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Lockout continues Part V - Hockey cancelled till January 14th

View Poll Results: OWNERS OR PLAYERS, who do you support
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Old
12-23-2012, 05:23 PM
  #876
The Naz
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Originally Posted by p.l.f. View Post
who would u draft 1st?
stamkos ? quick ?
I don't think it would be a draft. If the league wants to cancel all contracts, its total Free Agency for all.

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12-23-2012, 05:30 PM
  #877
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The Leafs had free reign to spend prior to 2004 and they didn't do any such thing. They fell short of acquiring all of the star players, just like they're doing now. The Wings, Flyers, and Devils had contenders before, and they still have contenders now even though they had the same thing happen to them that the "mighty" Leafs did.

Who cares if MLSE's money goes to other teams or their own bank vault. It's all just excuses for terrible management.
That is so false.

The Leafs brought in the likes of Cujo, Mogilny, Roberts, Nieuwendyk, and traded for expensive players like Leetch and Nolan. They spent lots of money.

The reason the Leafs are in such a bad situation is because of the Muskoka 5 and their refusal to waive ntc's and ownerships meddling during JFJ's tenure.

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12-23-2012, 05:33 PM
  #878
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who would u draft 1st?
stamkos ? quick ?
Kessel.

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12-23-2012, 07:44 PM
  #879
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Like I said...no explanation can be given to me why a Leafs fan...OF ALL THE TEAMS IN THE LEAGUE...would support the NHL's agenda.

A fan of the Predators? Sure. Makes sense why you like Bettman. As a fan of the Leafs.....what are you talking about?!?!
I don't think it's right to have a league where money is the biggest factor determining success.

A capped league where a gm has to actually use his brain is a superior league IMO.

Under the old CBA, the leafs had a $16 million advantage over a lot of the competition, and we still couldn't make the playoffs even once.

Leaf fans should be furious at leaf management specifically, not the CBA or the owners as a whole.

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12-23-2012, 07:47 PM
  #880
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
That is so false.

The Leafs brought in the likes of Cujo, Mogilny, Roberts, Nieuwendyk, and traded for expensive players like Leetch and Nolan. They spent lots of money.

The reason the Leafs are in such a bad situation is because of the Muskoka 5 and their refusal to waive ntc's and ownerships meddling during JFJ's tenure.
They were routinely out spent by DET, NYR, COL, PHI and DAL.

It is different ownership now though. But they still had to get a go ahead from Stavros then the board after he sold.

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12-23-2012, 07:55 PM
  #881
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In order for the NHL to make big time money, they need the lucrative American national television deals.

In orde to get that, the league needs successful franchises in places like Florida and Phoenix etc.

In order for those teams to acquire a fan base, those teams need a fighting chance in the standings.

In order for those teams to have a fighting chance in the standings, they new to be protected by a favorable CBA.

That CBA should be a combination of a strong cap and revenue sharing. The exact numbers surrounding that cap and shared revenue is the reason for the lockout.

I'm just fed up with pro pa people saying things like "why are there teams in places like Phoenix in the first place?"

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12-23-2012, 08:32 PM
  #882
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
In order for the NHL to make big time money, they need the lucrative American national television deals.

In orde to get that, the league needs successful franchises in places like Florida and Phoenix etc.

In order for those teams to acquire a fan base, those teams need a fighting chance in the standings.

In order for those teams to have a fighting chance in the standings, they new to be protected by a favorable CBA.

That CBA should be a combination of a strong cap and revenue sharing. The exact numbers surrounding that cap and shared revenue is the reason for the lockout.

I'm just fed up with pro pa people saying things like "why are there teams in places like Phoenix in the first place?"
why are there? I mean it's a dessert no ice lol... Why does Florida have 2 teams and Toronto has 1? lol That makes as much sense as putting the Winter Olympics in Arizona

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12-23-2012, 11:06 PM
  #883
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why are there? I mean it's a dessert no ice lol... Why does Florida have 2 teams and Toronto has 1? lol That makes as much sense as putting the Winter Olympics in Arizona
Florida the state has 20 million people. Toronto has less than 2 million.

I don't think a city has to be cold with frozen lakes and rivers to be a good NHL hockey city. If that were the case, then Vancouver would be a bad hockey city.

The reason there are NHL teams in places like Phoenix is because it is essential to getting the lucrative national television deals.

I don't think people in Phoenix have some magical anti hockey gene. It's a very big city that could feasibly grow into a hockey market.

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12-23-2012, 11:15 PM
  #884
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Florida the state has 20 million people. Toronto has less than 2 million.

I don't think a city has to be cold with frozen lakes and rivers to be a good NHL hockey city. If that were the case, then Vancouver would be a bad hockey city.

The reason there are NHL teams in places like Phoenix is because it is essential to getting the lucrative national television deals.

I don't think people in Phoenix have some magical anti hockey gene. It's a very big city that could feasibly grow into a hockey market.
hahahahha Because the only people who go to leaf games are the DOWNTOWN TORONTO people? please... theres 10 of millions of people in the GTA and surrounding areas...

and yes when a STATE LIKE FLORIDA HAS 2 TEAMS, I dont care if they have 2038230981203 million people... they can't support 2 NHL team and it's a disgrace that Toronto has only 1 when it could prob support 3 in reality...

Texas has 24 million people maybe they should have another team too

and btw did you just compare a State (Florida) to a City (Toronto)? :you =fail lol:


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12-23-2012, 11:30 PM
  #885
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Florida the state has 20 million people. Toronto has less than 2 million.

I don't think people in Phoenix have some magical anti hockey gene. It's a very big city that could feasibly grow into a hockey market.
The Golden Horseshoe has something like 9 million people in it. So within a few hours drive of ACC, that's how many people there are. Markets don't just BECOME hockey markets, it's started at the grassroots level and is developed. In Florida, hockey is behind basketball, baseball, the NFL, college football and I'd venture to say NASCAR as well. Which one of those do you see hockey overtaking?

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12-23-2012, 11:49 PM
  #886
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Florida the state has 20 million people. Toronto has less than 2 million.

I don't think a city has to be cold with frozen lakes and rivers to be a good NHL hockey city. If that were the case, then Vancouver would be a bad hockey city.

The reason there are NHL teams in places like Phoenix is because it is essential to getting the lucrative national television deals.

I don't think people in Phoenix have some magical anti hockey gene. It's a very big city that could feasibly grow into a hockey market.
Nope.

5.5M in the GTA. 2.5M in the city alone.

http://toronto.ca/toronto_facts/diversity.htm

That's the simplest thing for anyone to find info on.

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With a population of 8.76 million people in 2011, the Golden Horseshoe makes up over 26% of the population of Canada and contains more than 68% of Ontario's population
http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Horseshoe

Disputing the potential for fans in Fla vs ON isn't one of the better arguments I've seen around here.

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12-23-2012, 11:52 PM
  #887
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Originally Posted by Hurt View Post
The Golden Horseshoe has something like 9 million people in it. So within a few hours drive of ACC, that's how many people there are. Markets don't just BECOME hockey markets, it's started at the grassroots level and is developed. In Florida, hockey is behind basketball, baseball, the NFL, college football and I'd venture to say NASCAR as well. Which one of those do you see hockey overtaking?
No kidding. You put another team in the Golden Horseshoe anywhere and it instantly becomes the areas #1 sport. It will compete with the Leafs for fans, but it will dominate everything else. Although the Jays may give it a run this year.

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12-24-2012, 02:42 AM
  #888
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No kidding. You put another team in the Golden Horseshoe anywhere and it instantly becomes the areas #1 sport. It will compete with the Leafs for fans, but it will dominate everything else. Although the Jays may give it a run this year.
If you do that and can keep the prices low(ish), then I think you see Buffalo take a huge hit.

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12-24-2012, 06:55 AM
  #889
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It's a bit amusing to see that a lot of fans are just as greedy, and selfish as the players are.

"I don't care what happens to the league, or the popularity of the game, as long as the Leafs end up in a position to buy up most of the talent."

"Why do teams like PHX need 41 home games, anyways?"

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12-24-2012, 07:17 AM
  #890
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It's a bit amusing to see that a lot of fans are just as greedy, and selfish as the players are.

"I don't care what happens to the league, or the popularity of the game, as long as the Leafs end up in a position to buy up most of the talent."

"Why do teams like PHX need 41 home games, anyways?"
SOrry but every morning I wake up (when there is an NHL season) I don't ask myself, gee i wonder how the NHL is doing relative to the big three sports in the USA?....no I wonder how the **** the Leafs are going to put together a win streak due to them being the worst team to come out of the last lockout.

If that's me being selfish, then sure I'm selfish. But I am a Leafs fan, not an NHL fan. I don't give a **** how the NHL is faring against the big three. I care how my team fares within that system.

Why would we assume they will do any better under FURTHER restrictions to cap and free agency?

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12-24-2012, 08:36 AM
  #891
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Yeah, I'd have to agree there's no particular correlation between the salary cap and the Leafs not doing well. Nor do I think the removal of the cap would result in some kind of superstar stampede to Toronto.

The desire to pursue the very top talent has to be there first, no matter what the economic system in place.

I'm encouraged by what the Jays have been doing -- that's the magnitude of change required for the Leafs to start being relevant again.

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12-24-2012, 08:42 AM
  #892
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It's a bit amusing to see that a lot of fans are just as greedy, and selfish as the players are.

"I don't care what happens to the league, or the popularity of the game, as long as the Leafs end up in a position to buy up most of the talent."

"Why do teams like PHX need 41 home games, anyways?"
Why does Phoenix deserve a team when they won't support one today with near lowest ticket prices and one that won the Pacific division.

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12-24-2012, 08:43 AM
  #893
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Yeah, I'd have to agree there's no particular correlation between the salary cap and the Leafs not doing well. Nor do I think the removal of the cap would result in some kind of superstar stampede to Toronto.
Buddy. The Leafs haven't made the playoffs once since the last CBA was put in place. Wuddya mean no correlation? I'd say that's a direct correlation.

Soft cap: playoffs, conference finals, success...

Hard salary cap with huge slash in players cuts: no playoffs EVER

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The desire to pursue the very top talent has to be there first, no matter what the economic system in place.
There is a desire. BUt you just end up screwing over your team in the long-run. Youre telling me Burke didn't want top talent when he sent two firsts away for a winger?

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I'm encouraged by what the Jays have been doing -- that's the magnitude of change required for the Leafs to start being relevant again.
Youre comparing baseball with no spending limits to hockey with a hard salary cap. Dude, you really need to understand the differences between the sports.

The Leafs are absolutely hampered by the cap.

If there was no cap, there would be no reprecussions in them acquiring Kovalchuk for $100 million or Shea Weber for $130 million or Brad Richards for $80 million. Whatever.

Notice how Phoenix spends a huge portion of their revenues on players?

What if the Leafs did by the same proportion as that team? Our player budget would be like $200 million a season.

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12-24-2012, 09:25 AM
  #894
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Originally Posted by Volcanologist View Post
Yeah, I'd have to agree there's no particular correlation between the salary cap and the Leafs not doing well. Nor do I think the removal of the cap would result in some kind of superstar stampede to Toronto.

The desire to pursue the very top talent has to be there first, no matter what the economic system in place.

I'm encouraged by what the Jays have been doing -- that's the magnitude of change required for the Leafs to start being relevant again.
We can only compare before the cap and after the cap. Correct?

We have lived through the absolute worst stretch of Leafs hockey in existence.

If it isn't the cap then it is the management.


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12-24-2012, 09:38 AM
  #895
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JFJ was probably the worst GM in the history of mankind.

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12-24-2012, 09:40 AM
  #896
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JFJ was probably the worst GM in the history of mankind.
And waht has changed since then?

We've actually gotten worse with Burke running the **** show.

MLSE is pulling the strings in case you haven't been following along. They are intentionally sabotaging the team on Bettman's orderss to make way for small market teams.

The leafs will make money whether they are in the playoffs or out so they are exchanging regional monopoly protection (no Balsillies allowed) in return for perenially screwing up their team and finishing last after giving away their first round picks.

Refer to post #855 for additional info!

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12-24-2012, 10:42 AM
  #897
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And waht has changed since then?

We've actually gotten worse with Burke running the **** show.

MLSE is pulling the strings in case you haven't been following along. They are intentionally sabotaging the team on Bettman's orderss to make way for small market teams.

The leafs will make money whether they are in the playoffs or out so they are exchanging regional monopoly protection (no Balsillies allowed) in return for perenially screwing up their team and finishing last after giving away their first round picks.

Refer to post #855 for additional info!
Conspiracy theorist? Interesting thought. I always love a good conspiracy theory but in this case I have to put it down to just incompetence....horrible management. Agreed that MLSE is pulling the strings which fans seem to overlook when judging JFJ's tenure.....the whole Sundin debacle and the dismal on ice performance for many years now....doesn't seem to matter who is managing. Burke has been just as dismal as his predecessors....Dont buy the whole building the prospect pool crap as the prospect pool seems middle of the road to me....As much as I dislike Burke I believe his agenda was set by MLSE as well....that is in order to secure the position he simply told them what they wanted to hear...like many of us do in job interviews.....and he fell flat on his face...and now is scrambling to right the ship. Is it going in the right direction? Who knows. Getting younger is not necessarily a guarantee to success...Time will tell if his youth movement is made up of the right stuff or just another bunch of guys trying to make an NHL living like the last bunch of prospects shuffled through this franchise.

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12-24-2012, 10:50 AM
  #898
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JFJ was probably the worst GM in the history of mankind.
Hahaha....Gerry MacNamara? Ballard's right hand man was embarrassingly awful.

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12-24-2012, 10:54 AM
  #899
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Why does Phoenix deserve a team when they won't support one today with near lowest ticket prices and one that won the Pacific division.
Technically, the 5-6 teams who are keeping the league alive on life support are the only ones who "deserve" a team. And those teams can only manage by price gouging their customers in order to pay for the ridiculously escalating player salaries (12%-15% per season).

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12-24-2012, 10:54 AM
  #900
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Florida the state has 20 million people. Toronto has less than 2 million.

I don't think a city has to be cold with frozen lakes and rivers to be a good NHL hockey city. If that were the case, then Vancouver would be a bad hockey city.

The reason there are NHL teams in places like Phoenix is because it is essential to getting the lucrative national television deals.

I don't think people in Phoenix have some magical anti hockey gene. It's a very big city that could feasibly grow into a hockey market.
People in Florida and Arizona are probably culturally conditioned to not go to a hockey game. Those guys hanging out in the everglades or Miami Beach or whatever probably have other things to spend their entertainment dollars on, just like the vast majority of Torontonians don't have a gene against watching cricket, but we still likely won't pay to watch cricket.

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