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Lockout V: Take the Long Way Home

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Old
12-24-2012, 10:15 AM
  #776
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
The entire reasoning for everything in the owners' demands is that these billionaire owners are too stupid and undisciplined to act in their own best interest.

Billionaires spend too much money? Why? They can't control themselves. So they need a salary cap.
Got a salary cao.
Billionaires spend too much money because the HRR they agreed to is too high -- even though it's way lower than it used to be.'
Billionaires give out contracts are too long, They demand major reduction in contract length.
Billionaires offer cap circumvention contracts. Billionaires demand end to cap circumvention deals.

Owners can't function with intelligence and discipline -- so they lockout the players and threaten to cancel the second season in 7 years.

And fans at HFboards support them... and think that, somehow, the owners are suddenly acting intelligently....
Is it somehow your position that since they are billionaires then they shouldn't be allowed to set the rules under which their business can operate? Just because they can afford to spend money doesn't make it a prudent business decision, FYI.

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12-24-2012, 10:16 AM
  #777
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Fehr is willing. Many players, who are a lot closer to the AHL than the All-Star Game, don't have that long to wait.
This is how unions work.
If you don't like it, go play in the AHL for the rest of your life.

There's a reason why NHL players have so much. They can thank the PA for that.

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12-24-2012, 10:16 AM
  #778
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Originally Posted by JAX View Post
I'm sure alot of the players are asking what was so bad about the oct offer of an 82 game schedule now....
No way man. They got the league to bump up make whole by 89M!!!! It cost them over 700M in salary, but that's still a win any way you slice it!!!

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12-24-2012, 10:24 AM
  #779
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
Is it somehow your position that since they are billionaires then they shouldn't be allowed to set the rules under which their business can operate? Just because they can afford to spend money doesn't make it a prudent business decision, FYI.

You constantly talk about "setting the rules." No. 30 separate owners aren't allowed to "set the rules" for wages across the industry -- not unless the PA agrees tot hem.



Before we had a salary cap/floor, an owner who did not want to spend $50M on payroll. Now he's required to do so.

Owners, for the most part, can decide how much they want to offer a player and whether or not they can afford a player.. They can decide if they want to offer 1 year, 5 years or 10 years.

I don't understand why you're concerned about the "rules" They

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12-24-2012, 10:24 AM
  #780
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It's a question of principles.

The current CBA propasal should of been accepted by the players.

5 yrs limit on contract (max 7 yrs if a player stays with the team he signed with).

That's where the disagreement stands and there is no apparent reason why the players shouldn't agree. They also want the proposed CBA to be limited to 5 years instead of 10 years.

Why?

It's a question of principles and players have always had big egos when talking $.

The players don't want the season to be cancelled and they will sign a deal before the season is cancelled, but they don't want it to look easy. Right now they are pinned to the board and they're trying to keep possession of the puck while the NHL is trying to scoop it from their skates and they won't let go, but the best they can do now is get a penalty for delaying the game.

The reason is simple, the NHL is posting a 3.7G$ annual revenue and unlike the last lock-out the NHL is not on life support. The players see no reason to give up on some of their future bank accounts. There are in fact seeing the situation as the owners attempting a robbery to boost their profits, thus the reason they want to fight back.

The losers are of course the fans and they shouldn't take any sides in this debate because no one cares for them.

The owners could at any time come up with a slightly better deal that would not affect their lives by any means, the players would see it as a victory and they would sign. The players could also sign at any time on the last proposal and their lives would not change in at all. Because eventually the owners will pay more $ to get their winning teams and they will compensate by augmenting ticket and merchandise prices.

Hockey in NA will suffer from this and if the KHL keeps growing in central Europe, future european prospects won't be so tempted in immigrating to the west and might feel that they're be better off staying at home in the same time zone as their parent's house.

But globally it is now quite surreal to think that hockey might one day become the number 3 sport in NA all the ground it had gained in the last years is now effaced and the league is underestimating that effect. They will be in for a shock, especially in Canada, as flocks of fans will now either quit the sport and give it much less attention.


Last edited by Alexdaman: 12-24-2012 at 10:34 AM.
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12-24-2012, 10:26 AM
  #781
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Originally Posted by DuklaNation View Post
Two more letters.

BS

The issue re:Fehr not negotiating until the lockout began is a total red herring and is irrelevant to the current status anyways.
Only because you choose to make it irrelevant. Who knows where we could be if they started negotiating in good faith. This was Fehr's last stand. If they began negotiating last January and were still in this position, I'd be more likely to agree with you.

Maybe fans would have been more sympathetic to players whining to play while negotiating if they actually tried to do that starting last January.

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12-24-2012, 10:27 AM
  #782
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
This is how unions work.
If you don't like it, go play in the AHL for the rest of your life.

There's a reason why NHL players have so much. They can thank the PA for that.
Sure, and when someone like Derek MacKenzie is getting bent over because the PA is more interested in protecting the extremely small percentage at the top, is that ethical?

Quick rundown on MacKenzie, who I regard as "the typical NHLer".
- Drafted in 1999 by Atlanta
- Played two more years in the OHL
- Played primarily in the AHL over then ensuing years
- Signed as a Group VI free agent by Columbus (at age 26) to a one-year, two-way deal
- Signed the next year to a two-year, two-way deal
- Signed after that to a two-year, two-way deal

This past summer, he was signed for the first time in his life to a one-way deal (also for two years). He's 31, currently locked out, and can't play anywhere else. He's sitting at home, and will lose 50% of his salary over the span of this contract because the PA has made a much lesser pay cut (and deferment) their "hill to die on".

There are probably 200 or so NHL players like Derek MacKenzie, and another 200-300 who aren't too far off. These are the guys to whom "max contracts" do not and will never apply to, and to whom several issues the NHLPA has branded as "vital" will never apply to. But they're not interested in that; the handful of players who could receive max-length contracts take priority over the massive numbers who couldn't. That's not what a union is supposed to be. A union is supposed to involve protecting the little guy from being trampled, not be a party to trampling in order to placate their own most highly-paid guys.

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12-24-2012, 10:31 AM
  #783
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Sure, and when someone like Derek MacKenzie is getting bent over because the PA is more interested in protecting the extremely small percentage at the top, is that ethical?

Quick rundown on MacKenzie, who I regard as "the typical NHLer".
- Drafted in 1999 by Atlanta
- Played two more years in the OHL
- Played primarily in the AHL over then ensuing years
- Signed as a Group VI free agent by Columbus (at age 26) to a one-year, two-way deal
- Signed the next year to a two-year, two-way deal
- Signed after that to a two-year, two-way deal

This past summer, he was signed for the first time in his life to a one-way deal (also for two years). He's 31, currently locked out, and can't play anywhere else. He's sitting at home, and will lose 50% of his salary over the span of this contract because the PA has made a much lesser pay cut (and deferment) their "hill to die on".

There are probably 200 or so NHL players like Derek MacKenzie, and another 200-300 who aren't too far off. These are the guys to whom "max contracts" do not and will never apply to, and to whom several issues the NHLPA has branded as "vital" will never apply to. But they're not interested in that; the handful of players who could receive max-length contracts take priority over the massive numbers who couldn't. That's not what a union is supposed to be. A union is supposed to involve protecting the little guy from being trampled, not be a party to trampling in order to placate their own most highly-paid guys.
This is why I don't understand how the NHLPA has stayed united so far. It doesn't make sense. The only thing I can think of is that Fehr and the few players in the inner circle have really brainwashed the rank and file into believing that the NHL is going to crack at the last minute and offer a great deal including big make whole provisions which includes full pay for this half-season.

Man, there are going to be some really, really angry players out there once Jan. 10 or so comes and the season is cancelled. At that point, say hello to the NHLPA's Night of the Long Knives.

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12-24-2012, 10:34 AM
  #784
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
You constantly talk about "setting the rules." No. 30 separate owners aren't allowed to "set the rules" for wages across the industry -- not unless the PA agrees tot hem.

Before we had a salary cap/floor, an owner who did not want to spend $50M on payroll. Now he's required to do so.

Owners, for the most part, can decide how much they want to offer a player and whether or not they can afford a player.. They can decide if they want to offer 1 year, 5 years or 10 years.

I don't understand why you're concerned about the "rules" They
I'm speaking of owners on the whole, FYI, and the terms under which their business will operate includes things like player salaries. Owners on the whole in fact do set the terms under which their businesses operate, as player compensation is tied to a percentage of league HRR. The players won't have jobs unless the owners define the terms of their employment, for example. That is why I speak to the terms under which the owners run their businesses, because the owners set them and no one else. The players are truly just cattle in the grand scheme.

You speak as if the players have a say; they really don't have much of a say at the end of the day. They are essentially replaceable employees and nothing else. They've zero equity position in the business... Mod...


Last edited by Killion: 12-24-2012 at 11:29 AM. Reason: not reqd...
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12-24-2012, 10:37 AM
  #785
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Sure, and when someone like Derek MacKenzie is getting bent over because the PA is more interested in protecting the extremely small percentage at the top, is that ethical?

Quick rundown on MacKenzie, who I regard as "the typical NHLer".
- Drafted in 1999 by Atlanta
- Played two more years in the OHL
- Played primarily in the AHL over then ensuing years
- Signed as a Group VI free agent by Columbus (at age 26) to a one-year, two-way deal
- Signed the next year to a two-year, two-way deal
- Signed after that to a two-year, two-way deal

This past summer, he was signed for the first time in his life to a one-way deal (also for two years). He's 31, currently locked out, and can't play anywhere else. He's sitting at home, and will lose 50% of his salary over the span of this contract because the PA has made a much lesser pay cut (and deferment) their "hill to die on".

There are probably 200 or so NHL players like Derek MacKenzie, and another 200-300 who aren't too far off. These are the guys to whom "max contracts" do not and will never apply to, and to whom several issues the NHLPA has branded as "vital" will never apply to. But they're not interested in that; the handful of players who could receive max-length contracts take priority over the massive numbers who couldn't. That's not what a union is supposed to be. A union is supposed to involve protecting the little guy from being trampled, not be a party to trampling in order to placate their own most highly-paid guys.
Derek McKenzie has made good money in the NHL.

If he doesn't like how the union operates to help make sure players like him continue to get good money -- too ****ing bad.

He made $1.2M over the last two years. And when he gets back to work, he's got a $1M salary waiting for him.

You think he'd have that without a PA?

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12-24-2012, 10:42 AM
  #786
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Originally Posted by DeathToAllButMetal View Post
This is why I don't understand how the NHLPA has stayed united so far. It doesn't make sense. The only thing I can think of is that Fehr and the few players in the inner circle have really brainwashed the rank and file into believing that the NHL is going to crack at the last minute and offer a great deal including big make whole provisions which includes full pay for this half-season.

Man, there are going to be some really, really angry players out there once Jan. 10 or so comes and the season is cancelled. At that point, say hello to the NHLPA's Night of the Long Knives.
From the sound of it, based on what I read from a certain player (I believe it was David Backes, can't find the quote ATM) the PA has pushed the notion that putting a 5 year limit on contracts will harm lesser player's abilities to negotiate a deal by restricting their options in terms of asking for too much to get less via concessions (where have I seen such a tactic being used... Something about 43% leading to 50%?).
While this is not false, I believe Fehr has managed to overstate the case (he is a lawyer after all ) and the players buy into the notion far too much. The fact of the matter is that the GM looking to sign lesser players will have guidlines to respect in getting a player signed, restricting the amount of years that player can ask for will not have a drastic effect on the player's earning potential because signing SPCs is not so much give and take but more of what is affordable and reasonnable

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12-24-2012, 10:42 AM
  #787
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
The entire reasoning for everything in the owners' demands is that these billionaire owners are too stupid and undisciplined to act in their own best interest.

Billionaires spend too much money? Why? They can't control themselves. So they need a salary cap.
Got a salary cao.
Billionaires spend too much money because the HRR they agreed to is too high -- even though it's way lower than it used to be.'
Billionaires give out contracts are too long, They demand major reduction in contract length.
Billionaires offer cap circumvention contracts. Billionaires demand end to cap circumvention deals.

Owners can't function with intelligence and discipline -- so they lockout the players and threaten to cancel the second season in 7 years.

And fans at HFboards support them... and think that, somehow, the owners are suddenly acting intelligently....
Billionaires are far from stupid. Pretty tough to make billions with a low level of intelligence. They were acting in their best interests before, which is why we got to the this point. And they are acting in their best interests now, to make the changes they see necessary to permanently cover their mistakes (yes THEY made the mistakes) in the last CBA.

"why should the players pay for their mistakes" you ask? Well, quite simply, who else is going to pay? Some of these businesses are not doing well financially. What do most businesses do when financial times are hard? They make cuts. These organizations employ thousands of people (directly and indirectly). Should they sit there and watch as the organization (/league) falls deeper into the hole while the players that they employ make more and more? Or should they fire/cut the salaries of other employed non-player staff instead? And at the same time, a select number of teams continue to drive up the price so high (because they can) that they have to "pay through the nose" - i.e. your version of acting stupid/undisciplined - in order to keep their star players.

The system was not broken. It needed some tweaking to make it fair from the owners perspective and financially stable from a league perspective (that is 30 teams able to break even while on a level playing field in terms of player salary financials).

If owners could 'control themselves' as you say, the players would be making far far less money and there would be some acts of collusion between them to artificially keep salaries down. Is that what you're advocating for?

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12-24-2012, 10:46 AM
  #788
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The players do have a say. Obviously.

Or we wouldn't be here. What part of that confuses you?
Well, no they don't. They do have a choice of whether or not to accept what is offered, but they are not the ones who define what is to be offered however. That is solely done by the owners, you know, the ones with a 100% equity position in the business versus the players' converse 0% stake.

Mod...


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12-24-2012, 10:50 AM
  #789
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Derek McKenzie has made good money in the NHL.

If he doesn't like how the union operates to help make sure players like him continue to get good money -- too ****ing bad.

He made $1.2M over the last two years. And when he gets back to work, he's got a $1M salary waiting for him.

You think he'd have that without a PA?
Ah yes, the old "what was good in the past is inherently good now" train of thought. It's not like I can make a short drive to Eastern Ohio, and see all of the closed-up steel mills, foundries, and manufacturing plants to see the natural end result of unions who can chalk "bankrupting the industry" up right next to the rest of their legacy. "We got the 40-hour workweek, and overtime pay, and also the ability to devastate an entire region economically for 35 years and into the indefinite future!"

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12-24-2012, 10:52 AM
  #790
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The owners want a 10 year CBA and I firmly believe they are seeking such a term in relation to the NBC TV deal they have: a ten year CBA takes them to after it has been renewed or taken it's business elsewhere; I honestly feel that the 10 year CBA is a huge issue for the owners.

The PA has also asked for ways to get around the 50/50 split by askingfor special exemptions (escrow cap and special buyout provisions due to a lowered cap) which are dead on arrival as far as the owners are concerned.

Contract limits are issues linked to insurance, numbers have been floated around, some reputable posters on this board have come up with the NHL unable to get insurance coverage for more than 5 years but Friedman @ CBC has said it is seven years. On this issue the owners might not have much leeway, insurance on huge contracts can kill franchise values.

So I would not say it's only on princple that there is no CBA: Fehr is in charge of the dance and the owners are now sick and tired of the way he runs the show. Principle is definitely on what the PA is relying to motivate it's members, but the numbers are not there for the NHL to make a deal.

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12-24-2012, 10:54 AM
  #791
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Well, no they don't. They do have a choice of whether or not to accept what is offered, but they are not the ones who define what is to be offered however. That is solely done by the owners, you know, the ones with a 100% equity position in the business versus the players' converse 0% stake.

Perhaps this line of thought is beyond your scope?
Then why does the NHL ask for the PA to make offers?

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12-24-2012, 11:00 AM
  #792
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Then why does the NHL ask for the PA to make offers?
Because they are trying to determine if the requested level of future employee/contractor compensation is within the limits of what they are willing to pay. Mod...

Employees work for a salary that is granted them by an employer. Employees have an option to take a salary offer or to look elsewhere for employment; owners conversely set the terms under which they operate their businesses, including how much they choose to pay for their cattle.


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12-24-2012, 11:04 AM
  #793
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Ah yes, the old "what was good in the past is inherently good now" train of thought. It's not like I can make a short drive to Eastern Ohio, and see all of the closed-up steel mills, foundries, and manufacturing plants to see the natural end result of unions who can chalk "bankrupting the industry" up right next to the rest of their legacy. "We got the 40-hour workweek, and overtime pay, and also the ability to devastate an entire region economically for 35 years and into the indefinite future!"
Mod...

If you want to have a politics debate, by all means. Send me the thread on the politics board and I'll see you there.

The NHL isn't a manufacturing facility competing against foreign leagues that pay pennies on the dollar and exporting their products.

The NHL is a league that made money last year and is asking their employees to take a paycut.


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12-24-2012, 11:05 AM
  #794
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Because they are trying to determine if the requested level of future employee/contractor compensation is within the limits of what they are willing to pay.
And the players are trying to determine if the compensation offered is within the limits of what they will play for.

Mod...


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12-24-2012, 11:09 AM
  #795
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And the players are trying to determine if the compensation offered is within the limits of what they will play for.

Mod...
Not really; the players are free to ask for whatever they want... but they are not at all the ones that define what it is that they will receive in the end; that is done solely by the owners.

Owners - 100% equity position in the business
Players - 0% equity position in the business

The owners set the terms. The players are the grunts.


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12-24-2012, 11:10 AM
  #796
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Not really; the employees can ask for whatever they want but they are not the ones that define what it is that they will receive in the end; that is done solely by the owners.
The owners can offer whatever they want but they need someone that will work for what they're willing to pay; that's done solely by the employee.

Mod...


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12-24-2012, 11:17 AM
  #797
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Common folks should know their role and shut their mouth! Sweat shops FTW!
Nice summation of absolutely nothing.

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Knock it off.

If you want to have a politics debate, by all means. Send me the thread on the politics board and I'll see you there.

The NHL isn't a manufacturing facility competing against foreign leagues that pay pennies on the dollar and exporting their products.

The NHL is a league that made money last year and is asking their employees to take a paycut.
No, it's a professional sports league that competes against other professional sports leagues and thus is in direct competition in more markets than not. And in cities that have minor league or college or junior hockey nearby, they're in competition there as well.

The NHL collectively being profitable is irrelevant, since every pro North American league has a vested interest in stability and in competitive balance. You're basically making the argument that if the collective breaks even, then the hell with how it actually arrived at that point. It's the same lack of logic that says that MLB is healthy despite the reduction of at least 10 franchises into permanent serfdom for the larger markets. The economic disparity has had a disrupting effect on the actual on-field product, which has spilled over into fan interest and the collective health of the league/

But as long as the Red Sox and Yankees and Dodgers are able to spend the rest of the league into oblivion, the hell with Kansas City and Cleveland and Pittsburgh and Houston, right?

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12-24-2012, 11:19 AM
  #798
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The owners can offer whatever they want but they need someone that will work for what they're willing to pay; that's done solely by the employee.
Not really; the owners can find other players and stage competitive games. The players conversely can't find 30 other NHL-quality teams to employ them. The players can't find similar compensation elsewhere. The teams in Europe largely have difficulty just paying the insurance premiums to cover the salaries that "name" NHL players receive, let alone offer a competitive employment package.

NHL Owners - own the business and set the terms
NHL Players - employee/contractors that must eventually take what is offered or seek employment elsewhere - essentially grunts and nothing else


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12-24-2012, 11:20 AM
  #799
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NHL Owners - own the business and set the terms
Then what are we waiting for? Hurry up and set the terms already.

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12-24-2012, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Then what are we waiting for? Hurry up and set the terms already.
They already largely have save a few minor issues, at least according to the press. It appears as if the players however seem to want to wait until the last minute in an effort to salvage some pride, as if that will make all the money they've blindly thrown away somehow worth the cost.


Gump Hasek is offline  
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