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Lockout V: Take the Long Way Home

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Old
12-24-2012, 12:41 AM
  #751
me2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuklaNation View Post
Two more letters.

BS

The issue re:Fehr not negotiating until the lockout began is a total red herring and is irrelevant to the current status anyways.
Only if you feel compelled to justify it.

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Old
12-24-2012, 01:15 AM
  #752
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post


I keep hearing this, so someone is going to have to explain to me why, then, the league asked not once, but twice, to begin negotiations starting over a year ago.

soooo what, the owners/Bettman could have given their 43% offer a year earlier?

the stalling/leveraging has been evident on both sides of the table from the onset of negotiations so dont try and play it like the players and Fehr are the only ones dragging their feet

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Old
12-24-2012, 01:44 AM
  #753
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Fehr was going to stall until the last second anyway. Hell, he might be more interested in using this season to set up for his finale through next year.
MOD


Last edited by Fugu: 12-24-2012 at 04:03 AM. Reason: wrong forum for this stuff
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Old
12-24-2012, 02:07 AM
  #754
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
Link? When did he ever promise to sign a legal agreement to play with no CBA and not strike?
http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey...ew-labour-deal

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12-24-2012, 02:28 AM
  #755
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
"did not rule out" doesn't mean he offered it.. this is ****ing lawyer language and every single word counts :-)

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12-24-2012, 02:31 AM
  #756
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
how did you get he was willing to sign off on a no strike policy out of that? Sounded more like a veiled threat than anything. What I find more curious is that Bettman made a reference to a short period of time, which Fehr brushed off - Bettman wanted this done early a lot more than Fehr - even in July, Fehr was planning to let this drag on

and really, Don... "But if there’s some demarcation point, (a date) that it has to be done by, nobody has told us yet." how about before... the start of the season? really, Don? That's some serious just-want-to-play negotiating right there.

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12-24-2012, 02:46 AM
  #757
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I don't care that he is a hero in Canada, **** you Gary Bettman!

It's Christmas and still no NHL. He is in charge.

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12-24-2012, 02:55 AM
  #758
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
I don't care that he is a hero in Canada, **** you Gary Bettman!

It's Christmas and still no NHL. He is in charge.
Since when is Bettman a hero in Canada?

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Old
12-24-2012, 03:01 AM
  #759
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Originally Posted by Thrill22 View Post
how did you get he was willing to sign off on a no strike policy out of that? Sounded more like a veiled threat than anything. What I find more curious is that Bettman made a reference to a short period of time, which Fehr brushed off - Bettman wanted this done early a lot more than Fehr - even in July, Fehr was planning to let this drag on
It says it right in the article.

Reads more to me like Bettman's making the threat.
Quote:

and really, Don... "But if there’s some demarcation point, (a date) that it has to be done by, nobody has told us yet." how about before... the start of the season? really, Don? That's some serious just-want-to-play negotiating right there.
The PA doesn't get 300 mil in make-whole if they start the season on time.

It's automatically true that some sort of deal will be completed before the start of the season.

The NHL's offer would not be this favourable to the players had they started the season on time.

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12-24-2012, 03:11 AM
  #760
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
Since when is Bettman a hero in Canada?
Always thought he was hated there most, I guess because the Jets came back?

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Old
12-24-2012, 04:22 AM
  #761
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Always thought he was hated there most, I guess because the Jets came back?
That's how I feel and it's the perception I get from others.

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12-24-2012, 07:45 AM
  #762
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
The PA doesn't get 300 mil in make-whole if they start the season on time.

It's automatically true that some sort of deal will be completed before the start of the season.

The NHL's offer would not be this favourable to the players had they started the season on time.
The players are no further ahead with the make-whole money when one considers the salary lost during the same period. They are actually further behind when lost salary is included into the equation. They will never make that money back; the players should have come to a deal much earlier.

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12-24-2012, 08:43 AM
  #763
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
The players are no further ahead with the make-whole money when one considers the salary lost during the same period. They are actually further behind when lost salary is included into the equation. They will never make that money back; the players should have come to a deal much earlier.
I'm sure alot of the players are asking what was so bad about the oct offer of an 82 game schedule now....

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12-24-2012, 08:58 AM
  #764
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
The players are no further ahead with the make-whole money when one considers the salary lost during the same period. They are actually further behind when lost salary is included into the equation. They will never make that money back; the players should have come to a deal much earlier.
and what be thankful for the crumbs the "masters" let them have??

give me a break.

If the players took the NHL's original low ball offer they would be fools and would only be more screwed down the line... cause we all know the same song and dance would just occur.... "Billionaires need more money... we can't manage our teams... we need players to pay for it.. yadda yadda yadda"

Owners/NHL had no intention on starting season on time, hence their insulting offer to start the negotation...

Fehr is going to come in at the 11th hour and something will be done by Jan 4th/5th to save the season... neither owners or players will feel like "they won" but there will be hockey.

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Old
12-24-2012, 09:37 AM
  #765
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Originally Posted by theMajor View Post
soooo what, the owners/Bettman could have given their 43% offer a year earlier?

the stalling/leveraging has been evident on both sides of the table from the onset of negotiations so dont try and play it like the players and Fehr are the only ones dragging their feet
People need to stop pointing fingers on this. It's quite evident that if a deal is going to get done this time around, it's going to get done in the final hour. If they started these discussions earlier, it would not have changed a thing. The threat of a cancelled season will not be taken seriously until it's clearly on the horizon, the same could be said regarding a disclaimer of interest. It's getting close to the final hour now, lets just hope they get something done.

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Old
12-24-2012, 10:06 AM
  #766
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This whole thing makes no sense...

Why is Fehr doing everything he can to inflict the maximum amount of pain to the NHL? He's going to get a very short term win (or lesser losses) on certain items but the damage done to the NHL means revenues won't grow as fast as they could have (they might even drop) and a bigger TV deal will be harder to get which means revenue sharing won't be able to increase as fast as it could have; all this is very bad for the players in the long run

So to prove a point and stick it to the man Fehr is telling his membership to forgo a ton of money right now and forgo a large potential in terms of future earnings... The only way this makes any sense is if he goes after the cap, I can't think of another scenario that does not end up with the players getting screwed.


Last edited by Do Make Say Think: 12-24-2012 at 10:41 AM. Reason: A bit more PC for the BoH board
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Old
12-24-2012, 10:10 AM
  #767
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Originally Posted by Uncle Howie View Post
and what be thankful for the crumbs the "masters" let them have??

give me a break.

If the players took the NHL's original low ball offer they would be fools and would only be more screwed down the line... cause we all know the same song and dance would just occur.... "Billionaires need more money... we can't manage our teams... we need players to pay for it.. yadda yadda yadda"
Not once did I suggest that the players should have taken the owners initial offer so am unsure of your point; I will suggest however that they likely would have been better served to have begun negotiations shortly after the NHL initially invited them to the table - back in the spring.

Quote:
Owners/NHL had no intention on starting season on time, hence their insulting offer to start the negotation...

Fehr is going to come in at the 11th hour and something will be done by Jan 4th/5th to save the season... neither owners or players will feel like "they won" but there will be hockey.
Yet it was the players that waited until the cusp of when training camps began prior to entering into negotiations, so it was the players that were more willing to risk a late start to the season - counter to your claim.

I'm curious as to whether or not you've ever entered into any serious financial negotiations on your own? The reason I ask is because the owners initial offer was obviously framed to bring the final discussion toward a 50/50 split, and those terming that offer an insult seem more interested in scoring a rhetorical point versus a valid one; in fact, the offer clearly accomplished the intended goal as 50/50 is where they will eventually wind up. It seems that what you termed an insult was in fact the correct starting point.

At the end of the day the players will have lost because they've lost hundreds of millions in salary; this represents lost opportunity that the average player will never recoup over his career. If the season begins in Jan then the owners will conversely have won because they've a system that offers further cost certainty and have the benefit of time to repair any damage done to their brand. The players conversely just threw away money in a failed attempt to prove their mettle.

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Old
12-24-2012, 10:52 AM
  #768
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
Fehr was going to stall until the last second anyway. Hell, he might be more interested in using this season to set up for his finale through next year.
MOD
Fehr's not stupid.
He knew the NHL wasn't going to get serious until a certain date.
So he let them know that he was willing to outwait them. Negotiating with anyone still in "die on a hill" mode is kind of pointless.

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12-24-2012, 11:01 AM
  #769
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The entire reasoning for everything in the owners' demands is that these billionaire owners are too stupid and undisciplined to act in their own best interest.

Billionaires spend too much money? Why? They can't control themselves. So they need a salary cap.
Got a salary cao.
Billionaires spend too much money because the HRR they agreed to is too high -- even though it's way lower than it used to be.'
Billionaires give out contracts are too long, They demand major reduction in contract length.
Billionaires offer cap circumvention contracts. Billionaires demand end to cap circumvention deals.

Owners can't function with intelligence and discipline -- so they lockout the players and threaten to cancel the second season in 7 years.

And fans at HFboards support them... and think that, somehow, the owners are suddenly acting intelligently....

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Old
12-24-2012, 11:03 AM
  #770
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Fehr's not stupid.
He knew the NHL wasn't going to get serious until a certain date.
So he let them know that he was willing to outwait them. Negotiating with anyone still in "die on a hill" mode is kind of pointless.
Fehr is willing. Many players, who are a lot closer to the AHL than the All-Star Game, don't have that long to wait.

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12-24-2012, 11:06 AM
  #771
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
I don't care that he is a hero in Canada, **** you Gary Bettman!

It's Christmas and still no NHL. He is in charge.
He might have been a hero in Winnipeg at one time last year for all of 30 seconds. However, it didn't take long to see how chagrined he was in being forced to relocate Atlanta to the flats. He really didn't have much choice in the matter; the Atlanta owners were in position to drop the keys on his desk and he simply had no buyer. As for the present and the rest of Canada, if he's considered a hero, I'd hate to see a what a bum looks like.

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12-24-2012, 11:09 AM
  #772
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Originally Posted by moosehead81 View Post
He might have been a hero in Winnipeg at one time last year for all of 30 seconds. However, it didn't take long to see how chagrined he was in being forced to relocate Atlanta to the flats. He really didn't have much choice in the matter; the Atlanta owners were in position to drop the keys on his desk and he simply had no buyer. As for the present and the rest of Canada, if he's considered a hero, I'd hate to see a what a bum looks like.
Far be it from me to steer the topic in this direction, but there were plenty of buyers in Atlanta who were interested. They were looking at the completely unpalatable situation of either having to have ASG as a landlord or at having to buy the Hawks and Philips Arena operating rights as a package at a massively inflated price (mainly to settle ASG's internal lawsuits).

Unfortunately, the NHL was not in a position to seize the Thrashers or to force ASG to negotiate a sale in good faith.

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12-24-2012, 11:12 AM
  #773
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They chose the lockout to avoid the inevitable strike (which is what happened the last time Fehr was in charge of a PA operating under an expired CBA, and the last time NHL games were played under an expired CBA). So really that's just clinging to semantics to try and look "better" during this mess. Games were going to be cancelled short of agreeing to a new CBA prior to the season. Much rather to lose some on the front end than the back. Even if it means losing the whole season. Rather that than to start one that never finishes.
So what exactly was the PA going to strike for?

You pretend to know that they would have gone on strike, so surely you must know why and what they would have demanded.

This isn't semantics. This is reality.

The owners -- they voted for the lockout. The owners -- they voted to cancel games.

Now, if you;re pro-owner, you can believe that their decision is necessary. But you can't dispute who is making the decision.

This is like the Republican legislators I talk to who cut spending on education for tax breaks for business ,.. and then get angry with you say "Republicans cut spending on education so they could give tax cuts to business."

They apparently believe in the righteousness of their decision. But not so much that they like it said out loud near election day.


In life, you make decisions and you stand next to them. If you can't, then you shouldn't make them.

Had Don Fehr led the players on a strike (and logically, given that the players seem to be comfy in the existing CBA, I don't think a strike was a good bet), then you call could say this was Fehr's strike or the PA's strike.

But you can't. Because it's the owners' lockout.

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12-24-2012, 11:13 AM
  #774
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
It says it right in the article.
Sorry, but "Fehr did not rule out a no-strike, no-lockout agreement" in no way means he was willing to sign one or agreed to sign one. It's a deflection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theMajor View Post
the stalling/leveraging has been evident on both sides of the table from the onset of negotiations so dont try and play it like the players and Fehr are the only ones dragging their feet
Could you give us some examples of how the league has been stalling from the onset of negotiations?

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12-24-2012, 11:14 AM
  #775
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
lol, The author of the article that said "Fehr did not rule out a no-strike, no-lockout agreement."

Fehr never mentioned a no-strike, no-lockout agreement, so of course he didn't rule one out.

I can say, "Bettman did not rule out a no-strike, no-lockout agreement" and it will be just as factual as the above statement.

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