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Gagner at 2c

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Old
12-21-2012, 06:51 PM
  #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hynh View Post
Insisting on grit in the top 6 no matter the skill level is like buying a car from the 40s because it gets the same gas mileage as a 2012 F-150.
No one said anything close to that. Keep on making crap like that up or gave a respectful debate.

What we have had is people comparing SS to Gretzky, Sakic, Yzerman, Sedin, Kesler , Savard and Kane.

It's so obvious that SS was the first oilers high draft pick in many years and that so many fans here view him like a 16 year old kid does his first car. My first car was a oil leaking, couldn't do more than 105 without sounding like it was going to blow up rust bucket. Now that I have a sweet vehicle I realize my first car wasn't that great. Kind of like now that we have RNH and Gagner is still sputtering along, it is obvious where SS sits. Yet some still think he's a 70-80 point player and insist on comparing him to generational talents.

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12-21-2012, 09:32 PM
  #177
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I like Gagner, but I don't think having two small centers on our roster is the best idea moving forward. If the right deal isn't there, then I don't want to dump him, because he is light years ahead of the other options (Horcoff isn't more than a 4 center anymore in my opinion, none of our prospect centers are ready for top six minutes). If we could make a package for a Hanzal or someone like that (won't happen, lol), then by all means, do it, but Gagner is the best option right now.

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12-21-2012, 09:34 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
No one said anything close to that. Keep on making crap like that up or gave a respectful debate.

What we have had is people comparing SS to Gretzky, Sakic, Yzerman, Sedin, Kesler , Savard and Kane.

It's so obvious that SS was the first oilers high draft pick in many years and that so many fans here view him like a 16 year old kid does his first car. My first car was a oil leaking, couldn't do more than 105 without sounding like it was going to blow up rust bucket. Now that I have a sweet vehicle I realize my first car wasn't that great. Kind of like now that we have RNH and Gagner is still sputtering along, it is obvious where SS sits. Yet some still think he's a 70-80 point player and insist on comparing him to generational talents.
Nobody thinks Gagner is a 70 - 80 point player. But he could be a 50 point player, which is pretty good for a second line center. Its his size and grit that are the obstacles for the team, not his offensive output.

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12-21-2012, 09:38 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
Gretzky had teammates who had his back and made sure he was protected. We have our Gretz in RNH and need Gagner to be a Semenko. Your Gretz analogy would be valid if Gagner was the go to forward on this team.
We need Gagner to be a yard ape who can hardly skate and only puts up points when pucks bounce off of him? Great, you've figured it out, lets trade Gagner and get Steve Mac back, that'll fix the problem.

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12-21-2012, 09:56 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Nobody thinks Gagner is a 70 - 80 point player. But he could be a 50 point player, which is pretty good for a second line center. Its his size and grit that are the obstacles for the team, not his offensive output.
woohoo he could maybe be a 50 point player if he plays with 80 point players while still getting served defensively.

Give me a 35-40 point center who wins 55% of his faceoffs, wins more puck battles than he loses and creates space for the other smallish and more skilled players on the roster any day.

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12-21-2012, 10:22 PM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nabob View Post
woohoo he could maybe be a 50 point player if he plays with 80 point players while still getting served defensively.

Give me a 35-40 point center who wins 55% of his faceoffs, wins more puck battles than he loses and creates space for the other smallish and more skilled players on the roster any day.
Why don't you just wait a couple years and that will most likely be Gagner but instead of 35-40 points you can get 55-65 points and have him make space for teammates with smart puck movement and his tremendous hustle. He's a stocky 5'11 he's really not getting pushed around like posters like you are trying to insinuate, and he almost certainly will continue to get stronger. You are overstating any kind of defensive issues, he seems fine to me. The stats from last year that one could use to make an argument as to his defensive play make him look like a decent 2nd line center (and thats to say nothing of his age or offensive totals). He's not going to PK but at evens he does his job against reasonable competition. Again the big thing with this player is the most likely scenario sees him have his best days ahead of him.

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12-21-2012, 10:53 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
Now that we have RNH and Gagner is still sputtering along, it is obvious where SS sits. Yet some still think he's a 70-80 point player and insist on comparing him to generational talents.
And others insist on calling him SS and acting as if he hasn't improved at all. Those looking at the player objectively can see that the truth is somewhere in between.

Would you take a bet that Gagner will not clear seventy points within the next few seasons?

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12-21-2012, 11:19 PM
  #183
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I have to agree with Eskimo, he's made some very good points in this thread about Gags.

I don't know if he will spend his career here but I don't agree with trading him and not getting what he is really worth to us. If we trade him now it can't be a lateral move because Gags is only improving right now. We can't get undersold on him and that is what is going to happen if we trade him. Let him develop.

We're not sure what he will turn into as a player. However, we can't just trade the guy for the sake of trading him because then we lose big time.

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12-22-2012, 02:13 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
And others insist on calling him SS and acting as if he hasn't improved at all. Those looking at the player objectively can see that the truth is somewhere in between.

Would you take a bet that Gagner will not clear seventy points within the next few seasons?
Yes. If he bests 70 points I will stop calling him SS.

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12-22-2012, 03:05 AM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nabob View Post
No one said anything close to that. Keep on making crap like that up or gave a respectful debate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
We have our Gretz in RNH and need Gagner to be a Semenko.
Try again.

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12-22-2012, 03:15 AM
  #186
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This thread is longer than it needed to be.

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12-22-2012, 04:44 PM
  #187
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If Gagner got stronger, more consistent, better defensively and on the draws then he could be a good 2C. Not sure if he'd be the right 2C for us unless he improved dramatically in at least the strength area but he'd be a valuable commodity to deal at least.

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12-22-2012, 09:30 PM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nabob View Post
woohoo he could maybe be a 50 point player if he plays with 80 point players while still getting served defensively.

Give me a 35-40 point center who wins 55% of his faceoffs, wins more puck battles than he loses and creates space for the other smallish and more skilled players on the roster any day.
I don't think you realize how few 50 point players there are every year.

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12-22-2012, 09:40 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
I don't think you realize how few 50 point players there are every year.
I don't think you realize how few of 2nd line centers gets to center a Hall or Yakupov.

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12-22-2012, 09:44 PM
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
I don't think you realize how few of 2nd line centers gets to center a Hall or Yakupov.
Scorecoff?

Pegging this for his breakout year. Absolutely. His stats overseas, decent linemates, decent minutes...

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12-22-2012, 11:26 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
I don't think you realize how few of 2nd line centers gets to center a Hall or Yakupov.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with my statement, but thanks.

Last season, 35 centers scored 50 points. Gagner scored 47, putting him in the top 40 in the league. As I've already admitted, Gagner on this team is not the ideal number 2 center, in a perfect world we would have someone bigger, better at faceoffs and better defensively. But what everyone here seems to gloss over, is how the Oil would get that ideal #2 center.

People can piss and moan about what Gagner lacks, but at least recognize that he does bring some value to the lineup, and is in actuality, a legitimate top six forward. He isn't perfect, but he's not the horrible #2 center a lot of people seem to think he is.

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12-23-2012, 12:21 AM
  #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
I don't think you realize how few of 2nd line centers gets to center a Hall or Yakupov.
Gagner works good with cycle players. Its the one thing Hall ain't. Eberle and Gagner are much more of a match but we don't ever seem to see that except for injuries. I'd love to see Gagner with Yakupov.

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12-23-2012, 11:49 AM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
My point was that we have plenty of skill in top talents like yak, ebs, hall, Hemsky and nuge. The others should be guys like Semenko to protect this talent. Guys like pajjarvi and Gagner are great if they have 2 bigger guys on their line
It's not the '80s anymore.

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12-23-2012, 12:38 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
We need Gagner to be a yard ape who can hardly skate and only puts up points when pucks bounce off of him? Great, you've figured it out, lets trade Gagner and get Steve Mac back, that'll fix the problem.
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Originally Posted by Moose Coleman View Post
It's not the '80s anymore.
That was not my point..Semenko was the wrong example..
Hartikainen would be a better example...

We need to surround our 4 young skilled kids + Hemsky with grit that can keep up them ..
Teams are generally successful that have guys like Downie\ Brouwer\ Horton complimenting the stars etc

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12-23-2012, 04:22 PM
  #195
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Harski will be a good possibility for a solid top 9 or even a top 6 role, but I'd still like to have another guy that can drop 'em in the top 6 so that he can be in our top 6 when all hell breaks loose.

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12-23-2012, 06:47 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Harski will be a good possibility for a solid top 9 or even a top 6 role, but I'd still like to have another guy that can drop 'em in the top 6 so that he can be in our top 6 when all hell breaks loose.
I know most of Oilers nation is hell-bent on both Hemsky & Yakupov in the top 6, but I think it might be best to have one of those 2 on the 3rd line. Hemsky and Horcoff have played their most productive years on each other's line, and Yak on the 3rd line playing sheltered minutes isn't the worst think in the world.

I'd like to see one of:

Hall-RNH-Yakupov
Hartikainen-Gagner-Eberle
Smyth-Horcoff-Hemsky
Eager/Petrell/Hortichuk-Belanger-Jones

Hartikainen-RNH-Eberle
Hall-Gagner-Hemsky
Smyth-Horcoff-Yakupov
Eager/Petrell/Hortichuk-Belanger-Jones

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Old
12-23-2012, 06:55 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Nobody thinks Gagner is a 70 - 80 point player. But he could be a 50 point player, which is pretty good for a second line center. Its his size and grit that are the obstacles for the team, not his offensive output.
If only one could put Gagner's skill into Paajarvi's body...

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12-23-2012, 06:59 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
If Gagner got stronger, more consistent, better defensively and on the draws then he could be a good 2C. Not sure if he'd be the right 2C for us unless he improved dramatically in at least the strength area but he'd be a valuable commodity to deal at least.
Pretty much. The issue is definitely not his lack of size. If he could develop into a Drury/Langkow type centerman--undersized, but strong, mobile and good on the dot, there would still be space for him.

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12-23-2012, 08:26 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by tiger_80 View Post
If only one could put Gagner's skill into Paajarvi's body...
Its not just the skill, you'd need to transplant the heart as well ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by nabob View Post
Yes. If he bests 70 points I will stop calling him SS.
I would hope so.
But what I actually asked was if you would be willing to bet against Gagner scoring seventy points within the next few seasons.

I know you won't, but you should take a look at Gagner's career accomplishments .... on the worst team in the league, playing 70% of his games with no-names and borderline NHLers. This is a player who wants to succeed and so far has succeeded at every level and on every stage .... I never bet against guys like that, no matter how "small" they are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Gagner

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12-23-2012, 09:01 PM
  #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
We need to surround our 4 young skilled kids + Hemsky with grit that can keep up them ..
Teams are generally successful that have guys like Downie\ Brouwer\ Horton complimenting the stars etc
I've been on the Horton bandwagon for a while now. I don't think he ends up in Boston, and he'd be a great compliment to our team.

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Its not just the skill, you'd need to transplant the heart as well ...
This is why I'm hesitant to see him go. He knows how to contribute when he's not scoring, and he's willing to do it.

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