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Old
12-22-2012, 01:44 PM
  #51
CarvinSigX
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I'm thinking something like...

Stewart
Cole

Orpik
Despres

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12-22-2012, 01:52 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superunknown94 View Post
Fascinating stuff for sure. Now, can you explain why Neal has flourished next to Malkin and Ponikarovsky didn't?
The answer is obvious isn't it? Neal is simply a better player than Poni is, just as Stewart is. Poni never had the offensive upside that both Neal had and Stewart has, and was much older when he got his shot in Pittsburgh.

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Stewart has all the tools to be an effective player, but he hasn't put it all together on a consistent basis. Putting him in Bylsma's system isn't gonna lead to instant success. In fact, it could result in quite the opposite. If he didn't bring a high energy game, he'd be relegated to the 4th line and get the occasional shift.

By the way, I'm not denying that he could score 40. I just don't think it is a guarantee.
I agree, it's no guarantee that he'd score that much, but it is much more likely that he would in Pittsburgh than he'd score only 15 again. His two exceptional years came from playing in two open systems (including Davis Payne's system, which is very similar to Bylsma's) with players that aren't as talented. To me, those years are pretty good indicators of the kind of success he'd have with Pittsburgh.

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12-22-2012, 01:54 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarvinSigX View Post
I'm thinking something like...

Stewart
Cole

Orpik
Despres
IMO we got a winner

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Old
12-22-2012, 02:11 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Thallis View Post
The answer is obvious isn't it? Neal is simply a better player than Poni is, just as Stewart is. Poni never had the offensive upside that both Neal had and Stewart has, and was much older when he got his shot in Pittsburgh.
Ponikarovsky played the most uninspired hockey during his stint with the Pens. So it is hard to say how good he could have been. But that is besides the point.

Stewart can either be an underwhelming player who weighs his line down (Poni), or be an impact player that makes his line click (Neal). It is hard to know which one.

Quote:
I agree, it's no guarantee that he'd score that much, but it is much more likely that he would in Pittsburgh than he'd score only 15 again. His two exceptional years came from playing in two open systems (including Davis Payne's system, which is very similar to Bylsma's) with players that aren't as talented. To me, those years are pretty good indicators of the kind of success he'd have with Pittsburgh.
As stated earlier, he more than likely wouldn't fit the Pens' style. So the whole sell on systems isn't that appealing.

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12-22-2012, 02:36 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarvinSigX View Post
I'm thinking something like...

Stewart
Cole

Orpik
Despres
Not bad, but why get Orpik if we are getting Despres?

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12-22-2012, 02:39 PM
  #56
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Somebody will go down, leaving us with good 'ol Woyrika to fill in. No thanks. lol

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12-22-2012, 02:48 PM
  #57
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Well that's why we signed Tyler effing Chorney...oh

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Old
12-22-2012, 04:58 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Dangles78 View Post
IMO we got a winner
For the Blues, yes.

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12-22-2012, 05:30 PM
  #59
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Right...Because the guy who just had a terrible year on a GREAT team who is a few years from retirement is worth more than a big young forward who has had one down year on the best defensive team of all time. (Shootout goals don't friggin' count)

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12-22-2012, 05:55 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by CarvinSigX View Post
Right...Because the guy who just had a terrible year on a GREAT team who is a few years from retirement is worth more than a big young forward who has had one down year on the best defensive team of all time. (Shootout goals don't friggin' count)
You conveniently forget to mention the rest of the trade.

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12-22-2012, 06:00 PM
  #61
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Okay? Stewart is worth more than Orpik, while Despres is worth more than Cole. Cole, underrated on these boards, should still become a #3-4, especially alongside a Pietrangelo or Letang. Cole will be a slightly lower version of Orpik's prime with his good skating ability, physical presence, and a decent offensive game. I'm not just throwing **** on a wall here.

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12-22-2012, 06:02 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by CarvinSigX View Post
Okay? Stewart is worth more than Orpik, while Despres is worth more than Cole. Cole, underrated on these boards, should still become a #3-4, especially alongside a Pietrangelo or Letang. Cole will be a slightly lower version of Orpik's prime with his good skating ability, physical presence, and a decent offensive game. I'm not just throwing **** on a wall here.
Okay, bad my bad. 'cause pretty much all the bold proclamations about Stewart are just that.

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12-22-2012, 06:31 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
For the Blues, yes.
Cole is being underrated in this thread.

Stewart has his skeptics, but I think he could thrive in a system that isn't as defensive oriented as St Louis.

I also think Dupuis has the versatility to play any F position so we could possibly be looking at

Dupuis-Crosby-Stewart
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal
Cooke-Sutter-Kennedy
Glass/Tangradi-Vitale-Adams

Martin-Letang
Cole-Niskanen
Bortuzzo/Strait-Engelland

The defense is a little weaker and I know that's Pittsburgh's main concern, but I think the acquisition of a veteran defender would solidify that lineup.

IDK, I'm just trying to look at different possibilities here. Just because I said "we have a winner" doesn't necessarily mean I'd do it hypothetically or want GMRS to do it. It was just the best proposal I've seen in this thread.

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12-22-2012, 06:47 PM
  #64
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I like Ian Cole just fine, but he's not someone I'd want over Orpik and Despres right now regardless of who's worth more or whatever. We give up 400 goals in a playoff series and our response is to weaken the team defensively at two fronts - on the blueline and then by inserting a slug like Chris Stewart into the lineup.

Paul Martin plays the way that he does last year and gets rewarded/forced into more tough minutes. And a contender is actually going to trot out two third pairing defensemen in its top-4, and then the third pair is a rookie with a career minor leaguer/fringe NHLer attached.

Respectfully, I'm just not buying what you're selling here. I just don't see a front where it makes sense on the ice. In a video game, yeah, it probably works. But, ugh, that's just gonna produce a lot of foul language for Pens fans when that squad hits the ice.

In terms of different possibilities, let's find one that improves our team defense. We're not even sure yet that Niskanen can handle second pairing minutes (in Dallas he certainly couldn't), ideally he isn't the heir apparent to the Letang throne if something should happen to his noggin again.

Why take a chance on exposing players to the elements to add maybe 10 goals to your lineup when you can insulate players and prevent so many more?

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12-22-2012, 07:17 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
I like Ian Cole just fine, but he's not someone I'd want over Orpik and Despres right now regardless of who's worth more or whatever. We give up 400 goals in a playoff series and our response is to weaken the team defensively at two fronts - on the blueline and then by inserting a slug like Chris Stewart into the lineup.

Paul Martin plays the way that he does last year and gets rewarded/forced into more tough minutes. And a contender is actually going to trot out two third pairing defensemen in its top-4, and then the third pair is a rookie with a career minor leaguer/fringe NHLer attached.

Respectfully, I'm just not buying what you're selling here. I just don't see a front where it makes sense on the ice. In a video game, yeah, it probably works. But, ugh, that's just gonna produce a lot of foul language for Pens fans when that squad hits the ice.

In terms of different possibilities, let's find one that improves our team defense. We're not even sure yet that Niskanen can handle second pairing minutes (in Dallas he certainly couldn't), ideally he isn't the heir apparent to the Letang throne if something should happen to his noggin again.

Why take a chance on exposing players to the elements to add maybe 10 goals to your lineup when you can insulate players and prevent so many more?
I completely agree with this. There's a lockout and I'm bored. It's just fun to look at different possibilities when looking at the lineup, but in reality it shouldn't/wouldn't happen for the reasons you specified. I probably should have made it clear that I actually wouldn't make this trade lol.

However, I have confidence in Bortuzzo in playing as the #6 on the Penguins. Maybe not so much with Strait which I'm assuming that's who you're implying is a career AHLer/fringe NHLer.

As for the bolded part....what would you suggest? I'm not sure if it's the lineup or the system HCDB is running that is the bigger issue. The upcoming UFA class isn't one that I'd target so the solution happens via trade or internally.

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12-22-2012, 07:34 PM
  #66
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It's not about what I can suggest, it's about what's feasible. We could stand to freshen up our bottom six, which I see was a concern in the offseason - Glass is a good addition, Ferriero will probably be in the lineup somewhere, Vitale is just fine. If you're going to all out in this high-forecheck, chip n' chase cycle deal, you have to have the bodies that can get 200 feet quickly and intelligently. Glass isn't exactly a world beater speed-wise, but he can skate and he's got a surprisingly good head for the game from what I've seen.

Defensively, what's available? You have to think short and long term. Small window to win in, major prospects coming down the line, tough call for management. If there's a season, I take the approach of what newly becomes available in the "new world" - Shero gave himself flexibility on that front by dealing Michalek away for a song. Maybe you go for the "invite" route and if nothing comes from it, you pay a slightly higher price at the deadline to make it happen. See how far Despres can get you, but know that going into the playoffs with three rookies isn't an option or Engelland in the top six isn't really a great option, the stage is too big for him...so someone will have to emerge or a solution will have to be rendered...

I don't want to go through rosters and start trying to pillage teams though...I just don't see the Pens and Blues as good trading partners really...they're building something pretty terrific there, and honestly, I hope we don't help to subsidize it with a boneheaded trade...

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Old
12-22-2012, 08:28 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
It's not about Corey Perry or Chris Stewart. It's just about Chris Stewart. The Penguins organization - as far as I know - would not have such a player in their ranks. You see players like Stewart every once in a while...fine goal-scorer, can actually do some damage on fine days...scoresheet and vitals say that he's of quality and competence and desire, but the people in the business have other ideas. He'll get passed around from team to team, each successor club thinks that they'll be the ones to reel him in, or they have a coach or a teammate that they think he'll work with and for, but it never really comes fruition...he never delivers on his fullest potential...

He'll probably do his best work on bad or loose teams, if there's ever another league expansion, he'll be there...but when it's time for a serious team to get serious, Stewart (barring the ever-discussed, ever-banked on turnaround) will be pushed to the margins or pushed to the next stop...

Whether you believe that or not, I don't mind, I would be skeptical too. But as a Penguins fan, I have no interest in him. There are hungrier players out there that are determined to get better, to be an active part of the solution that the Pens could do better with. Even if they aren't as talented.
So to project a boost in scoring over the next season or two is just some wishful thinking and ill-informed desires that have no basis in reality... but you've projected his entire career from here on out. Get over yourself, and this mad prophet crap, just say you're not interested and could easily understand why other GMs would be skeptical. Rather than I can predict the future and also read the minds of every person in the Pens front office and while I'm at it Chris Stewart's as well.

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Old
12-22-2012, 10:16 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
It's not about Corey Perry or Chris Stewart. It's just about Chris Stewart. The Penguins organization - as far as I know - would not have such a player in their ranks. You see players like Stewart every once in a while...fine goal-scorer, can actually do some damage on fine days...scoresheet and vitals say that he's of quality and competence and desire, but the people in the business have other ideas. He'll get passed around from team to team, each successor club thinks that they'll be the ones to reel him in, or they have a coach or a teammate that they think he'll work with and for, but it never really comes fruition...he never delivers on his fullest potential...

He'll probably do his best work on bad or loose teams, if there's ever another league expansion, he'll be there...but when it's time for a serious team to get serious, Stewart (barring the ever-discussed, ever-banked on turnaround) will be pushed to the margins or pushed to the next stop...

Whether you believe that or not, I don't mind, I would be skeptical too. But as a Penguins fan, I have no interest in him. There are hungrier players out there that are determined to get better, to be an active part of the solution that the Pens could do better with. Even if they aren't as talented.
He's been on two teams and is 25. I think you may be judging him a little bit early. Good lord. He's not even just a goal scorer. But you wouldn't know that.

He'll probably do his best work on teams that are open and more uptempo. And/or he just had one off year last year. It happens. Sometimes people just aren't as good one year. They can return. Prior to that he had two 29 goal seasons. But let me guess, the 26 games down the stretch two years ago as the Blues pushed to try to get to a playoff spot isn't a serious time.

And it's interesting that you would mention Stewart not being a hungry player, or determined. Maybe you should read his story some time. Might help you gain perspective.

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12-22-2012, 11:03 PM
  #69
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He's been on two teams and is 25. I think you may be judging him a little bit early. Good lord. He's not even just a goal scorer. But you wouldn't know that.

He'll probably do his best work on teams that are open and more uptempo. And/or he just had one off year last year. It happens. Sometimes people just aren't as good one year. They can return. Prior to that he had two 29 goal seasons. But let me guess, the 26 games down the stretch two years ago as the Blues pushed to try to get to a playoff spot isn't a serious time.

And it's interesting that you would mention Stewart not being a hungry player, or determined. Maybe you should read his story some time. Might help you gain perspective.
This.

Though I will never believe that Stewart is 100% committed to off-ice training, I won't deny his skill. He thrived in CO and under Payne because....well....he wasn't playing under Hitchcock's system. We've seen that some players just don't play under him.

I can see why StL fans are reluctant in trading Stewart, especially after seeing his early success and giving up EJ for him, but I just don't see him fitting there long-term.

IDK and I honestly don't care what it'd take for a trade between these teams to happen involving Stewart, I'm just saying IMHO Stewart would regain his "dominant power forward potential" in Pittsburgh.

Some Burgh fans might disagree because he doesn't fit HCDB "system", but whatever, that argument is severely overused.

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12-23-2012, 05:21 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by CarvinSigX View Post
I'm thinking something like...

Stewart
Cole

Orpik
Despres
I think itīs fair... Despres has higher value than Cole, but heīs no guarantee for our sucking defense either. Despres is good, but also had some problems in AHL this year and IMO is overrated by our fans. I would probably do it (yeah I remember that game in PIT last year when Cole managed to neutralize Crosby). Stewart and Orpik are struggling and can benefit from changing systems. Stewart has more potential than Orpik and I guess you have to pay for potential, so thatīs it... Pens have to find another solid D-man on the market doesnīt matter what, or if there is no season this year, we can wait for our youngsters to become more ready next year. Dumoulin/Harrington could make it.

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12-23-2012, 01:08 PM
  #71
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He's been on two teams and is 25. I think you may be judging him a little bit early. Good lord. He's not even just a goal scorer. But you wouldn't know that.

He'll probably do his best work on teams that are open and more uptempo. And/or he just had one off year last year. It happens. Sometimes people just aren't as good one year. They can return. Prior to that he had two 29 goal seasons. But let me guess, the 26 games down the stretch two years ago as the Blues pushed to try to get to a playoff spot isn't a serious time.

And it's interesting that you would mention Stewart not being a hungry player, or determined. Maybe you should read his story some time. Might help you gain perspective.
Maybe, just maybe, you guys (Blues fans) are overrating Stewart.

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12-23-2012, 01:51 PM
  #72
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How are we overrating him? He had a crap year after two great ones. That's the facts. Most on this site underrate him so they can hypothetically get him for cheap. And for the record, I don't even know if I'd do that deal I posted, I just believe it's pretty close.

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12-23-2012, 02:07 PM
  #73
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How are we overrating him? He had a crap year after two great ones. That's the facts.
He's inconsistent, evident by him being benched by Hitchcock during the regular season. Nobody is going to pay full price for half the service. You're overvaluing is what I meant to say.

Quote:
Most on this site underrate him so they can hypothetically get him for cheap.
See above. People are aware of the risk, and won't happily assume he's safe because Blues fans (or any fan base) say so.

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12-23-2012, 04:11 PM
  #74
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I won't sit here and argue about it, because what am I going to do? Change your mind?

But my thoughts on Stewart have nothing to do with his play last season at all...they go back to his time in the Kingston program, said the same thing about his brother when they were each drafted, they just don't have it...can't really describe it, just my opinion, I can appreciate why someone would disregard it, but you could see in their developmental (in a system that doesn't really do a good job developing players, very loose system, renegade players, inmates run the prison) years that they were probably gonna leave something on the table...Anthony laid an egg almost completely, his brother had a chance to learn from the mistakes, but I haven't noticed a drastic change since he left Kingston...

I guess we'll see...but I'd prefer not to be the fan of the team that "gives it a try"...I want hungry players, luckily the organization feels the same way about their forwards, so it shouldn't be much of an issue...

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12-23-2012, 09:17 PM
  #75
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I won't sit here and argue about it, because what am I going to do? Change your mind?

But my thoughts on Stewart have nothing to do with his play last season at all...they go back to his time in the Kingston program, said the same thing about his brother when they were each drafted, they just don't have it...can't really describe it, just my opinion, I can appreciate why someone would disregard it, but you could see in their developmental (in a system that doesn't really do a good job developing players, very loose system, renegade players, inmates run the prison) years that they were probably gonna leave something on the table...Anthony laid an egg almost completely, his brother had a chance to learn from the mistakes, but I haven't noticed a drastic change since he left Kingston...

I guess we'll see...but I'd prefer not to be the fan of the team that "gives it a try"...I want hungry players, luckily the organization feels the same way about their forwards, so it shouldn't be much of an issue...
When a player has 2 28 goal seasons at a young age I don't think you would call that not being hungry. There have been plenty of players to have an off yr and come back were they left off. it's just not worth selling low after one season, I don't understand why people don't get that.

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