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Seems to me I have never once heard another player say that about him. This he is easy to play against and lazy only comes from our fanbase. Now I don't expect not to see it in 10 to 15 games a season, most guys have about that many off nights even your all effort guys. He plays a lot harder than he gets credit for.

I do think he and Babcock have some problem going on. His comments about not having fun bothered me at the end of last year.

As pointed out though if he played like all of you wanted he would make 6+ million. He earns his salary.
Franzen's level of play and interest dropped after 2008-09.

He began his lifetime deal and started coasting. Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not.

This nonsense about him being a $6M player... He signed his $4m cap hit deal with less than 100 goals to his name. That year he scored 34 goals in 71 games... about a 40-goal pace.

You guys are making excuses for poor performance, plain and simple.

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12-22-2012, 10:38 AM
  #39
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Guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg have a few off games a year because they are some of the best in the world.
No. There are plenty of guys on the team that "don't put it together every game" that I think still work their butts off. Helm. Miller. Filp. You can tell when a guy is working hard. And a good number of the Wings players are always working hard even if they aren't scoring. Filp's biggest problem has always been his lack of killer instinct. He seems afraid to shoot. But he's never ever lazy.

Franzen? He gets lazy.

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12-22-2012, 01:48 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
You think he's not trying or "floating."

I think he's just not good enough to be this all-around superstar people believe he should be.

I guess if I put Franzen on the pedestal after his playoff heroics I'd probably be upset too. But I thought he was always overachieving and coming through in the clutch. I never, ever expected him to be the Wings leading goal scorer several years running. But here we are.
You honestly thought this?

Obviously Ken Holland didnt share your opinion since he opted to sign Franzen INSTEAD of Hossa. You think he let Hossa walk so we could keep an over-achiever at a discount and play him, according to you, above his head on the top line. If Lupul can net 25 in 66 games being put on a line with Kessel, then Franzen should do better than 28 in more games on a line with Pavel Dats-freakin'-yuk. Even if he's over-achieving like Lupul. Difference is work ethic. Lupul is trying to prove he can stay there. Franzen got the contract and is resting on laurels.

Clearly Holland thought Franzen would keep it up. It's the Red Wing way to bust your ass. If he didn't think Franzen was going to be consistently good he'd have kept Hossa, no brainer. Hossa for 5.5 or Franzen for 4.5? Hossa all day no brainer, because even if he's not scoring, he's busting his ass in other areas.

Franzen should be doing better than he is given who's feeding him and his ice-time. No reason at all he should be a LOCK for 30 AT LEAST and pushing for 40.


And for the record, Nash had Derrick Brassard centering him against teams who's strategy against the Jackets was "shut-down Nash". And Nash matched Franzen's stats.

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12-22-2012, 03:39 PM
  #41
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You honestly thought this?

Obviously Ken Holland didnt share your opinion since he opted to sign Franzen INSTEAD of Hossa. You think he let Hossa walk so we could keep an over-achiever at a discount and play him, according to you, above his head on the top line. If Lupul can net 25 in 66 games being put on a line with Kessel, then Franzen should do better than 28 in more games on a line with Pavel Dats-freakin'-yuk. Even if he's over-achieving like Lupul. Difference is work ethic. Lupul is trying to prove he can stay there. Franzen got the contract and is resting on laurels.

Clearly Holland thought Franzen would keep it up. It's the Red Wing way to bust your ass. If he didn't think Franzen was going to be consistently good he'd have kept Hossa, no brainer. Hossa for 5.5 or Franzen for 4.5? Hossa all day no brainer, because even if he's not scoring, he's busting his ass in other areas.

Franzen should be doing better than he is given who's feeding him and his ice-time. No reason at all he should be a LOCK for 30 AT LEAST and pushing for 40.


And for the record, Nash had Derrick Brassard centering him against teams who's strategy against the Jackets was "shut-down Nash". And Nash matched Franzen's stats.
Round and round we go.
Franzen vs Hossa... Again. The great Red Wing myth?
And earlier I already addressed that critics point to his stats being poor for playing on the Wings. It is predictable.

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12-22-2012, 03:43 PM
  #42
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No. There are plenty of guys on the team that "don't put it together every game" that I think still work their butts off. Helm. Miller. Filp. You can tell when a guy is working hard. And a good number of the Wings players are always working hard even if they aren't scoring. Filp's biggest problem has always been his lack of killer instinct. He seems afraid to shoot. But he's never ever lazy.

Franzen? He gets lazy.
Actually on the team if I had to use a player to debunk the Franzen argument I would have trotted out Filppula. Now he just had his "Franzen Breakout" and of course he isn't as big. But we never get upset when he doesn't go to the middle, shoot the puck enough or whatever. He plays a little better defense on the wing but I really don't see a huge difference in effort level between the two.

Maybe his hate parade is waiting with his next contract, I am actually pretty sure that is what it is given the history of this fanbase.

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12-22-2012, 03:45 PM
  #43
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http://capgeek.com/comparables/?season=2012&player=292

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12-22-2012, 03:52 PM
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I would take him over every player on that list aside from a couple guys that have already signed massive extension raises and Giroux who I am expecting will get a huge deal.

Really the only guy of any interest on that list is Pavelski, doubt he doesn't go above 5 million in 2014 also, but he is really the only name I would think about and I still pass although that one is close.

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12-22-2012, 04:03 PM
  #45
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Actually on the team if I had to use a player to debunk the Franzen argument I would have trotted out Filppula. Now he just had his "Franzen Breakout" and of course he isn't as big. But we never get upset when he doesn't go to the middle, shoot the puck enough or whatever. He plays a little better defense on the wing but I really don't see a huge difference in effort level between the two.

Maybe his hate parade is waiting with his next contract, I am actually pretty sure that is what it is given the history of this fanbase.
We *do* get upset that he doesn't shoot enough. Because if he shot more, he'd have amazing success with it. But Filppula's work ethic is not questioned because it's pretty obvious to anyone that watches that he's working his ass off. Shoot first mentality is different from being lazy.

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12-22-2012, 04:15 PM
  #46
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I would take him over every player on that list aside from a couple guys that have already signed massive extension raises and Giroux who I am expecting will get a huge deal.

Really the only guy of any interest on that list is Pavelski, doubt he doesn't go above 5 million in 2014 also, but he is really the only name I would think about and I still pass although that one is close.
Agreed! If think about Lucic, but he hasnt proven as much as franzen

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12-22-2012, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Actually on the team if I had to use a player to debunk the Franzen argument I would have trotted out Filppula. Now he just had his "Franzen Breakout" and of course he isn't as big. But we never get upset when he doesn't go to the middle, shoot the puck enough or whatever. He plays a little better defense on the wing but I really don't see a huge difference in effort level between the two.

Maybe his hate parade is waiting with his next contract, I am actually pretty sure that is what it is given the history of this fanbase.
Flip just had his breakout season so he'll be liked for about two more years

It might have to do with their style of play, maybe Franzen just "looks" lazier because of his style

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12-22-2012, 04:19 PM
  #48
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In all honesty though, I do get the desire to have him play on the 2nd line instead of the 1st.

Or rather, the outcry to acquire another scorer for Pav so that Franzen can play on the 2nd line with perhaps less pressure and thus play his game more effectively.

It would just be friggin sweet is all.
This is what needs to happen so badly. a 2nd line of

Franzen - Zetterberg - Brunner

going into the next season would be beastly. Takes pressure off that line as teams are honing in on Pav, or if teams start to watch this line... then whoever is playing with Pav will have a lot of fun.

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12-22-2012, 04:33 PM
  #49
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This is what needs to happen so badly. a 2nd line of

Franzen - Zetterberg - Brunner

going into the next season would be beastly. Takes pressure off that line as teams are honing in on Pav, or if teams start to watch this line... then whoever is playing with Pav will have a lot of fun.
Hmm...

(Sniper*)-Datsyuk-Bertuzzi
Franzen-Zetterberg-Brunner
Nyquist-Filppula-Samuelsson
Abdelkader-Helm-Cleary

*From some fantasy land, hehe.

And yes I'm aware that I've omitted so many names that will more than likely be in the lineup that it's not even funny.

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12-22-2012, 04:38 PM
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Filppula will not center the 3rd line

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