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Old
07-04-2012, 07:06 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Filips Tuba View Post
Chara and Lucic were on the ice when Cooke blindsided Savard.

The idea that "tough" players prevent people from taking runs is fantasy.

Sens are fine, in fact cutting out all those PIMS will be a positive. This team was shorthanded way too much last season.
It is funny when people inject a little common sense into these threads...

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Old
07-04-2012, 07:18 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruiser View Post
I don't know if McIlrath has that much more potential than Gryba or Sdao. Considering that Sdao and Gryba are very similar players to McIlrath, it might be better to just stick with them.
Wasn't McIlrath a late 1st rd pick? Gryba was a 3rd i think & Sdao 7th, I would assume that McIlrath has a bit more talent then those two but I hope both are working hard to become that much better & tougher to play against.

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Originally Posted by H2ODP View Post
[The idea that 'tough' players have any kind of effect is not even a question because it is universally accepted among coaches and anyone that has extensive, heck, even a moderate knowledge of hockey that they do have an effect. I can accept if fans think Carkner or Konopka are liabilities, and that the Sens have improved skill-wise with the replacements brought in. Fine. But to say they had no effect in protecting other players on the team, or that their mere presence didn't make everyone feel an inch taller, is beyond comprehension.

The mentality of Sens fans in particular that take the approach that they have no effect, must not remember the Senators from the early 2000's during the Jacques Martin era. Most people that post here now days weren't around, but the number one thing fans wanted back then was toughness. These last few years Ottawa has had sufficient toughness, these types of players have become taken for granted. Go ask a Montreal fan how bad they want a player with toughness. You don't realize how valuable those types of players are until you lose them.

Now, I think we'll be fine with the toughness on the team, probably middle of the pack in the league. But I take exception to the idea that 'tough' players have no effect or offer no protection.
Excellent post.

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Originally Posted by Bruiser View Post
That is because fights are supposed to create momentum shifts and if they are picked at inopportune times then that momentum can actually work against the team. Back in 2009 the Flyers were killing the Penguins in the playoffs, then Carcillo picked a fight against Talbot when they didn't need momentum and it brought the penguins back into the series. That momentum shift actually played a big role in Pittsburgh winning the series. Essentially Talbot getting into a fight created a positive momentum shift for the Penguins.

The important thing is to have fighters on the team (or players who are simply willing to fight) that fight at the right times or for the right reasons. Carkner fighting Boyle did in fact inspire the team to compete harder, it helped boost their confidence.

Now team toughness isn't only about fighting. That appears to be a big misconception in this forum. Team toughness is about being tough to play against both physically and mentally. A tough team has sufficient amount of nastiness in the lineup. They have players that hit hard and are relentless while also trying to agitate the opposition. We saw this, this year in the playoffs with LA's relentless forechecking.

My biggest concern about team toughness for the sens is that we lack mean and nasty players. Our players, while having decent size and some having decent grit, are simply too nice. Any time Neil is out of the lineup, we stop hitting and if we are down by a couple of goals we don't have anyone to generate a momentum shift with a big hit or a fight. Like I have said before, we need more players like Neil.

The good thing is that we have players in the system to help supplement that physicality that Neil brings. We have skilled players who are also decent hitters like Zibanejad, Noesen and Stone. Then we have some nasty players like Gryba, Borowiecki, Blood, Dziurzynski and Kramer.
Couldn't agree more & have been saying this for yrs, we have too many nice guys & need nastier players that teams hate to play against.

I mentioned once that i thought Stone would be a tough player in the NHL with his size & that he has had a few fights in the WHL. Of course, I was flamed for it some don't thing he is very tough at all. I guess we will see.

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07-15-2012, 01:30 PM
  #78
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Quote:
OTTAWA -- Even with Chris Neil signed, sealed and delivered through the 2015-16 season, Senators general manager Bryan Murray concedes the team needs to add more toughness.

"I don't think there are any players sitting out there (in free agency)," Murray said after the team officially announced Neil's three-year, $5.75-million US extension Thursday. "At some point in the near future, we will have to address that in another form."

"We have to address that vacancy somehow and we will do that, but (Neil) has still got to play that role for us, hopefully with the assistance of other players," said Murray.

Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Chris+N...#ixzz20iHk8AWB
It will be interesting to see how Murray addresses it.

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Old
07-15-2012, 01:53 PM
  #79
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Of all the players we lost lately, losing Carkner almost hurt the most for me. That presence was so valuable. I cant blame the Isles for offering him one of those last Laraque type contracts.

Of course, having Carkner isnt going to prevent other teams from cheap-shotting Isles star players - it just allows them to hold teams accountable for it. The liberties you will take when you are going to be held accountable for it, are quite different than those you will take when thinking there will be no consequences. Surely we've all seen enough NHL examples of that with our own eyes not to question it?

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Old
07-15-2012, 04:07 PM
  #80
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Team toughness is not about the size of your team always but about how you play:
Brad Marchand 5'9 183 lbs
Mike Richards 5'11 199lbs
If the Murray's feel that we can move forward with the prospects we have then great. Losing Foligno is tough but maybe Methot and Cowen will up the anty and create a hard defence to play against which is also effective. Forwards wise as long as we finish checks and stick up for one another I dont really care about being a league leading fighting team.

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Old
07-15-2012, 04:49 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derriko View Post
Without toughness you become the Buffalo Sabres and get your star player destroyed by Lucic.

That never would have happened to us with Carkner on the ice. Neil would stand up for us, but Lucic is too big for Neil. Carks is the only one to "deter" him in the first place. Don't forget we play in a division with the Bruins.

We were one of the only teams to match them or stand up to them last year, and now were not
Cowen is Bigger than Lucic.

Neil is the only player I've ever seen smiling at the end of a fight in which he was bleeding.

With the Bruins, I'm honestly more concerned with Marchand. He doesn't back up his dirty hits with fights. He lets guys like Chara and Lucic do it for him.

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Old
07-16-2012, 02:41 PM
  #82
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Hopefully we can pick up an unknown Carkner style player for a song! It's not like we are at the top of the salary cap!

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07-16-2012, 08:59 PM
  #83
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Carkner was a more than a fighter. He hurt people and was ruthless when sticking up for a team mate. Players taking liberties on our players didn't just have to answer the bell, they risked injury fighting that guy. Big difference.

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Old
12-23-2012, 10:03 PM
  #84
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I see that Pierre Cedric Labrie is a free agent this off season, I would give him a one year one way contract for the 2013-2014 season. Every time Bingo plays Syracuse, I find that Labrie is fairly noticeable on the ice. Aside from his physical game, he seems to be a good agitator and actually has a bit of offensive skill for a fighter. I think he would fill in well as the 13th forward and we could play him against some of the more physical teams like LA, Boston, Philadelphia and Pittsburgh.


Aside from that, I have been impressed with Dziurzynski's play this season and think that he has a real good chance of making the team next season. Adding Dziurzynski and Labrie to go along with Neil, Smith and Greening would make the sens pretty tough up front. Then there is also the chance that Stone and Zibanejad make the team and they are both fairly physical players as well. I could also see Murray aggressively going after Perry, and if he manages to sign him then that will add a lot of toughness to our top six.


On defense, it looks like Borowiecki and Gryba are pretty close and there is also some speculation that Sdao may be able to push for a spot as soon as next season. Add two of them to Cowen and Methot and we one of the tougher defenses in the league.

I could see the sens lineup looking something like this in 2013-2014

Forwards
Zibanejad-Spezza-Perry
Michalek-Turris-Silfverberg
Greening-Hoffman-Stone
Dziurzynski-Smith-Neil
Labrie, O'Brien

Defense
Methot-Karlsson
Wiercioch-Cowen
Gryba/Sdao/Borowiecki-Phillips
Gryba/Sdao/Borowiecki

Goalies
Anderson
Lehner

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Old
12-23-2012, 10:31 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruiser View Post
I see that Pierre Cedric Labrie is a free agent this off season, I would give him a one year one way contract for the 2013-2014 season. Every time Bingo plays Syracuse, I find that Labrie is fairly noticeable on the ice. Aside from his physical game, he seems to be a good agitator and actually has a bit of offensive skill for a fighter. I think he would fill in well as the 13th forward and we could play him against some of the more physical teams like LA, Boston, Philadelphia and Pittsburgh.


Aside from that, I have been impressed with Dziurzynski's play this season and think that he has a real good chance of making the team next season. Adding Dziurzynski and Labrie to go along with Neil, Smith and Greening would make the sens pretty tough up front. Then there is also the chance that Stone and Zibanejad make the team and they are both fairly physical players as well. I could also see Murray aggressively going after Perry, and if he manages to sign him then that will add a lot of toughness to our top six.


On defense, it looks like Borowiecki and Gryba are pretty close and there is also some speculation that Sdao may be able to push for a spot as soon as next season. Add two of them to Cowen and Methot and we one of the tougher defenses in the league.

I could see the sens lineup looking something like this in 2013-2014

Forwards
Zibanejad-Spezza-Perry
Michalek-Turris-Silfverberg
Greening-Hoffman-Stone
Dziurzynski-Smith-Neil
Labrie, O'Brien

Defense
Methot-Karlsson
Wiercioch-Cowen
Gryba/Sdao/Borowiecki-Phillips
Gryba/Sdao/Borowiecki

Goalies
Anderson
Lehner
YOU WILL not see many teams with a"goon". Toughness now means they can hit, win battles in corners, and fight if they need to. I AGREE with the fact that several tough guys who can play the game to a higher level who are not quite as tough in the pugilistic part of the game, are better for the team overall. You not see Boro and Gryba fighting much because the both have nagging injuries recieved in a fight, and Cowen is out for the year. HOWEVER THEY STILL CAN BE TOUGH.

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Old
12-23-2012, 10:35 PM
  #86
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As long as Dziurzynski is on the roster, we'll have enough toughness.

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Old
12-24-2012, 12:30 AM
  #87
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That's not even close to remotely true.

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Old
12-24-2012, 02:22 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuckman44 View Post
YOU WILL not see many teams with a"goon". Toughness now means they can hit, win battles in corners, and fight if they need to. I AGREE with the fact that several tough guys who can play the game to a higher level who are not quite as tough in the pugilistic part of the game, are better for the team overall. You not see Boro and Gryba fighting much because the both have nagging injuries recieved in a fight, and Cowen is out for the year. HOWEVER THEY STILL CAN BE TOUGH.
I'm confused. Not one of the players that I suggested as being added to the roster next year would be classified as a "goon". All the players I listed are physical, hit hard and can be very tough to battle against in the corners. They are also very willing to fight to defend their teammates which is a good thing. On top of that, all the players I listed can actually contribute to the team both offensively and defensively. None of them are liabilities that you throw out on the ice for a shift to fight and then keep them on the bench the rest of the game.

Even Labrie is a reliable player that can be used for a regular shift. Here is what Guy Boucher had to say about him:

[QUOTE] "What sets him apart from some of the other big, physical guys that you might think are fighters is he plays very smart — very, very smart," Lightning coach Guy Boucher said. "He's never caught out of position. He's very safe, very reliable. He's just not a guy you have at the end of the bench that you put him out there when you need a hit or a fight or whatever. He can play the game." http://www.tampabay.com/sports/hocke...htning/1212291
[QUOTE]

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