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Lockout V: Take the Long Way Home

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Old
12-22-2012, 04:53 PM
  #701
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
I don't know how you can look at what the owners have done and said and come to that conclusion. They are drawing lines in the sand and threatening to die on hills, they don't want someone to bargain with, they want someone that will accept their demands.

The league could have kept negotiations going and instead huffed and puffed about the players altering an agreement that they made clear was take it or leave it. That is not negotiating.
I can come to that conclusion because I've spent 30 years or so working in the field of litigation. I know from firsthand experience how the the game is played. I know that no matter how many times folks hang their hats on the "hill to die on" and "take it or leave it" statements as a way to condemn the league that those statements are simply rhetoric, probably brought about because they feel it may be the only way to get Fehr to stop slowing down the process.

The league has said "take it or leave it" more than once, and has come back to the table and changed their offer each time. Daly has as much as said they will do it again.

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Despite my player bias I can acknowledge that the PA has chosen to drag their feet and slow down the process, why can't the other side acknowledge that the league has slowed the process by failing again and again to get involved in any real negotiations?
Because they don't agree with you. The league has continually modified its offers throughout this entire process. Maybe not as much as you'd like. Maybe not the way you'd like, but they have done it. Have they actually hit the end of their proverbial rope? Not according to Daly, but they're apparently pretty close to it. Now is when Fehr has to evaluate the situation and decide how much of a gamble he's willing to take with the livelihoods and careers of his constituents. Fehr knows the league will move a bit more... how far he can push the owners is what he needs to decide on next.

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12-22-2012, 04:53 PM
  #702
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If they were serious about getting it done they would have waited around for the players response and kept negotiating. They didn't. They made a take it or leave it offer and walked away. That is a fact.



It's not mythical at all, if the owners do their job and grow their business they stand to make 100's of millions more with this proposal than the last.

The players have also conceded some contract rights and some sort of variance.
It's mythical because it only happens under a certain set of circumstances where the players don't actually give up anything. And this was before all of the damage. And you say they gave up some contract rights and variance. That it? That doesn't really seem like a lot for a side who is claiming to have given up a ton already and is the only side giving. Is this a two issue CBA negotiation?

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12-22-2012, 04:58 PM
  #703
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FYI. An antitrust suit will take a minimum of three years to get tried in a Federal District Court that is why disputes between management and organized labor almost never get tried. All of the action really centers on the preliminary injunction proceeding, which can get heard in six-nine months. However, it is a crap shoot at best with management having the edge, since granting one in this type of labor dispute is disfavored in the Second Circuit which is why the owners sued in New York.

Forget who is right or wrong. Both parties have made mistakes. The owners initial offer was plain stupid and only served to drive the players to Fehr, who in turn has badly overplayed his hand the last month or so.

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12-22-2012, 05:22 PM
  #704
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
If they were serious about getting it done they would have waited around for the players response and kept negotiating. They didn't. They made a take it or leave it offer and walked away. That is a fact.



It's not mythical at all, if the owners do their job and grow their business they stand to make 100's of millions more with this proposal than the last.

The players have also conceded some contract rights and some sort of variance.
The player response every time has been " no, what else have you got" The most recent offer was " We will take every thing you are giving and a bunch of stuff we have written down and a bunch of stuff we haven't even thought of yet, but no way are we giving anything up. We (and by we, we mean a bunch of old retired guys) lost the last time. All we got was tons of contract rights and doubled our pay. We want to win this time. So we will say ok no lifetime deals and only 75% variance but we will whine about even that"

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12-22-2012, 05:24 PM
  #705
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They've started the process but haven't filed, you're right, I misspoke. The players don't want to file, they want a partner to bargain with.
Indeed. Players have claimed they have agreed to 50-50 split, why hasn't the PA offered a true 50-50 split yet?

As long as PA doesn't offer a true 50-50 split, this is going nowhere.

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12-22-2012, 05:35 PM
  #706
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
If they were serious about getting it done they would have waited around for the players response and kept negotiating. They didn't. They made a take it or leave it offer and walked away. That is a fact.

The fact is if they were close the owners that were involved would have stayed, I believe a couple of them said they would stay until it was finished, and I certainly believe the players were very serious and sincere about getting it done as well.
But after Fehr came in and threw a grenade in it, it took a big step backwards. The owners realized that dealing with him was next to impossible.

That's why Bettman had that idea in the first place, he prob knew the owners and players could make ground but at some point Fehr would have to come back in and of course he didn't dissapoint. Now the owners got to see it first hand what it is like dealing with Fehr and his games so they understand why it's so hard "to get a deal done". Fehr won't allow it to get done....he will continue to side step, move goalposts, stall whatever he can do to take this thing to the brink.....and maybe further.


The fact is if they were close the owners that were involved would have stayed, I believe a couple of them said they would stay until it was finished, and I certainly believe the players were very serious and sincere about getting it done as well.
But after Fehr came in and threw a grenade in it, it took a big step backwards. The owners realized that dealing with him was next to impossible.

That's why Bettman had that idea in the first place, he prob knew the owners and players could make ground but at some point Fehr would have to come back in and of course he didn't dissapoint. Now the owners got to see it first hand what it is like dealing with Fehr and his games so they understand why it's so hard "to get a deal done". Fehr won't allow it to get done....he will continue to side step, move goalposts, stall whatever he can do to take this thing to the brink.....and maybe further

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12-22-2012, 06:19 PM
  #707
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The fact is if they were close the owners that were involved would have stayed, I believe a couple of them said they would stay until it was finished, and I certainly believe the players were very serious and sincere about getting it done as well.
But after Fehr came in and threw a grenade in it, it took a big step backwards. The owners realized that dealing with him was next to impossible.

That's why Bettman had that idea in the first place, he prob knew the owners and players could make ground but at some point Fehr would have to come back in and of course he didn't dissapoint. Now the owners got to see it first hand what it is like dealing with Fehr and his games so they understand why it's so hard "to get a deal done". Fehr won't allow it to get done....he will continue to side step, move goalposts, stall whatever he can do to take this thing to the brink.....and maybe further
I'd have to agree with this sentiment. Tanenbaum isnt easily annoyed. Please ask the players: Do you believe all teams make money? Their answer might be very informative.

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12-22-2012, 06:21 PM
  #708
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Everything went well in owners & players talks until the players demanded that Fehr should be brought in.

NHLPA has everything going against them, they just don't want to play this season.

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12-22-2012, 07:40 PM
  #709
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Everything went well in owners & players talks until the players demanded that Fehr should be brought in.

NHLPA has everything going against them, they just don't want to play this season.
Oh god, and the show goes on.

The players hired Fehr. The NHL doesn't get to decide who it will negotiate with. Once again, you have Bettman trying to dictate to the players and sideline their leadership instead of doing his job.

I swear, Bettman could declare that the players must give him their first born children and some people here would think that's a perfectly reasonable request.

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12-22-2012, 08:10 PM
  #710
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The owners need a deal that will give them a chance to make money and to make sure that holes are plugged so the CBA can last another decade so we don't have to go through this crap again. That's why it's more the a "give and take" and "meet in the middle" The owners went for a deal when Bettman and Fehr wern't there a couple weeks ago and were very serious about getting it done. but when Fehr came back in the "meet in the middle" and give and take changed again.

Fehr wants the league to give and him to take or it's not negotiating.
Then you fix the fact that revenue sharing is anemic in the NHL (as a percentage of revenue) compared to the other major North American leagues.

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12-22-2012, 08:13 PM
  #711
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Then you fix the fact that revenue sharing is anemic in the NHL (as a percentage of revenue) compared to the other major North American leagues.

large market owners reward for allowing the lockout(s) is not to share revenue like the other leagues.

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12-22-2012, 08:29 PM
  #712
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large market owners reward for allowing the lockout(s) is not to share revenue like the other leagues.
Then how do you fix the structural problems endemic to the fact that the NHL put a bunch of teams in marginal markets, soaked in the expansion and relocation, and didn't do a damn thing to grow the game and support those franchises after the fact? As long as this problem is not fixed, and there are no signs that it will be, irrelevant franchises in irrelevant locations like the Coyotes and the Panthers will be allowed to exist solely so that the league is able to cry poor and the wealthy teams are able to use their struggles as an excuse to suppress player compensation below what would occur in a free market.

The reason players in other leagues are able to accept deals that give them less revenue is that they know that the owners paying them are also doing their part to share the pie and keep the league afloat, something that doesn't seem to happen in the NHL because too many vested interests are too selfish and self-absorbed to take that step. It's disgusting how greedy the likes of MLSE and Molson are compared to the likes of George Steinbrennner (in spite of his miserly and mean-spirited reputation, though he shed the former years ago and has been more than willing to spend the Yankees to victory) or Jerry Jones, though it shouldn't be surprising given the history that the big Canadian telecom companies that own Toronto have of fleecing Canadian consumers while holding our regulators hostage with the acquiescence of inept, cowardly right-wing governments.

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12-22-2012, 09:03 PM
  #713
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Then how do you fix the structural problems endemic to the fact that the NHL put a bunch of teams in marginal markets, soaked in the expansion and relocation, and didn't do a damn thing to grow the game and support those franchises after the fact? As long as this problem is not fixed, and there are no signs that it will be, irrelevant franchises in irrelevant locations like the Coyotes and the Panthers will be allowed to exist solely so that the league is able to cry poor and the wealthy teams are able to use their struggles as an excuse to suppress player compensation below what would occur in a free market.

The reason players in other leagues are able to accept deals that give them less revenue is that they know that the owners paying them are also doing their part to share the pie and keep the league afloat, something that doesn't seem to happen in the NHL because too many vested interests are too selfish and self-absorbed to take that step. It's disgusting how greedy the likes of MLSE and Molson are compared to the likes of George Steinbrennner (in spite of his miserly and mean-spirited reputation, though he shed the former years ago and has been more than willing to spend the Yankees to victory) or Jerry Jones, though it shouldn't be surprising given the history that the big Canadian telecom companies that own Toronto have of fleecing Canadian consumers while holding our regulators hostage with the acquiescence of inept, cowardly right-wing governments.

NHL feels if they lower salary enough for the weakest teams to turn profit it will fix itself. Didn't work after "cost certainty" of 05 and wont work after this. And in 8 to 10 year after this CBA the owners will go for even more. My guess is they already told the players where they will be in ten year, 43%

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12-22-2012, 09:23 PM
  #714
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
I don't know how you can look at what the owners have done and said and come to that conclusion. They are drawing lines in the sand and threatening to die on hills, they don't want someone to bargain with, they want someone that will accept their demands.

The league could have kept negotiations going and instead huffed and puffed about the players altering an agreement that they made clear was take it or leave it. That is not negotiating.

Despite my player bias I can acknowledge that the PA has chosen to drag their feet and slow down the process, why can't the other side acknowledge that the league has slowed the process by failing again and again to get involved in any real negotiations?
If the PA wanted to negotiate they should have done so in Aug or Sep or Oct or Nov, not wait till the season was in jeopardy.

The owners have given in each of their proposals and thay have reached a point where they have given all that they are willing to give. Instead of accepting their fare offer Fehr convinced the PA that the threat of DOI will get even more. It won't because the NHL knows its just a bluff and if they follow through with it the players are ****ed.

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12-22-2012, 09:27 PM
  #715
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What gives the owners the right to say no more but not the players? Both sides need to be willing to give and take to get a deal done.
Because they're the owners and the players are the employees.

If you walk into your bosses office and demand a raise and be says 'no' what are you gonna do? Demand that he negotiate and give you a raise? Or are you going to say 'thank you' and go back to your desk?

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12-22-2012, 09:43 PM
  #716
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Because they're the owners and the players are the employees.

If you walk into your bosses office and demand a raise and be says 'no' what are you gonna do? Demand that he negotiate and give you a raise? Or are you going to say 'thank you' and go back to your desk?
Management, maintenance and staff are closer to employees in the non profit tax free NHL. The players are closer to very organized race track dogs. Aka the product

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12-22-2012, 09:52 PM
  #717
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I don't know how you can look at what the owners have done and said and come to that conclusion. They are drawing lines in the sand and threatening to die on hills, they don't want someone to bargain with, they want someone that will accept their demands.

The league could have kept negotiations going and instead huffed and puffed about the players altering an agreement that they made clear was take it or leave it. That is not negotiating.

Despite my player bias I can acknowledge that the PA has chosen to drag their feet and slow down the process, why can't the other side acknowledge that the league has slowed the process by failing again and again to get involved in any real negotiations?
The PA could have grown up and started negotiations early this year. You don't seem to acknowledge this. The PA have been very tactful just like the owners. They are playing the same game the owners are now playing, but started to plan this in January when they were too "busy" to negotiate. That's why they cried to the fans in September that they wanted to play under this CBA and negotiate. They planned this all along.

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12-22-2012, 10:14 PM
  #718
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The PA could have grown up and started negotiations early this year. You don't seem to acknowledge this. The PA have been very tactful just like the owners. They are playing the same game the owners are now playing, but started to plan this in January when they were too "busy" to negotiate. That's why they cried to the fans in September that they wanted to play under this CBA and negotiate. They planned this all along.
While being true the league did say they wanted to negotiate during the season, any fan upset over the PA not negotiating at that point has fallen spell to that glorious PR stunt. If you look at the owners PR releases they are worded in ways and come at times to make the PA look like the bad guy for not accepting. Look at how difficult it is for them to meet when its a frighin lockout. Do you honestly expect the players to be able to pay attention to negotiations and travel to meetings etc while playing the season and possible playoffs? The players are people too. Hard to keep the family life happy when youre already out of town most of the season and adding distracting CBA talks when youre concussed and acheing. Also how could the GMs make any moves without bringing up conspiracy collusion for the next CBA? One of the latest subliminal PR stunts is the CBA length, the league wants 10 years. PA wants less. Why? If the PA thinks theyre gunna get screwed this time they dont want it to last long. But to the casual fan they see the players as wanting another lockout sooner. If the PAs proposals were 10 years and people took them seriously, the owners would be the ones asking for less years.

Fans should do some research on the PR firm the NHL hired

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12-22-2012, 10:14 PM
  #719
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Management, maintenance and staff are closer to employees in the non profit tax free NHL. The players are closer to very organized race track dogs. Aka the product
They're a product that currently costs $20 to make and can only be sold for $17.

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12-22-2012, 10:24 PM
  #720
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Do you honestly expect the players to be able to pay attention to negotiations and travel to meetings etc while playing the season and possible playoffs?
Nope. There would have been absolutely no need for any players to attend any of the meetings. They would have been handled by the people hired to do that job.

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12-22-2012, 11:57 PM
  #721
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This line is getting as good as the "this is a lockout not a strike"
This IS a lockout.
NOT a strike.

There's a difference.

This is the owners' lockout. Supposedly they need to change the economics and supposedly they can't afford the current plan. So the OWNERS CHOSE to lockout the players.

Their choice.

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12-22-2012, 11:58 PM
  #722
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The PA's offers are getting worse everyday from here on out. Because every day is more damage and the PA won't accept a deal where they pay for the damage.

Owners are making this worse by the second.

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12-23-2012, 12:03 AM
  #723
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This IS a lockout.
NOT a strike.

There's a difference.

This is the owners' lockout. Supposedly they need to change the economics and supposedly they can't afford the current plan. So the OWNERS CHOSE to lockout the players.

Their choice.
They chose the lockout to avoid the inevitable strike (which is what happened the last time Fehr was in charge of a PA operating under an expired CBA, and the last time NHL games were played under an expired CBA). So really that's just clinging to semantics to try and look "better" during this mess. Games were going to be cancelled short of agreeing to a new CBA prior to the season. Much rather to lose some on the front end than the back. Even if it means losing the whole season. Rather that than to start one that never finishes.


Last edited by sparr0w: 12-23-2012 at 12:09 AM.
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12-23-2012, 12:08 AM
  #724
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The PA's offers are getting worse everyday from here on out. Because every day is more damage and the PA won't accept a deal where they pay for the damage.

Owners are making this worse by the second.
The players really have no choice in the matter. They have lost and will continue to lose money in this mess. Just as the owners have and will lose money.

It takes two to tango.

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12-23-2012, 12:10 AM
  #725
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They chose the lockout to avoid the inevitable strike (which is what happened the last time Fehr was in charge of a PA operating under an expired CBA, and the last time NHL games were played under an expired CBA). So really that's just clinging to semantics to try and look "better" during this mess.
They could have operated under a no-strike no-lockout agreement.

There is no strike.

There is a lockout.

The NHL can't blame its' decision to implement a lockout on the players.

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