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Round 2, Vote 7 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

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Old
12-23-2012, 08:52 AM
  #301
overpass
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When the Ottawa Senators suspended operations for the 1931-32 season, the Detroit Falcons picked up Connell and several other Ottawa players. Here's a season preview of the Falcons from Gazette staff writer L.S.B. Shapiro.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+falcons&hl=en

Quote:
In one fortunate deal made at a meeting of the National Hockey League one month ago, Adams filled out his team. He obtained fire, polish, and ability when he obtained Hec Kilrea, Alex Smith, Alec Connell, and Danny Cox from the crack-up of the Ottawa Senators. They may prove the driving force of a machine was strong but sluggish last year. Given condition and the right spirit, the Ottawa quartette is almost a team in itself. Surround them with hard-working rookies and they should produce results.
Quote:
How good is the Ottawa delegation and will they merge with the Falcon machine? Much depends on their frame of mind, and if newspaper reports of salary disputes are true, the temperamental Ottawans are not quite satisfied. Hec Kilrea, for one, must make good. Three years ago one of the sensations of the league, Kilrea has gone back considerably. They say last year it was lack of spirit and condition. Whatever the causes of his poor showing, Kilrea is facing the crisis of his career. He must make good with the Falcons or else pass from the major hockey picture, a man who had the ability but let life get the best of him. Connell and Alex Smith were effective with the Ottawa Senators last year and should do well again. Danny Cox is coming along by leaps and bounds and understudying for Ebbie Goodfellow at centre will do his career no harm.

The acquisition of Connell will make for a great improvement in goal. Dolly Dolson, at times a sensational performer, was inconsistent last season, and Connell will bring a steadiness and confidence to the team. Reg Noble and Alex Smith know almost all the tricks in the game, and Harvey Rockburn will give them relief. Rockburn needs a little instruction in the art of being rough without being obvious and your correspondent can think of few better teachers than Alex Smith.
Quote:
But whatever combinations Adams develops, the one the fans are going to have their eye on is that of Kilrea and Goodfellow. Here are two fast skaters, two accurate shots, two established stars coming together for the first time. They may be sensational.
First of all, I don't know the hockey credentials of Mr Shapiro. A quick google search shows that he is better known for his work as a war correspondent in WWII.

Shapiro is very optimistic about the chances of the Falcons for improvement. They would improve with the addition of the Ottawa players, but only from a 0.443 W% to a 0.479 W%. So maybe he was a bit too high on the value of Connell, Smith, and Kilrea, who were coming from a team that had only won 10 games in the previous season, after all.

Hec Kilrea seems to get the most attention from the author, possibly because his performance is a bit of a wild card and could be a key to the season. Connell seems to get grouped with defenceman Alex Smith as an "effective" and "steady" performer. He is projected to bring a "great improvement" in goal, but that may be attributed as much to the past performance of Dolly Dolson (who would not appear in another NHL game) as to Connell's projected performance.

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12-23-2012, 08:55 AM
  #302
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
Cutting down angles is very technical. And a talent. And either way, he did his job. Why does it matter if his talent was unorthodox? It's not like Clancy said he sucked at skating and so we bailed his ass out. No, it was he wasn't a good skater, so he used other methods to be the best goalie he had played with
Exactly.

Much like Hasek, just find ways to stop the puck.

We know one thing for sure about Connell. Over his career in the NHL, he allowed less goals per game than any other goalie. Ever. Period.

I would think being ranked in the top 30 is hardly an outrageous possibilty.

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12-23-2012, 09:08 AM
  #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
When the Ottawa Senators suspended operations for the 1931-32 season, the Detroit Falcons picked up Connell and several other Ottawa players. Here's a season preview of the Falcons from Gazette staff writer L.S.B. Shapiro.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+falcons&hl=en







First of all, I don't know the hockey credentials of Mr Shapiro. A quick google search shows that he is better known for his work as a war correspondent in WWII.

Shapiro is very optimistic about the chances of the Falcons for improvement. They would improve with the addition of the Ottawa players, but only from a 0.443 W% to a 0.479 W%. So maybe he was a bit too high on the value of Connell, Smith, and Kilrea, who were coming from a team that had only won 10 games in the previous season, after all.

Hec Kilrea seems to get the most attention from the author, possibly because his performance is a bit of a wild card and could be a key to the season. Connell seems to get grouped with defenceman Alex Smith as an "effective" and "steady" performer. He is projected to bring a "great improvement" in goal, but that may be attributed as much to the past performance of Dolly Dolson (who would not appear in another NHL game) as to Connell's projected performance.
In the 30-31 season Detroit was 7th in a 10 team league in goals against.

In the 31-32 season, with Connell in goal, they were 2nd in an 8 team league.

Roy Waters was the 2nd team all-star that year with the worst GAA in th league.

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12-23-2012, 09:19 AM
  #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
When the Ottawa Senators suspended operations for the 1931-32 season, the Detroit Falcons picked up Connell and several other Ottawa players. Here's a season preview of the Falcons from Gazette staff writer L.S.B. Shapiro.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+falcons&hl=en




First of all, I don't know the hockey credentials of Mr Shapiro. A quick google search shows that he is better known for his work as a war correspondent in WWII.

Shapiro is very optimistic about the chances of the Falcons for improvement. They would improve with the addition of the Ottawa players, but only from a 0.443 W% to a 0.479 W%. So maybe he was a bit too high on the value of Connell, Smith, and Kilrea, who were coming from a team that had only won 10 games in the previous season, after all.

Hec Kilrea seems to get the most attention from the author, possibly because his performance is a bit of a wild card and could be a key to the season. Connell seems to get grouped with defenceman Alex Smith as an "effective" and "steady" performer. He is projected to bring a "great improvement" in goal, but that may be attributed as much to the past performance of Dolly Dolson (who would not appear in another NHL game) as to Connell's projected performance.
My God, we should have voted Alex Smith as a Top-60 D-Men. I mean, he MUST be the main factor behind the Falcons from 7th to 2nd in goals allowed!

In others words, when end-of-the-year voting doesn't fit with actual results, I'd rather throw off the voting than the results.

Also, the article says something about "Temperamentals". I wonder what does that mean in that context.

The 2nd AST gotten by Worters CAN actually make sense : his team was beyond terrible. The only head scratcher behind that is, if he was so awesome, how could a rather-old and non-NHL-seasoned anymore Jake Forbes could play a somewhat statistically significant total of games (6) with no actual "loss" for the Amerks.

This is why Connell finishing so far in the voting makes little sense -- unless we collectively overrated guys like Ching Johnson (amongst others -- Roach getting serious AST consideration, really?!?!) and severely underrate Alex Smith.

(Just pointing up : Ebbie Goodfellow was a center at that point. Probably not Top-200 material at that position)


Last edited by MXD: 12-23-2012 at 09:26 AM.
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12-23-2012, 09:20 AM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Sure, cutting down angles is a skill. But it's a skill at just the fundamental level. We're looking for players that were above and beyond...we're not looking for guys that just "did [their] job" - we're looking for guys that were the best at their position. Connell isn't getting a lot of support for that title to be honest. Unless we're all hiding it...?

Again, I wouldn't recommend reverse justifications of statistics. I don't think that's a genuine way to evaluate. Saw it once already in this thread with Tim Thomas, we're seeing it again. Some of us are hellbent on proving the numbers right, when it should be the opposite...
Seriously, what's that mean?

Seems like a number of voters are hellbent on proving their own lists (or is it the ATD list?) right.

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12-23-2012, 09:35 AM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post

Again, I wouldn't recommend reverse justifications of statistics. I don't think that's a genuine way to evaluate. Saw it once already in this thread with Tim Thomas, we're seeing it again. Some of us are hellbent on proving the numbers right, when it should be the opposite...
Sometimes, voting results makes no sense at all, and proving that Connell finished 7th that year is AST voting is just another way of "proving a number right".

While I'm convinced Connell isn't Top-4 material this round, I'm also convinced he doesn't belong with the bottom-tier group of available goalies (to me, that's a group reserved for Cheevers and Beezer, possibly Thomas). If there's any case I'm trying to make here, it's that one.

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12-23-2012, 09:44 AM
  #307
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Speaking of which...

Who were the Detroit Falcons who obtained ASTeams votes that season?

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12-23-2012, 10:29 AM
  #308
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Well, I went searching for Connell artifacts from the 20's and posted my conclusions...pretty unimpressive relatively speaking...so in fairness, I looked into the 30's...

Shot totals from deciding game (Game 3) for 1935 Finals: Hainsworth stopped 24 in the loss (7-12-5); Connell stopped 18 in the win (6-9-3). Montreal won 4-1

In the Montreal Gazette, Connell receives some praise but it falls in line with the praise the entire team gets. Says the defense was what prevented this team from being an also-ran. Following the victory, the long article kind of goes piece by piece through the team and describes it. When it gets to Connell, he shares of paragraph...

Quote:
Alex [sic] Connell, the "Ottawa Fireman," and Cy Wentworth...shared the limelight. Each has been a veritable colossus on the Maroon defence since the series started and both showed themselves to be money players par excellence. Connell turned in equally as fine a game as last Saturday when he single handed held out the Leafs until the Maroons throw their scoring machine into high gear and once theie offensive was launched it was old Cy who crashed through the Leaf defences for the important tallies.
- Montreal Gazette, Apr. 10, 1935.

So praise of Connell, but in the context of the whole article, it's not as if he was the Conn Smythe winner, so to speak. I know it sounds like I'm taking away from him, but I have nothing against him at all. In fact, like I've said, I'm rooting for him, I want to find a treasure trove on him. But I can only report on what I actually find...

It sounds odd, but I find it strange that they didn't really single him out to start..."Each has been...both showed themselves..."

For reference, Cy Wentworth gets his own paragraph praising his play next, then Baldy Northcott gets his own soon after. Ward, Hooley Smith follow suit thereafter.

However, Connell is listed as one of the four best players in the series.

Quote:
Almost every Stanley Cup series produces a hero and a goat. There was none of the latter as the Leafs went down to gallant, but hopeless defeat at Maroons hands last night but for Maroons, great honors were won by more than one player.

Of all the Maroons, however, biggest share of the credit for the winning of the Cup went to Alex [sic] Connell, the comeback hero of the 1934-35 season; to Cy Wentworth, the hard-playing defenceman; and to Baldy Northcott and Dave Trottier, hard-shooting wingers.
Then more talk of Northcott and Wentworth follows...I'd say at least Connell was mentioned first, but the article has made it a point in other parts to talk about the roster "in order" - goalie, defence, forwards...so I'm not sure whether to read a lot into it or not...

Towards the bottom of another article on the front page, Connell is mentioned...

Quote:
Finally, Bill Thoms poked home the equalizer, scored from a scuffle as Buzz Boll got the puck out from the corner of the net. Connell had stopped harder shots but it was the in the books that the Leafs would get one. No man, not even the shutout king of the National Hockey League, could have withstood that bombardment indefinitely.
From Game 1 of the 1935 SC Finals:

First check this out...ice time figures from the game!



As you can see, the shots were 39-21 in favor of Maroons (Connell saves by period: 9-4-6-0; Hainsworth: 15-8-9-4). The score was 3-2 Maroons in OT.

Quote:
Gorman called the Montrealers the best he has ever piloted. "When they want open hockey, our team gives it to them," he said between rushes. "When they want defensive hockey, we have that too. What a team, what a team."

The Gormanites took almost as much punishment from back-slaps in the dressing-room as they did on the ice.

...

If a count of bodychecks had been kept the second period probably would have set an all-time record.

...

Some thought Cy Wentworth's goal should not have been allowed because of the pile-up on George Hainsworth. ... Chums since boyhood days in Ottawa, Alex [sic] Connell of Maroons and King Clancy shook hands warmly at the finish. It was a good night for them both. Clancy scored a goal and Connell out-pointed the Leafs.

--Maroons Score First--

Robinson shot the red team in front early in the second period, catching Russ Blinco's pass from a face-off. He was directly in front of the Toronto cage and had only to pick an open spot. Ten minutes later Frank Finnigan jammed the rebound of his own shot past Alex [sic] Connell and squared the count. Connell, who had wobbled a couple of times in handling long shots, missed Clancy's knee-high drive altogether. The King let it go as he piled into Lionel Conacher on the Montreal defence and the netman failed to see the puck at all. That made it 2-1 for Toronto.

...

Maroons paid strict attention to checking and the Leafs failed to get anywhere until the lines changed and Charlie Conacher raced in after taking Primeau's pass. The big winger missed the puck completely when he tried to shoot. After some fiddling about in the centre zone, Bill Thoms unexpectedly fired at Connell from the blue line. The puck struck Connell's skate and landed safely outside. The crowd groaned.

...A minute later Hollett made a great end to end dash, beating the big train cold. Connell blocked his backhand shot and also turned back Hec Kilrea's smash at the rebound. ...It was not very thrilling hockey because Maroons, alert and strong everywhere, checked and checked and checked.
...
Charlie Conacher got int he first serious blow of the third period, driving a low backhand shot that Connell took on his leg pads. ... The checking became tight again. The heavy body-checking departed as neither team wanted to take a chance on getting penalties.
---
In game 2 of the '35 Finals the saves went like this: 42 for Connell (21-12-9) and 16 for Hainsworth (8-4-4) in a Maroons 3-1 win.

Quote:
--Connell is Immense.--

Over this two-period stretch Alex [sic] connell, the netman Gorman brought out of the quiet retirement of an Ottawa fire-hall office last fall stopped the Leafs single-handed. Thomas Patrick scored one of his biggest victories in strategy on the last line of defence. The pale-faced Connell, veteran of 13 big-league seasons, waded into the fury of the Toronto attack to the extent of blocking 21 shots in a wild and one-sided first period. Three Montreal penalties only made him work harder and rise to greater heights. When the period was ended his team led, 1-0.
In a different piece, same paper, same day.

Quote:
Montreal Maroons demonstrated almost beyond any question of doubt., that they are superior to Toronto Maple Leafs in all positions from net to bench. Winning the first two games of the Stanley Cup series from the Leafs, both ont he latter's home ice, is convincing enough. Of course, there is the possibility that the Leafs may win three successive games but it is so remote that President Frank Calder of the NHL would be safe in handling the silver mug over to Senator Raymond, president of the Forum Company without further ado.

If the Leafs lose this series, and there's every prospect of them doing that, it will be the third year in succession that they reached the Stanley Cup Finals only to be knocked off when they were pronounced favorites.

[talks about excuses why the Leafs failed in the recent past...but says there's no excuse this time...then gives a reason]

One of the reasons for the Leafs' two defeats by Maroons is that their siege guns, Jackson, on the left wing, and Charlie Conacher, on right wing, were held in almost complete subjection by the Maroon forwards. ... All of the Maroons have played well, but their outstanding star has been Alex [sic] Connell in the nets. The latter's play has been little short of sensational.
So, if I have it right...in the '35 Finals, the goalie stats read like this:
Alec Connell (MTM): 3-0, 1.30 GAA, .952 save pct., 0 SO
George Hainsworth (TOR): 0-3, 3.24 GAA, .884 save pct., 0 SO


---
In October 1931, Ottawa dispersed Connell, Alex Smith (D) and Hec Kilrea (F), sent them to Detroit where they were due to received diminished salaries. (EDIT: as overpass notes, Ottawa suspended operations at this point...players being dispersed was normal to say the least)
---

A thoughtful retirement article for Alex [sic] Connell from the Ottawa Citizen - Oct. 20, 1937 - highlights:

Quote:
One of the greatest goaltenders in recent history of professional hockey has decided to call it a day. Speaking to The Citizen last night, Alex [sic] Connell definitely announced his retirement from the sport in which he starred for fourteen National Hockey League seasons, during the course of which he was a member of two Stanley Cup-winning teams.

[article breaks down his career in segments, then gets to 34-35]...That was one of the greatest seasons in Connell's career and he was acclaimed as the main reason why the Montrealers marched to the hockey heights. This was the second consecutive year that Gorman had piloted a Stanley Cup aggregation...

...Last year he rejoined Maroons and played for them until along in February, when he was ordered to take a rest and the netminding job was turned over to Bill Beveridge. The pudgy Ottawan continued to play great hockey for Maroons and Connell was not recalled to service, although he was with the club.
That's the most promise I've seen from an article yet and it's a retirement piece. Still something positive at least...

---

In October 1936, an article mentions that Connell is the greatest...practical joker in professional hockey.

"With his contract signed, he limped into Gorman's office a couple of days ago. He carried a crutch and calmly told T.P. he had fallen from a truck and that it was 'sure nice to have a signed a contract.'"

Connell was signed for $20,000 in Oct. of '36 (any other figures available from that time?)

Just on accident, I stumbled upon a New York Times article from Oct. 1932 that mentioned John Ross Roach, "considered one of the best goalies in the National Hockey League" - not the first time I've seen that on Roach.

Another article that refers to Connell being swept in a housecleaning maneuver, says Roach is "one of the outstanding goalies of the National League since 1921"

---

Ottawa Citizen - Jan. 17, 1933 --

Quote:
Again commenting on the Maroons' alleged offer to buy Alec Connell's contract Mr. Ahearn said. "I repeat that the Montreal Maroons have been able at any time in the past two weeks to make a bid for Connell's contract and they have not done so. They did bid for Chuck Gardiner's contract from Chicago, but balked at the $25,000 price in American funds which was asked. We are placing $10,000 value on Connell's contract and believe we are acting moderately in view of Chicago's valuation on Gardiner. But I repeat that Mr. Strachan is just kidding the Montreal public, and hasn't made a real offer for Connell at all. He has not even bothered to enter into a discussion with us over the price.

In reply to Mr. Strachan's query why the Ottawa team does not try Connell out in the nets again. Mr. Ahearn exclaimed. "Strachan must know that it is impossible to put Connell back in the nets while Beveridge is playing such a phenomenal game - the idea of 'trying Connell out' is just pure cheek. Nobody needs to try Connell out - he's in perfect shape and just as good as he was when he was hurt. He was playing wonderful hockey then too" the Ottawa prexy stated.
Gardiner was coming off of a 1st team all-star berth in 1932 and was in the midst of a 2nd team all-star season in 1933 and was valued well over Connell (2.5x) who was coming off of a season where he finished 2nd in GAA and 3rd in shutouts with Detroit...it's unclear exactly what the comparison was between Connell/Beveridge at the time, other than it's clear that Beveridge had usurped the starting role.

Another article talks of the potential transfer: (Border Cities Star - Jan. 18, 1933)

Quote:
Ottawa Senators offered Alex [sic] Connell, veteran Senators goaler, to the Montreal Maroons on an outright sale for $10,000, James Strachan, president of the Maroons of the [NHL], announced here yesterday. In the dickering that followed the Maroons offered to take Connell till the end of the season with an option to buy if he made good, it was learned. Ottawa agreed to allow him a few weeks' trial on that basis but the Maroons did not favor the scheme. Maroons offered to take Connell for the season and to pay his salary till the end of the year, it was learned. Negotiations are proceeding.
Sounds like Maroons just wanted to take him as a salary dump instead.

---

On another comeback bid by Connell, he's up against Lorne Chabot...(The Leader-Post Oct. 17, 1936)
Quote:
Manager Tommy Gorman of Montreal Maroons...said last night he had definitely decided to use Alex [sic] Connell, of Ottawa, as his net-minder this season. Consequently, Lorne Chabot, another veteran goalkeeper Maroons carry at present, may become a reserve for the NHL. Gorman announced he sought arrangements to have the league take over the veteran's contract. The league has not had a reserve goalie since Wilf Cude occupied that position in 1933.
Ok, so better than 36-year-old Lorne Chabot at the time. Chabot was a 1st team All-Star in 1935 for Chicago.

---

On his game with the Americans. Saskatoon Star-Phoenix - Mar. 17, 1934

Quote:
Connell stepped back into an active role in spectacular fashion last night in Ottawa when he replaced the injured Roy Worters and helped defeat his own teammates and may be between the posts for Rangers as the champions make their bid for a second straight Stanley Cup. It was indicated tonight both Montreal clubs would support Patrick's request. Canadiens let it be known they would have no objections to Rangers using Connell.
The reference to the Rangers (not the Americans) is because Andy Aitkenhead had a nervous breakdown and they were going to use Connell as a replacement, but it never materialized - at least not that I'm aware of.

---

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montreal Gazette - Oct. 30, 1935
Alex [sic] Connell, humorous little Ottawa Fire Department secretary, who defied the old adage and "came back" last season, and Herb Cain, young and promising left-winger are missing from the club with little prospect they will rejoin before the first whistle is blown next month.

Connell, whose sensational goaltending carried Maroons to many an victory in the last Cup chase has retired to give all his time to his duties at Ottawa, while Cain remained at home in Hamilton when he and Maroons could not see eye to eye on his salary.

In goal, Billy Beveridge, young, serious netminder of Ottawa Senators and St. Louis Eagles, will replace "Old Poker-face." Beveridge has made a hit in training camp but how he measures up to the Connell standard remains to be seen. Certainly he has never in his career had such a hard-hitting, robust defence before him as Maroons will provide.

He has a job on his hands. It was Connell's fighting spirit that pulled Maroons through the tough series with Chicago Black Hawks last year. He pleaded with his mates for "just one goal" in a pep talk, promising to shut the Hawks out. Maroons won the series on Baldy Northcott's overtime goal as Connell kept his word.

Gorman is banking on his "red line" of Hooley Smith at centre, Baldy Northcott at left wing and Jimmy Ward at right. These veterans rose to the heights last spring to hold in check two of the most famous lines in hockey in the playoffs - New York Rangers' Cook-Boucher-Cook trio and Toronto's "Kid Line."

A shade less brilliant defensively but dangerous attackers, the "blue line" of Earl Robinson at right, Russell Blinco at centre and Dave Trottier at left will fire speed at all opposition. The trio was one of the high scoring lines in the league last year.
Sorry for the long post...but I like to give context too, not just snippets if I can help it...


Last edited by Mike Farkas: 12-23-2012 at 10:59 AM.
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Old
12-23-2012, 10:46 AM
  #309
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My God, we should have voted Alex Smith as a Top-60 D-Men. I mean, he MUST be the main factor behind the Falcons from 7th to 2nd in goals allowed!

In others words, when end-of-the-year voting doesn't fit with actual results, I'd rather throw off the voting than the results.

Also, the article says something about "Temperamentals". I wonder what does that mean in that context.

The 2nd AST gotten by Worters CAN actually make sense : his team was beyond terrible. The only head scratcher behind that is, if he was so awesome, how could a rather-old and non-NHL-seasoned anymore Jake Forbes could play a somewhat statistically significant total of games (6) with no actual "loss" for the Amerks.

This is why Connell finishing so far in the voting makes little sense -- unless we collectively overrated guys like Ching Johnson (amongst others -- Roach getting serious AST consideration, really?!?!) and severely underrate Alex Smith.

(Just pointing up : Ebbie Goodfellow was a center at that point. Probably not Top-200 material at that position)
Detroit's defence corps improved quite a bit in 1931-32. The addition of Alex Smith obviously helped. Doug Young joined the team and played his first season in a fine career. Aging HHOFer Reg Noble played a full season instead of missing 10 games. Stewart Evans and Harvey Rockburn, who had played full seasons on the blueline in 1930-31, were both sent to the IHL in 1931-32. The changes on the blueline would have helped their goals against improve.

Also, Detroit's scoring dried up in 1931-32. Why? They had the same forward group as 1930-31 for the most part. They added Hec Kilrea and Frank Carson, who forced out the aging George Hay. Goodfellow, Cooper, Aurie, Lewis, and Sorrell were all still there. Could it have been an increased focus on defensive play?

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12-23-2012, 10:50 AM
  #310
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Exactly.

Much like Hasek, just find ways to stop the puck.

We know one thing for sure about Connell. Over his career in the NHL, he allowed less goals per game than any other goalie. Ever. Period.

I would think being ranked in the top 30 is hardly an outrageous possibilty.
Talent level matters as it relates to sustainability and impact. Poor goalies like Chris Osgood do not - generally - have a positive impact on their team. Thus, despite his numbers, he has not been invoked yet. His talent precludes him from the elite. It allows people with an eye for these type of things to draw the conclusion that "Osgood was not instrumental in his team's success" despite what the box score might say.

So, for me, it does matter. As a rule - a strange rule of thumb, I've developed, it turns out good players tend to be better than average players...not sure why it works out that way, but it does...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Seriously, what's that mean?

Seems like a number of voters are hellbent on proving their own lists (or is it the ATD list?) right.
It means that we see stats and we want to prove them right by any means necessary so that they hold value for others as well. Great lengths are gone to, truth stretches to cover corners it was never meant to cover.

See the quote on Connell by Clancy...a good friend and a teammate saying he was the best goalie on the Senators...and look at where it goes, "cutting down angles is a talent" and "Clancy said he was the best"

Same with Tim Thomas before, 20-year-old NCAA all-star berths, being the prize pig in the 4th or 5th best circuit in an inferior league...that's how you can tell others are being set up for a hoax, because of the justifications needed...other sources, other times, noise and confusion, distraction, all to avoid digging deeper than meets-the-eye...deeper than the box score...I don't think it's in the spirit of the project, personally. But I could very well be mistaken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Sometimes, voting results makes no sense at all, and proving that Connell finished 7th that year is AST voting is just another way of "proving a number right".

While I'm convinced Connell isn't Top-4 material this round, I'm also convinced he doesn't belong with the bottom-tier group of available goalies (to me, that's a group reserved for Cheevers and Beezer, possibly Thomas). If there's any case I'm trying to make here, it's that one.
I agree with the second paragraph. Though, I'm not convinced that the "voting [from this time period in question] makes no sense at all" though. In fact, in the research gathered to date, it seems quite justified so far. Connell was not considered an impact player very much throughout his career. You get the "above average to very good" feel - with some exception like the 1935 Playoffs, which seems to be a Smythe-worthy performance and believe he was given a retro Smythe for his efforts. So, for me right now, I think we're in good shape with him.

I don't have a dog in this fight, except I want forthright common sense and truth (as close as we can get to it given the parameters) to prevail. If after research, Connell looks like someone we should have at #25, then I want that. If after research, Connell looks like #41, then I want that.

By looking at stats alone, I would suggest he belongs at #1. I don't want that. That's why we're digging deeper than the box score to figure out what the deal was...strangely that brings out defensive overtones...I have my theories as to why...

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12-23-2012, 10:52 AM
  #311
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---
In October 1931, Ottawa basically dismissed Connell, Alex Smith (D) and Hec Kilrea (F), sent them to Detroit where they were due to received diminished salaries.
---
Great post Mike, but one addition. The Ottawa club suspended operations for 1931-32, so the fact that Connell, Smith, and Kilrea went to Detroit was no reflection on their play or quality.

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12-23-2012, 10:58 AM
  #312
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Great post Mike, but one addition. The Ottawa club suspended operations for 1931-32, so the fact that Connell, Smith, and Kilrea went to Detroit was no reflection on their play or quality.
Thank you, will edit my post to reflect that.

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12-23-2012, 11:12 AM
  #313
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With my last failure I accidently find this. It is probably the strongest defending speach to Connell. I too agree that these newspaperarticles are tricky because they give opinions only from here and there. Its wroted by sport columnist "The Coach" to Ottawa Citizen in 1945. I know it doesn´t sound promising but decided to give it anyway because it offers some refreshingly strong opinions. Calling some all star voters not qualified, Wilf Cude flash in a hockey pan and so on.

So Ottawa Citizen Nov 15,1945
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+connell&hl=en

Sorry don´t know how to quote those scanned versions.

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12-23-2012, 11:17 AM
  #314
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With my last failure I accidently find this. It is probably the strongest defending speach to Connell. I too agree that these newspaperarticles are tricky because they give opinions only from here and there. Its wroted by sport columnist "The Coach" to Ottawa Citizen in 1945. I know it doesn´t sound promising but decided to give it anyway because it offers some refreshingly strong opinions. Calling some all star voters not qualified, Wilf Cude flash in a hockey pan and so on.

So Ottawa Citizen Nov 15,1945
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+connell&hl=en

Sorry don´t know how to quote those scanned versions.
Good find, but from my readings "The Coach" never lost an opportunity to stick up for an Ottawa player, and his column should be read in that context.

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12-23-2012, 11:41 AM
  #315
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Great find, indeed. Tempered with overpass' context of it.

As for how to quote scanned versions, sanf, I type them out Technology!

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12-23-2012, 12:16 PM
  #316
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Talent level matters as it relates to sustainability and impact. Poor goalies like Chris Osgood do not - generally - have a positive impact on their team. Thus, despite his numbers, he has not been invoked yet. His talent precludes him from the elite. It allows people with an eye for these type of things to draw the conclusion that "Osgood was not instrumental in his team's success" despite what the box score might say.

So, for me, it does matter. As a rule - a strange rule of thumb, I've developed, it turns out good players tend to be better than average players...not sure why it works out that way, but it does...



It means that we see stats and we want to prove them right by any means necessary so that they hold value for others as well. Great lengths are gone to, truth stretches to cover corners it was never meant to cover.

See the quote on Connell by Clancy...a good friend and a teammate saying he was the best goalie on the Senators...and look at where it goes, "cutting down angles is a talent" and "Clancy said he was the best"

Same with Tim Thomas before, 20-year-old NCAA all-star berths, being the prize pig in the 4th or 5th best circuit in an inferior league...that's how you can tell others are being set up for a hoax, because of the justifications needed...other sources, other times, noise and confusion, distraction, all to avoid digging deeper than meets-the-eye...deeper than the box score...I don't think it's in the spirit of the project, personally. But I could very well be mistaken.



I agree with the second paragraph. Though, I'm not convinced that the "voting [from this time period in question] makes no sense at all" though. In fact, in the research gathered to date, it seems quite justified so far. Connell was not considered an impact player very much throughout his career. You get the "above average to very good" feel - with some exception like the 1935 Playoffs, which seems to be a Smythe-worthy performance and believe he was given a retro Smythe for his efforts. So, for me right now, I think we're in good shape with him.

I don't have a dog in this fight, except I want forthright common sense and truth (as close as we can get to it given the parameters) to prevail. If after research, Connell looks like someone we should have at #25, then I want that. If after research, Connell looks like #41, then I want that.

By looking at stats alone, I would suggest he belongs at #1. I don't want that. That's why we're digging deeper than the box score to figure out what the deal was...strangely that brings out defensive overtones...I have my theories as to why...
Stats are pretty much facts. They are for the most part by defintion "right".

Since no one has suggested Connell belongs at #1, doesn't that indicate that everyone is merely using the factual stat as just one aspect of rating Connell?

Also, how can you call Osgood a poor goalie? Compared to who?

And again, Tim Thomas is still the only goalie in this group to win 2 Vezinas and a Conn Smythe. Hardly a hoax.

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12-23-2012, 01:01 PM
  #317
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Detroit's defence corps improved quite a bit in 1931-32. The addition of Alex Smith obviously helped. Doug Young joined the team and played his first season in a fine career. Aging HHOFer Reg Noble played a full season instead of missing 10 games. Stewart Evans and Harvey Rockburn, who had played full seasons on the blueline in 1930-31, were both sent to the IHL in 1931-32. The changes on the blueline would have helped their goals against improve.

Also, Detroit's scoring dried up in 1931-32. Why? They had the same forward group as 1930-31 for the most part. They added Hec Kilrea and Frank Carson, who forced out the aging George Hay. Goodfellow, Cooper, Aurie, Lewis, and Sorrell were all still there. Could it have been an increased focus on defensive play?
The Falcons averaged 3.83 goals per game against the Philadelphia Quakers in 30-31. They averaged 2.07 goals per game against teams not named The Philadelphia Quakers. The 30-31 Falcons also somehow had a 10 goal game that season against the Maple Leafs (on Christmas day).

Source : NHL.com
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10 -- Most goals scored by one team in a holiday game. Eighty years ago, the Detroit Falcons (later the Red Wings) celebrated Christmas 1930 by beating the Toronto Maple Leafs 10-1.

In 31-32, the Falcons averaged 1.96 goals per game.

Bottom line : There's an actual drop, but the facts leads me to believe that playing 0 game against the Quakers in 31-32 had a bigger impact than anything else. Plus, the 10-goal game is quite an outlier : if you take it out, the 31-32 Falcons actually IMPROVED their offensive production.

Sidenote : The Philadephia Quakers has a solid claim at being the worst NHL team ever iced.

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12-23-2012, 01:09 PM
  #318
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Meanwhile

Not a single word on CuJo.

Startling statement : CuJo will be in my Top-4 this round. Too much consistency at a high level, playing with uneven teams, in direct competition with Roy, Hasek (and, to a lesser extent, Brodeur and Belfour), a few great playoff performances, great durability.

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12-23-2012, 01:33 PM
  #319
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Startling statement : CuJo will be in my Top-4 this round.
That is certainly startling to someone, like myself, who would have a hard time finding a place for him higher than last right now.

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12-23-2012, 02:07 PM
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That is certainly startling to someone, like myself, who would have a hard time finding a place for him higher than last right now.
I'm leaving at the moment, but...

Joseph had a longer "relevant" career than Beezer, and aside from a 1st AST (which was, what, 1/14 of Beezer's career?! And came when the competition was not exactly strong), I fail to even see how Beezer comes close to Joseph.

Then you have the fact that Beezer platooned for a while, something Joseph never really did.

I think consistency is extremely important in the Post-WHA-Merger era. Joseph gave its teams just that.

And... Gerry Cheevers... really?!?!?!?!

(I just covered the possibly candidates for last spot : not tackling on Thomas, Barrasso because I don't see them as plausible "lasts", but they can be according to some metrics... I guess.)

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12-23-2012, 02:09 PM
  #321
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The case for CuJo makes me think --- is there's something like a WAR stat for hockey?

A guy like Cujo would absolutely shine by that metric. AT least, I suspect so.

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12-23-2012, 02:10 PM
  #322
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Stats are pretty much facts. They are for the most part by defintion "right".

Since no one has suggested Connell belongs at #1, doesn't that indicate that everyone is merely using the factual stat as just one aspect of rating Connell?

Also, how can you call Osgood a poor goalie? Compared to who?

And again, Tim Thomas is still the only goalie in this group to win 2 Vezinas and a Conn Smythe. Hardly a hoax.
- pretty much, for the most part, kinda, sorta...real answer: they are half-truths. They may be accurate in and of themselves, but they may not accurately portray a given situation. As we're coming to realize (hopefully...).

- Inconsistent effort. The fact that Connell is brought up and defended so vehemently is strictly statistically based because there isn't all that much else really. Unless you have something?

- Osgood was poor compared to his contemporaries in terms of talent and technical ability. League GMs believed in him early, as he fit in better earlier. Pre-1994 goalie in a post-1994 world, so to speak. Very evident in his limitations. As time went on, Osgood did not improve, fell well behind his contemporaries. GMs took notice, were not fooled.

- Good reason why he's still out there - some people refused to get sucked in. Won't discuss a goalie further that doesn't deserve attention at this point however, respectfully.

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12-23-2012, 02:20 PM
  #323
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- Inconsistent effort. The fact that Connell is brought up and defended so vehemently is strictly statistically based because there isn't all that much else really. Unless you have something?
31-32 AST voting for goalies is weird to say the least, for reasons covered above.

Clancy considered him the best goalie he played with. Better than Clint Benedict. And while Benedict was a bit old, it's not THAT relevant, because he still added quite a lot to his legacy by the time he was a teammate of Clancy, and if you take out those Sens years (and obviously, everything he did afterwards), we're probably voting for him in this very round.

Technicals are technically irrelevant. Results are what matters (give a large meaning to "results")

Consistency : IF anything, he appeared to have been a pretty consistent goaltender, as least as far as his stats are concerned (one season looks bad, but he was in a terrible setting -- it doesn't mean he was really bad). Didn't have off years like some of his contemporaries appeared to (Tiny Thompson is the first to come to mind in that regard).

I also dare you to find a post (from me) that was based solely on statistics...

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12-23-2012, 02:26 PM
  #324
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- Clancy and him were BFFs since childhood, I'm sure that had a little to do with it.

- If results were all that mattered, perhaps you would have signed Roman Cechmanek in 2003...been looking for work in 2004...more to the game than what's printed on paper.

- "Inconsistent effort" was not a reference to Connell.

- You don't have to dare me to do anything, I'm just looking at what's in front of me now. And hoping to fuel a well-informed decision for a list that I want to be proud of.

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12-23-2012, 02:26 PM
  #325
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Is it possible to submit the votes in advance?
I might be away from Dec 27 to Dec 29, and I usually like to take more than 5 minutes to fill in my vote...
If you're going to be away, PM me to make other arrangements. It's the holidays, so we'll be extra flexible this time.

Like for instance, I haven't been around to respond to this until now.


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