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OT: NFL Buffalo signs 10 year lease extension

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Old
12-22-2012, 07:53 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by rojac View Post
Why can't Toronto have the NFL and the rest of the country can keep their minor football league?

After all, the Toronto Argonausts are a team that no one wanted to own, so the Vancouver owner had to buy them to keep them alive.
exactly

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12-22-2012, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by rojac View Post
Why can't Toronto have the NFL and the rest of the country can keep their minor football league?

After all, the Toronto Argonausts are a team that no one wanted to own, so the Vancouver owner had to buy them to keep them alive. That very fact is enough to make me lose respect for the league. Also, the very fact that I make more money than most CFLers, many of whom need to work in the off-season to make a decent living, doesn't help.
The league minimum in the CFL is $45,000 with the average being $82,000. If you need to work in the off-season making that, you suck with money.


Last edited by Killion: 12-22-2012 at 08:26 PM.
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12-22-2012, 08:16 PM
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Toronto can't support an NFL team
Why not? St. Louis and Green Bay are much smaller and have little trouble.

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12-22-2012, 08:19 PM
  #29
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The league minimum in the CFL is $45,000 with the average being $82,000. If you need to work in the off-season making that, you suck with money.
It's still not very much money.


Last edited by Killion: 12-22-2012 at 08:26 PM.
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12-22-2012, 08:30 PM
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It's still not very much money.
You can't retire off it, that's for sure. But you're not on welfare while playing.

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12-22-2012, 10:27 PM
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If I'm not mistaken Goodell is from the Buffalo area as well..
Correct. He's from Jamestown, an hour and a half south of Buffalo.

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12-22-2012, 11:02 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by rojac View Post
Why can't Toronto have the NFL and the rest of the country can keep their minor football league?

After all, the Toronto Argonausts are a team that no one wanted to own, so the Vancouver owner had to buy them to keep them alive. That very fact is enough to make me lose respect for the league. Also, the very fact that I make more money than most CFLers, many of whom need to work in the off-season to make a decent living, doesn't help.
Amongst posters on the hall of fame boards, there are reaches and then there are REACHES. And this poster is definitely reaching.

The poster seems to imply that the CFL is somehow keeping Toronto from getting an NFL team. Quite illogical.

If the market conditions were in place to support the NFL, Toronto would have an NFL team. As it stands:

1) Toronto does not have a suitable long-term venue to support an NFL team. Rogers Centre is a 54,000 seat facility with mediocre sightlines (and in some cases severly obstructed) for over 10,000 people. It would be by far the smallest facility in the NFL and one of the oldest. A new $1 billion stadium will not happen as it would require a significant influx of public money (only in exceptionally large cities is there any chance of a stadium being funded primarily by private interests). The feds have made it clear they will not fund pro sports facilities, while the province and the city can't afford such expenditures due to their deficits.

2) There is no visible owner willing to purchase the team for the reported $1 billion d required to secure an existing franchise. The NFL will not allow corporations to own a team which eliminates Rogers as a potential suiter. Who else is there?

3) Toronto has not presented itself as a viable long-term location for a profitable football team, something the NFL strongly desires amongst other things. The CFL Argos have been a poor draw (with a few exceptions) over the past two and a half decades. The NFL series has been a flop with average ticket prices being reduced from $180 to $99, no sellouts with the most recent game's attendance a measley 40,000 (many of which are reportedly freebies). Why would the league actively seek to exapnd or relocate a team to Toronto when they can't even sell out one game a year..and at prices that are cheaper than there own team would assuredly cost.

Second to that, outside of the Leafs, Toronto sports fans have shown little patience for home teams with losing records. After a few seasons of losing, the Argos, FC, Raptors and Jays have seen noticeable declines in attendance. There is no reason to suggest an NFL team in Toronto would experience anything different should they experience a few losing seasons.

So until Toronto can resolve these issues, talk of the NFL relocating or awarding an expansion team to the city is asinine.

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12-22-2012, 11:38 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
3) Toronto has not presented itself as a viable long-term location for a profitable football team, something the NFL strongly desires amongst other things. The CFL Argos have been a poor draw (with a few exceptions) over the past two and a half decades. The NFL series has been a flop with average ticket prices being reduced from $180 to $99, no sellouts with the most recent game's attendance a measley 40,000 (many of which are reportedly freebies). Why would the league actively seek to exapnd or relocate a team to Toronto when they can't even sell out one game a year..and at prices that are cheaper than there own team would assuredly cost.
The NHLNFL will never work in the sunsnow belt. But seriously, you're looking at a couple of billion $ by the time you pay for a team and a stadium. $400 million for a hockey arena with 45 dates/year is bad enough. A billion for a stadium with 10 dates/year is insane.

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12-23-2012, 04:24 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rojac View Post
Why can't Toronto have the NFL and the rest of the country can keep their minor football league?

After all, the Toronto Argonausts are a team that no one wanted to own, so the Vancouver owner had to buy them to keep them alive. That very fact is enough to make me lose respect for the league. Also, the very fact that I make more money than most CFLers, many of whom need to work in the off-season to make a decent living, doesn't help.
The very fact you dont factor in the average salary of $82 000 for 4 months worth of work just shows how ignorant your comment truly is.

The very fact that the NHL owns one the teams in the league, for the last three seasons is enough to lose respect for that league.

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12-23-2012, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by DrillingForOil View Post
The very fact you dont factor in the average salary of $82 000 for 4 months worth of work just shows how ignorant your comment truly is.

The very fact that the NHL owns one the teams in the league, for the last three seasons is enough to lose respect for that league.
He said he made more. You don't know how much he makes. And you know why the NHL owns Phoenix and it is not just one guy either.


You could have said something legitimate like 2 lockouts in 8 years.

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12-23-2012, 05:51 PM
  #36
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Why not? St. Louis and Green Bay are much smaller and have little trouble.
There aren't enough football fans in Toronto. No different than the sunbelt cities not being able to get the fans the Northern cities get for hockey. Sure there are some rabid football fans, as I said no different than the sunbelt NHL thing.

I went to the Seattle, Bills game only because the tickets were free. What a bore fest. I don't even watch football anymore but when I did I never remembered there being so much standing around. Probably because of the TV commentators keeping things interesting with their stats and what not. At home I guess you really don't notice just how much time commercials eat up. Attending the game though I swear everyone just stands around 95% of the time a contest is supposedly going on.

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12-23-2012, 05:53 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
He said he made more. You don't know how much he makes. And you know why the NHL owns Phoenix and it is not just one guy either.


You could have said something legitimate like 2 lockouts in 8 years.
You're right, I don't know how much he makes, still a very ignorant comment.

And thanks for pointing out another reason why someone would lose respect for the NHL

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12-23-2012, 07:34 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by knorthern knight View Post
The NHLNFL will never work in the sunsnow belt. But seriously, you're looking at a couple of billion $ by the time you pay for a team and a stadium. $400 million for a hockey arena with 45 dates/year is bad enough. A billion for a stadium with 10 dates/year is insane.
Exactly. Who in Toronto is going to pay for that. IT would take a very long time to recoup that money. So long it would not be worth the investment. Unless PSLs are utilized of course. But I wouldn't count on 50,000 people in Toronto spending 15,000 or so on PSLs. There aren't that many people in Toronto who are both wealthy enough and passionate about football to support those upfront costs. We're not talking about Dallas here, that's for sure.

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12-23-2012, 07:40 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
There aren't enough football fans in Toronto. No different than the sunbelt cities not being able to get the fans the Northern cities get for hockey. Sure there are some rabid football fans, as I said no different than the sunbelt NHL thing.

I went to the Seattle, Bills game only because the tickets were free. What a bore fest. I don't even watch football anymore but when I did I never remembered there being so much standing around. Probably because of the TV commentators keeping things interesting with their stats and what not. At home I guess you really don't notice just how much time commercials eat up. Attending the game though I swear everyone just stands around 95% of the time a contest is supposedly going on.
Can't remember for sure, as it was either the CFL or NFL, but apparently there is only something like 11 to 12 minutes of live action in the average football play.

Still , for some reason I love it anyways. Second favorite sport next to hockey.

IMO, if Toronto can get a second NHL team in the next half decade or so this NFL-to-Toronto business is all a moot point. At that time, the city will have reached its saturation point for pro sports teams.

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12-23-2012, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
Exactly. Who in Toronto is going to pay for that. IT would take a very long time to recoup that money. So long it would not be worth the investment. Unless PSLs are utilized of course. But I wouldn't count on 50,000 people in Toronto spending 15,000 or so on PSLs. There aren't that many people in Toronto who are both wealthy enough and passionate about football to support those upfront costs. We're not talking about Dallas here, that's for sure.
Toronto and Dallas are the same size, plus Toronto already pays for the leafs. For some reason the corporates in this area turn out for anything. The Raptors are top 10 in attendance this year too.

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12-23-2012, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by DrillingForOil View Post
You're right, I don't know how much he makes, still a very ignorant comment.

And thanks for pointing out another reason why someone would lose respect for the NHL
No problem

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12-23-2012, 09:32 PM
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A real interesting play forsure.

Looking strictly from a franchise valuation standpoint, the Bills shell out $35m cash in this deal... and give up the flexibility of moving the team for basically 8 years. They get $130m of renovations to their stadium. Was the $95m of taxpayer money worth giving up the flexibility to move the team? I personally don't think so. Yeah, they (presumably) make a little bit more money every year, but I think that franchise gains more than $95m of value by having (relative) freedom of movement. That being said, I don't have access to all the details.

As for the NFL in Toronto, this does seem like the end, for now. I think they've realized that Toronto fans are not about to go and shell out hundreds of dollars a ticket to watch the Buffalo Bills. We're a hockey city, and more importantly elitist. As long as the team remained called the Buffalo Bills, they were destined to fail in Toronto.

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12-23-2012, 09:39 PM
  #43
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A real interesting play forsure.

Looking strictly from a franchise valuation standpoint, the Bills shell out $35m cash in this deal... and give up the flexibility of moving the team for basically 8 years. They get $130m of renovations to their stadium. Was the $95m of taxpayer money worth giving up the flexibility to move the team? I personally don't think so. Yeah, they (presumably) make a little bit more money every year, but I think that franchise gains more than $95m of value by having (relative) freedom of movement. That being said, I don't have access to all the details.

As for the NFL in Toronto, this does seem like the end, for now. I think they've realized that Toronto fans are not about to go and shell out hundreds of dollars a ticket to watch the Buffalo Bills. We're a hockey city, and more importantly elitist. As long as the team remained called the Buffalo Bills, they were destined to fail in Toronto.
The Bills in Toronto series is done (Especially with the news that Rogers will convert Rogers centre to a real grass stadium in 2014/2015, in otherwords baseball only) but I wouldn't say the NFL in Toronto is done. It's not as if it was coming soon, especially considering Rogers would have to allow a single person to "own" the team and that's obviously problematic.

We'll see though, Toronto could certainly support a team but they'll likely be second fiddle to the Leafs and Blue Jays. Baseball is really the only sport that can captivate Toronto besides hockey, doubt football could do that.

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12-23-2012, 09:55 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
The Bills in Toronto series is done (Especially with the news that Rogers will convert Rogers centre to a real grass stadium in 2014/2015, in otherwords baseball only) but I wouldn't say the NFL in Toronto is done. It's not as if it was coming soon, especially considering Rogers would have to allow a single person to "own" the team and that's obviously problematic.

We'll see though, Toronto could certainly support a team but they'll likely be second fiddle to the Leafs and Blue Jays. Baseball is really the only sport that can captivate Toronto besides hockey, doubt football could do that.
Ownership is the least of the concerns... just because Rogers owns the Jays/Skydome, and a share of MLSE, doesn't mean they have to own the NFL team. In fact, a quick look at MLSE's distribution of ownership would show that they're fairly close to what the NFL would require right now.

The suggestion that baseball is really the only sport that can captivate Toronto is ludicrous, as the only time they 'captivated' Toronto was 20 years ago winning championships. The Argos (a tier-2 league team) did a pretty good job captivating Toronto on their way to winning the Grey Cup this year, and the Raptors have had great success on the business side when the team has been good on the court. TFC sold out for its first few years, despite being a pretty bad team.

As for the real grass issue... there has been absolutely no news to indicate that real grass will be coming... simply a suggestion that the Jays are exploring the option. Considering that the stadium has basically no drainage at field level, and a roof which does cover some of the field at all times... there are many many issues with trying to do that. They have real grass in Arizona -- which requires the entire field to exit the stadium when the team isn't playing. Not only is that highly impractical for a baseball team, it's impossible due to the construction and location of the Skydome -- the field is underground.... in a highly built up area.

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12-23-2012, 10:10 PM
  #45
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The Bills in Toronto series is done (Especially with the news that Rogers will convert Rogers centre to a real grass stadium in 2014/2015, in otherwords baseball only)
Real grass in no way shape or form makes it a baseball only venue.

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12-23-2012, 11:29 PM
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Real grass in no way shape or form makes it a baseball only venue.
It does because Rogers is kicking the Argo's out and when they do it. The football configuration is the reason why they don't have real grass now, too expensive to replace it all the same. It doesn't even matter that a potential NFL team would not conflict much with the Jays, Rogers seems dead set on having it used only for baseball and events that don't involve replacing the field after it's over.

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Ownership is the least of the concerns... just because Rogers owns the Jays/Skydome, and a share of MLSE, doesn't mean they have to own the NFL team. In fact, a quick look at MLSE's distribution of ownership would show that they're fairly close to what the NFL would require right now.

The suggestion that baseball is really the only sport that can captivate Toronto is ludicrous, as the only time they 'captivated' Toronto was 20 years ago winning championships. The Argos (a tier-2 league team) did a pretty good job captivating Toronto on their way to winning the Grey Cup this year, and the Raptors have had great success on the business side when the team has been good on the court. TFC sold out for its first few years, despite being a pretty bad team.

As for the real grass issue... there has been absolutely no news to indicate that real grass will be coming... simply a suggestion that the Jays are exploring the option. Considering that the stadium has basically no drainage at field level, and a roof which does cover some of the field at all times... there are many many issues with trying to do that. They have real grass in Arizona -- which requires the entire field to exit the stadium when the team isn't playing. Not only is that highly impractical for a baseball team, it's impossible due to the construction and location of the Skydome -- the field is underground.... in a highly built up area.
Ownership is a concern. We've only heard of two people in Toronto who've wanted to own a team, Ted Rogers and Larry Tanenbaum. One of those men is dead, the other doesn't have the money on his own and the talk has been Rogers/MLSE funneling money to him so he can buy the team. That's pretty clear circumvention of the NFLs no coporation rule.

Onto the other part, you're extremely underestimating the power of the Jays. It wasn't just 20 years ago, it was from the time they got a team in the late 1970s till the mid 1990s. People forget, but baseball and hockey were 1A and 1B during that time, and during the championship run, baseball probably passed hockey. You're examples with the Argos (They only really supported them for Grey Cup weekend), the Raptors and Toronto FC are really bad ant not comparable. The Argo's popularity has never come close to what the Jays were, Raptors at best were a distant second during the early Carter years and the early Bosh years. Toronto FC might have good attendence, but it's popularity is non-existant comparatively.

I assume you either don't live in Southern Ontario or tend to ignore non-hockey sports, because you're drastically undervaluing the popularity of baseball in Toronto. The most popular Toronto based athlete right now is a baseball player.

Real grass isn't just a rumour, it's an idea that's being supported the Toronto media personel who are very close to the Blue Jays organization. Also not sure why you think Rogers Centre lacks a drainage system, it has one. The field can still get wet (And it has before). You also don't need complete sun cover to grow grass. The technology is there.

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12-24-2012, 06:46 AM
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It does because Rogers is kicking the Argo's out and when they do it. The football configuration is the reason why they don't have real grass now, too expensive to replace it all the same. It doesn't even matter that a potential NFL team would not conflict much with the Jays, Rogers seems dead set on having it used only for baseball and events that don't involve replacing the field after it's over.



Ownership is a concern. We've only heard of two people in Toronto who've wanted to own a team, Ted Rogers and Larry Tanenbaum. One of those men is dead, the other doesn't have the money on his own and the talk has been Rogers/MLSE funneling money to him so he can buy the team. That's pretty clear circumvention of the NFLs no coporation rule.

Onto the other part, you're extremely underestimating the power of the Jays. It wasn't just 20 years ago, it was from the time they got a team in the late 1970s till the mid 1990s. People forget, but baseball and hockey were 1A and 1B during that time, and during the championship run, baseball probably passed hockey. You're examples with the Argos (They only really supported them for Grey Cup weekend), the Raptors and Toronto FC are really bad ant not comparable. The Argo's popularity has never come close to what the Jays were, Raptors at best were a distant second during the early Carter years and the early Bosh years. Toronto FC might have good attendence, but it's popularity is non-existant comparatively.

I assume you either don't live in Southern Ontario or tend to ignore non-hockey sports, because you're drastically undervaluing the popularity of baseball in Toronto. The most popular Toronto based athlete right now is a baseball player.

Real grass isn't just a rumour, it's an idea that's being supported the Toronto media personel who are very close to the Blue Jays organization. Also not sure why you think Rogers Centre lacks a drainage system, it has one. The field can still get wet (And it has before). You also don't need complete sun cover to grow grass. The technology is there.
Ownership -- The NFL does not have a no corporation rule. They have a rule which stipulates that a "lead" owner must own at least 10% of the team. Tanenbaum has 25% percent of MLSE, which was recently purchased at a valuation of ~$1.7 billion. Tanenbaum could quite easily give up 15% of MLSE to purchase 10% of an NFL franchise.

On the Jays -- they won back to back championships. You're comparing their business level success at a field-level success that none of the other teams have achieved in the past 45 years. I live in Toronto, a convenient 5 minute walk from the Skydome, and am a Jays fan. I'm fully aware how popular the team is, how the dome sits mostly empty for 90% of their home games, and how the only reason that people have gone in recent years is because there isn't a competing sport during the baseball season. (TFC attracts a different crowd).

Apparently the average Jays ticket is $30, the average Leafs ticket is $123. The average Jays attendance is 25/game. The average Leafs attendance is 19/game. Adjust for the number of games and attendance, and the Leafs do $96m in tickets in a given season. The Jays do $62m.... which should indicate to you their relative popularity.

Real grass is an idea -- that's it. Of course, the Toronto media supports it, but that doesn't mean it's reality. No, the technology isn't there to grow grass without natural light. It can be sustained, but not grown. As for drainage, the field of course can get wet, that doesn't mean it can be left open all the time.


Last edited by seanlinden: 12-24-2012 at 06:57 AM.
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12-24-2012, 07:07 AM
  #48
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too bad i wanted the bills to go to Toronto...could care less if it KILLS the CFL
That attitude sounds like every drunk driver on the road.

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12-24-2012, 07:14 AM
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Why? Is it a crime not to like the CFL now?
If you are Canadian and you like football then yes, it is a crime. Why not just urinate on the flag?

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12-24-2012, 09:38 AM
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If you are Canadian and you like football then yes, it is a crime. Why not just urinate on the flag?
No its not. People can like what they want and you can't control people. This attitude is ridiculous. You are not required to like everything Canadian. Do you like the CBC? Because I do and many don't. I don't insult them for it, like you just did to me.

I can also say if you feel this way why support a hockey league based in NYC? So what if its the national sport. It is based in another country.

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