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Johan Franzen - Third Highest Goal Scorer Of 2004 Draft

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Old
12-22-2012, 04:52 PM
  #51
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Filppula will not center the 3rd line
This. I am tired of even seeing it thrown out there. He didn't even do it last year when Helm went down to injury and that should tell you something. He might center the second line or the first line while Datsyuk or Zetterberg go out to the wing as they age, but he isn't going back to the third. In fact if they do that you can pretty much expect a trade like Jordan Staal or him signing somewhere else.

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12-22-2012, 04:58 PM
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Dude works out at the Novi Lifetime a lot when he's back living in Novi. I've seen him in the locker room a lot. You're crazy if you think they call him "the Mule" because he's a hardworker

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12-22-2012, 05:00 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by 13 HockeyTown 40 View Post
Filppula will not center the 3rd line
How about the second line?

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12-22-2012, 05:14 PM
  #54
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Dude works out at the Novi Lifetime a lot when he's back living in Novi. I've seen him in the locker room a lot. You're crazy if you think they call him "the Mule" because he's a hardworker
Actually always kind of assumed that was it, they all seem to think it is a little too funny that Stevie's nickname for him caught on.

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12-22-2012, 05:59 PM
  #55
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I would take him over every player on that list aside from a couple guys that have already signed massive extension raises and Giroux who I am expecting will get a huge deal.

Really the only guy of any interest on that list is Pavelski, doubt he doesn't go above 5 million in 2014 also, but he is really the only name I would think about and I still pass although that one is close.
There are better players on that list for a similar cap hit with out being signed until they are 40.

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12-22-2012, 06:13 PM
  #56
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There are better players on that list for a similar cap hit with out being signed until they are 40.
I'm not even a huge Franzen fan, so I also find his contract a bit too long.

But with the way the current NHL is structured, the cap hit becomes irrelevant due to him retiring, being demoted to the minors, or simply due to the fact the cap will be significantly higher in 7 years.

With the Wings significantly under the salary cap last year, I think we can all agree it's not a pressing concern at the moment. Of all the huge, stupid contracts handed out by owners, NONE have hurt their teams so far. None. (The only exception being if the team/owners are broke) Not to be a broken record, but the Rangers remain the benchmark for this behavior. They have made not one, not two, but three stupid signings since the lockout. Gomez, Redden, and Drury. And none of those hurt them from getting huge free agents whenever they wanted. Richards and Gaborik are on Broadway. Furthermore, they just acquired Nash's massive contract.

And we're worried about Franzen's $4 million in a few years? Come on.

The best argument for a team being hurt by huge contracts is Chicago, but hey, they won a Cup in the process, have Hossa to a lifetime deal, so it wasn't all bad. People forget they were able to completely erase Huet's contract by having him play in Europe for a year. Whoosh, stupid cap hit gone. Just like that! Franzen could easily go play in Europe at age 38, collect his checks from the Wings, and the world would move on without a worry.

There are GM's that want to stop these loopholes, but as it stands, the fuss over big contracts is overblown significantly if you have an owner that can afford to take the hit.

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12-22-2012, 07:08 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
Round and round we go.
Franzen vs Hossa... Again. The great Red Wing myth?
And earlier I already addressed that critics point to his stats being poor for playing on the Wings. It is predictable.
I was pointing out pretty large gaps in your logic. You can't in one breathe say Franzen was over-performing in 08 and that we shouldn't have expected that as the norm. Hence, why we'd even consider keeping Franzen over Hossa is hard to reconcile with your arguement.

And we can cherry pick stats to support our arguements all day. When it comes down to it, watching 80 games a season for however long, I notice a difference in Mules compete level. It's also accentuated by the games where he really does bust his ass and you can see the difference. He has a hard time engaging. Coincidently, the past 2 years the Wings have been PLAGUED by late starts. I notice Franzen is a capital offender here as well and I don't think it's a coincidence. Berts legs are old and busted so Franzen and Pav really need to set the tone, Bert just needs to get in front of the net, since Franzen doesn't want to go there anymore. That alone should say tons.

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12-22-2012, 07:32 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
There are better players on that list for a similar cap hit with out being signed until they are 40.
Absolutely - but he's still worth every penny. Most of the guys on the list who are better will be making way more than Franzen in a few years.

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12-22-2012, 07:36 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by HockeytownOverhaul View Post
I was pointing out pretty large gaps in your logic. You can't in one breathe say Franzen was over-performing in 08 and that we shouldn't have expected that as the norm. Hence, why we'd even consider keeping Franzen over Hossa is hard to reconcile with your arguement.

And we can cherry pick stats to support our arguements all day. When it comes down to it, watching 80 games a season for however long, I notice a difference in Mules compete level. It's also accentuated by the games where he really does bust his ass and you can see the difference. He has a hard time engaging. Coincidently, the past 2 years the Wings have been PLAGUED by late starts. I notice Franzen is a capital offender here as well and I don't think it's a coincidence. Berts legs are old and busted so Franzen and Pav really need to set the tone, Bert just needs to get in front of the net, since Franzen doesn't want to go there anymore. That alone should say tons.
Well, in reality, keeping Hossa probably would've helped improved our regular season standing and entertainment level. But it wouldn't have helped us in the playoffs considering Hossa has been invisible offensively since '08 in Pittsburgh and Franzen hasn't been great in the playoffs lately either.

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12-22-2012, 07:49 PM
  #60
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Quess what. usually this is because of injury. Everybody suffers and plays stupid at injured. Except Yzerman.
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You're describing the plight of nearly every "goal scorer" out there outside of the truly elite guys like Stamkos that always light it up.

Ryder was dogged for being inconsistent in Montreal. Then he found a nice revival in Boston and his best year in Dallas. Neal was dogged for being inconsistent in Dallas. Hell, he was SO inconsistent they traded him.

These are top 6 guys that have a knack for the net but can totally frustrate you when they don't score. Williams for LA. Michalek in Ottawa. Hell, even Bobby Ryan drives some Ducks fans nuts. The tale of Franzen is one well-known throughout the league. It sucks when your scorer doesn't score.

When if you score 30 a year, that means on average, there's 52 games you don't score. Even more when you start adding in multi-goal games. But what Franzen has done, since 2007, is score 0.4 goals per game in the regular season. That's over a sample of 323 games. The "inconsistency" and "azy" issues that plagues him is a reputation perpetuated by a handful ON THESE VERY FORUMS that post in every Franzen thread as if it is fact.

He's a steady guy who will net you about 30 goals a year like clockwork for the last 5 years. Frustrating in a #firstworldproblem kind of way.
I'm no Franzen hater and don't want to see him moved. I would just like to see him helping the team with when he doesn't score. Sure part of the problem could be injury. But I would still like to see him finish checks and not shy away from contact. They pissed him off a little in the playoffs last year and it seemed to wake him up a little. He just needs to find a little more motivatation. If injuries are the problem he should be looking good if they ever start the season.

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12-22-2012, 08:02 PM
  #61
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How about the second line?

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Yuck... the chemistry after the 1st line is horrendous.

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12-22-2012, 08:38 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by HockeytownOverhaul View Post
I was pointing out pretty large gaps in your logic. You can't in one breathe say Franzen was over-performing in 08 and that we shouldn't have expected that as the norm. Hence, why we'd even consider keeping Franzen over Hossa is hard to reconcile with your arguement.
I don't think it's a gap in logic when the issue "Franzen vs Hossa" is entirely fan constructed, and not at all the reality of why Franzen was retained and Hossa signed with the Hawks.

That argument has been played out ad nauseum and, I believe, completely debunks the idea it was a choice between those two players. That viewpoint is simplistic and only serves to rile up those who would wish to diminish Franzen or criticize management.

And I say this as somebody who thinks Hossa is the far superior player to Franzen and I wish he were still on the Wings.

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12-22-2012, 08:43 PM
  #63
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I think the complaints regarding Franzen would lessen if he wasn't forced to play on the 1st line with Datsyuk. Franzen is the perfect complimentary 2nd line forward to put with Z. If only KH could get some better wingers for Pavs...

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12-22-2012, 08:59 PM
  #64
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I'm no Franzen hater and don't want to see him moved. [...] If injuries are the problem he should be looking good if they ever start the season.
I was merely using your quote as a jumping off point, not accusing you of drinking the massive amounts of Franzen Hatorade that's being dumped upon our affable Swede. You're one of the most reasonable commentators in this thread, no doubt.

We all want more from our players, that's expected, but objectively I find it hard to accuse a player who scores 30 goals a year of not trying. Regardless, his defensive play could use honing. And some aggressiveness, when required, wouldn't hurt. His comments about having fun, to me, suggest he feels a laborious nature to the game now, particularly when the playoffs have been huge disappointments and the wins are harder to come by. Perhaps time off is a blessing in disguise when it comes to Franzen.

In regards to injuries and hot starts, he started the year with 7 points in the first 5 games. Points in 4 of 5 games. Not too shabby! He then went on a 6 game dry spell before scoring 9 points in 4 games. In the remaining games, he has points in 32 of 61 games. Aside from a few dry pockets, a very even distribution, actually. During that stretch, he never went longer than 4 games without a point.

Hossa had a 6 game pointless stretch in the middle of the season. And zero points in the last 5 games he played, including playoffs. Only 3 points over his final 10 games played. Damn that streaky, inconsistent, no effort Hossa!

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12-22-2012, 09:05 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by 13 HockeyTown 40 View Post
I think the complaints regarding Franzen would lessen if he wasn't forced to play on the 1st line with Datsyuk. Franzen is the perfect complimentary 2nd line forward to put with Z. If only KH could get some better wingers for Pavs...
The Wings have adopted a scoring by committee approach. For the most part, it's worked, as Wings scoring has been in the top 10 like clockwork. 7th last year. 2nd the year before. 14th in 2010, outlier of sorts. 1st in 2009. 3rd in 2008. 10th in 2007. Balanced scoring throughout the ranks and lots of contributions from the blueline.

However, I agree, scoring wingers remain a pressing issue, particularly with the lost season. My hope is that the problem is solved internally with the emergence of Nyquist and Tatar. We never got to see what Brunner could do, either.

A rough start, whenever they play again, would probably signal the need for a shake-up trade if internal help is not sufficient to compensate for declines in the aging wingers in Franzen, Bert, and Sammy.

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12-22-2012, 10:32 PM
  #66
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I'm not even a huge Franzen fan, so I also find his contract a bit too long.

But with the way the current NHL is structured, the cap hit becomes irrelevant due to him retiring, being demoted to the minors, or simply due to the fact the cap will be significantly higher in 7 years.
1. Not sure how that might work in the new CBA.
2. That's not my point. I'm not saying it's an awful deal. I'm saying there are other really good $4M players who aren't paid for 12 years.

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With the Wings significantly under the salary cap last year, I think we can all agree it's not a pressing concern at the moment. Of all the huge, stupid contracts handed out by owners, NONE have hurt their teams so far. None. (The only exception being if the team/owners are broke) Not to be a broken record, but the Rangers remain the benchmark for this behavior. They have made not one, not two, but three stupid signings since the lockout. Gomez, Redden, and Drury. And none of those hurt them from getting huge free agents whenever they wanted. Richards and Gaborik are on Broadway. Furthermore, they just acquired Nash's massive contract.

And we're worried about Franzen's $4 million in a few years? Come on.
Your post was in response to me, but you seem to be arguing against posts I never made.

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12-22-2012, 10:34 PM
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Absolutely - but he's still worth every penny. Most of the guys on the list who are better will be making way more than Franzen in a few years.
Franzen isn't worth every penny. But he's worth his cap hit and more -- for now.

Ask me in 3-4 years.

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12-22-2012, 10:38 PM
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Well, in reality, keeping Hossa probably would've helped improved our regular season standing and entertainment level. But it wouldn't have helped us in the playoffs considering Hossa has been invisible offensively since '08 in Pittsburgh and Franzen hasn't been great in the playoffs lately either.
I'd prefer Hossa -- for the regular season and playoffs. But I'm not sure it would have helped us much either.

One of the problems this team has is that virtually every one who is any good has won the Cup. This team doesn't play with the same spirit it had in 07 and 08.

Hossa would have helped. But probably not enough.

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12-22-2012, 10:41 PM
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I'd prefer Hossa -- for the regular season and playoffs. But I'm not sure it would have helped us much either.

One of the problems this team has is that virtually every one who is any good has won the Cup. This team doesn't play with the same spirit it had in 07 and 08.

Hossa would have helped. But probably not enough.
Hopefully the young guys will bring a spark to the team.

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12-22-2012, 11:15 PM
  #70
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I'd prefer Hossa -- for the regular season and playoffs. But I'm not sure it would have helped us much either.

One of the problems this team has is that virtually every one who is any good has won the Cup. This team doesn't play with the same spirit it had in 07 and 08.

Hossa would have helped. But probably not enough.
I still think this has more to do with the supporting talent dwindling over the years and I think you agree since you're hoping for a scoring 3rd line that we haven't had since '08-'09.

IMO I think it's extremely clear that as players have left and retired this team has seemed to get a lot worse. I don't believe Franzen, Datsyuk or Zetterberg are that much diminished since the back-to-back cup years, but they don't have any help. Hudler was decent and helped offensively, but him being at the top of the secondary scoring reign isn't enough.

I'm really hoping Holland had a plan to wait until the CBA was finalized to make moves because if this is what we've got then we're really banking a lot on prospects that we haven't ever made any effort to play at the NHL level.

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12-22-2012, 11:28 PM
  #71
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1. Not sure how that might work in the new CBA.
2. That's not my point. I'm not saying it's an awful deal. I'm saying there are other really good $4M players who aren't paid for 12 years.

Your post was in response to me, but you seem to be arguing against posts I never made.
You said you liked other guys contracts better. My response is saying the long contract, 12 years, DOES NOT MATTER. It just doesn't. New York proved that. If he sucks, ala Redden, we'll work it out. Simple as that. Short deal, long deal, whatever. It's done and it won't hurt the team in the slightest. So it doesn't hurt, who cares?

I'm not going to damn the contract that works fine under the rules it was signed under. Nor speculate.

And if your worry is about being paid for 12 years, well, did you plan on inheriting that money or what? Why do you care if the last 2-3 years of his deal are a total waste? The last 3 years only combine for $4 million dollars. The last 4 only combine for $6.5 million (1.6 million per year). I'm glad you're looking out for Mr. I's pocketbook, but he'll be fine.

Do I think the lifetime deal was needed? No.
Do I think it matters? No.

I've made this exact same argument regarding Zetterberg's contract as well. I don't get the concern, other than it could be wasted cash. But even that could be argued as the cash at the end of the deals is there only to massage the beginning into a low number. Consider it a signing/loyal bonus if it helps you sleep at night, worrying about poor Mr. I's cash.

Guess who isn't sweating it!



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12-23-2012, 07:12 AM
  #72
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I'm really not sure where people get the idea that Franzen is a "strong" skater. From my recollection he has had a pretty crappy stride.

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12-23-2012, 09:52 AM
  #73
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I don't care what Hossa has or hasn't done in the playoffs. I'll take a two-way forward who doesn't take a shift off as opposed to a floater.

Hossa is superior in every aspect of the game compared to Franzen.

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12-23-2012, 10:19 AM
  #74
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You said you liked other guys contracts better. My response is saying the long contract, 12 years, DOES NOT MATTER. It just doesn't. New York proved that. If he sucks, ala Redden, we'll work it out. Simple as that. Short deal, long deal, whatever. It's done and it won't hurt the team in the slightest. So it doesn't hurt, who cares?

I'm not going to damn the contract that works fine under the rules it was signed under. Nor speculate.

And if your worry is about being paid for 12 years, well, did you plan on inheriting that money or what? Why do you care if the last 2-3 years of his deal are a total waste? The last 3 years only combine for $4 million dollars. The last 4 only combine for $6.5 million (1.6 million per year). I'm glad you're looking out for Mr. I's pocketbook, but he'll be fine.

Do I think the lifetime deal was needed? No.
Do I think it matters? No.

I've made this exact same argument regarding Zetterberg's contract as well. I don't get the concern, other than it could be wasted cash. But even that could be argued as the cash at the end of the deals is there only to massage the beginning into a low number. Consider it a signing/loyal bonus if it helps you sleep at night, worrying about poor Mr. I's cash.

Guess who isn't sweating it!

Not a fan of the Zetterberg fan, either. But as he's an elite player and Franzen isn't, I don't dislike it as much.

Isn't the NHL demanding provisions that will impact EXISTING backdiving contracts?

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12-23-2012, 10:21 AM
  #75
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I'm really not sure where people get the idea that Franzen is a "strong" skater. From my recollection he has had a pretty crappy stride.
He's not agile. But he gets to speed pretty quickly and his top speed is pretty good.

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