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12'/13' Draft Thread: Offensive flash is a beauty but defensive presence rules.

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Old
12-24-2012, 11:23 AM
  #151
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By the way nice dodge Ernie, Monahan's hockey sense may be better than Barkov's. Or atleast in understanding all situations on the ice as Spott alluded to was a Monahan strength.

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12-24-2012, 11:24 AM
  #152
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It's not the NHL, right. Different league, how many Finns that played well there have been stars in the NHL. Here is a list spanning the last 10 years of the best player voted in SM Liiga:

2002 Janne Ojanen, Tappara
2003 Antti Miettinen, HPK
2004 Timo Pärssinen, HIFK
2005 Tim Thomas, Jokerit
2006 Tony Salmelainen, HIFK
2007 Cory Murphy, HIFK
2008 Ville Leino, Jokerit
2009 Juuso Riksman, Jokerit
2010 Jori Lehterä, Tappara
2011 Ville Peltonen, HIFK
2012 Tomáš Záborský, Ässät

Can Barkov play goal, temper your ethusiasm Ernie, he may be an intriguing prospect, and he does have 28 pts in 32 games in a mens league, important to look at those names above.
How many of these players were 17?

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12-24-2012, 11:28 AM
  #153
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How many of these players were 17?
This is obviously why Barkov is getting so much praise, and I am not discounting this angle.

But don't let that playing against older distort it is still in a league that is far inferior to the NHL, and even the AHL. Or even perhaps players that do not produce as many NHL'ers than say the OHL or WHL.

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12-24-2012, 11:32 AM
  #154
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Monahan is a better playmaker, but that standard you gave was not hard to beat, plus he has done something the other hasn't done in his career, he captained a championship team in 1 of the 3 championships teams he has been apart of in 3 years.

You are the company you keep, I like to surround myself with winners, others like to surround themselves with losers, to each is own. I know which catagory you chose. But good post, that was amusing.
I don't really understand what you are arguing against? I just complemented both Grabovski and Monahan.

And for the record, using championships to judge a player is completely irrational.

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NOBODY in their right mind is putting Monahan even equal, let alone above Barkov.
Oh wait, in the other thread you claimed that I defined BPA as subjective, when instead I declared it as something universal, which was apparently wrong since general managers make the selections on their own accord. But now you are stating something objective, namely, NOBODY is saying Monahan is greater than or equal to Barkov. Isn't that an objective BPA, though?

Weird how this has turned out

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12-24-2012, 11:40 AM
  #155
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I don't really understand what you are arguing against? I just complemented both Grabovski and Monahan.

And for the record, using championships to judge a player is completely irrational.
There are certain players that winning does follow them around where ever they play, Messier, Neidermayer, Roy, Toews, Mike Richards, Tom Brady, Favre, Manning, it's not irrational. The better players you have in a postion of importance on a team the better the team is.

We are not talking about bit players here, Grabo is not a bit player, Monahan was not a bit player on the 3 championships he won in 2 years(I said 3 earlier my bad)

That may be a fluke, to use Dave Semenko as an example, but asked 99, and he would tell you Semenko was a big part of that team.

Winning follows certain players around, conversely as does losing. It's not an anomoly as one would believe. To ignore this is irrational.

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12-24-2012, 12:02 PM
  #156
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and even the AHL.
Ehh, not really, no. Both Finnish and Swedish Elite leagues have higher level of playing than AHL and are better leagues.

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12-24-2012, 12:17 PM
  #157
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I don't really understand what you are arguing against? I just complemented both Grabovski and Monahan.

And for the record, using championships to judge a player is completely irrational.



Oh wait, in the other thread you claimed that I defined BPA as subjective, when instead I declared it as something universal, which was apparently wrong since general managers make the selections on their own accord. But now you are stating something objective, namely, NOBODY is saying Monahan is greater than or equal to Barkov. Isn't that an objective BPA, though?

Weird how this has turned out
It's not an objective BPA, it's a strong consensus of subjective BPA, from pretty much any scout that doesn't live in a cave.

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12-24-2012, 01:03 PM
  #158
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There is NHLers in this league because of lockout and they do not dominate. I would say that Barkov haven't looked out of the place. He was matched against Mikko Koivu in 1 game head to head. Barkov scored 2 goals in that game and was the best player on the ice and looked as good as Mikko Koivu defensively in that game and Mikko Koivu played well. I'm not saying that he is even close as Mikko Koivu right now but if you're able to shut down NHL first line center and score 2 goals being barely 17 it's quite impressive. Mikko Koivu had 1 point in 21 games in his draft year. When he was matched against Jussi Jokinen Barkov assisted his teams all goals in 3-1 win and shut down Jussi Jokinen.

It's very bad comparison to compare former FEL MVPs to 17 year old Barkov. Almost all dominated only offensively but wasn't anything in the defensive zone.

Barkov has highest hockeyIQ in FEL including every NHL player. There is no players in FEL who plays as good 3 zone game as Barkov including NHLers. He just controls the game in all areas.

Barkov isn't just offensive weapon. He is player who already is one of the best players in that league including NHLers in overall game. He exposes qualities which we very rarely see in 17 YO. That makes himself as elite prospect. Barkov is nearly NHL-ready despite being 17. By next october he should play in the NHL in role
Where he plays in all situations including PK, PP. He's that ready.

I like Seth Jones and Nathan MacKinnon but stating that Barkov isn't on their level because he plays in FEL isn't smart thing to do especially with lockout players. Barkov is clearly the best 17 year old skater i've seen from Finland.


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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
By the way nice dodge Ernie, Monahan's hockey sense may be better than Barkov's. Or atleast in understanding all situations on the ice as Spott alluded to was a Monahan strength.
That is lack of seeing Barkov. I've seen Monahan many times and he has very good hockeyIQ but Barkov has hockeyIQ that is from other world. I would compare Barkovs hockeyIQ to the professor(Igor Larionov) and that isn't even an stretch. I'm not doubting you're opinion if Monahan is better fit for leafs because i see some valid points that he could be better fit but your stating some statements which are not valid or complelitely wrong.


Last edited by thomast: 12-24-2012 at 01:14 PM.
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12-24-2012, 01:42 PM
  #159
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I like your style. Why respond to *what* he said when you can attack him on *how* he said it, amirite?
Classic deflection technique. And then he follows it up with "I'm done here, I'm going to leave". We can see where he's coming from haha

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12-24-2012, 01:46 PM
  #160
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Bigger ice favors the fleet of foot.

Too bad the focus will be on the Canadian team and there won't be a lot of opportunity to see all the prospects in this tournament.
Exactly. Barkov's size will be a much bigger advantage in a smaller ice surface. He won't need to contain opponents who have more room to outskate him because the ice surface is smaller.

And as for more grit? Have you ever seen Finnish players? They are not often lacking grit. For sake of argument, I can't really see a big difference in grit in the SM-Liiga and OHL. At least not enough to call into question the jump to the next level. Even if it is, you could claim that Barkov has experience against fully grown men, while Monohan is only gritty against undeveloped teenagers.

Now I will say Monohan has more grit on Barkov, but that's about it.

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12-24-2012, 02:15 PM
  #161
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One can also argue Monahan has better elite hockey sense than Barkov too. He's the right player for the Leafs, he's gritty, he can play in both ends of the ice, he is a talentm he's a C. Maybe not Barkov highlight films talented, but to me he is much more the sure thing, and when you are drafting 1-5, you want the surefire BPA. The OHL is the best amateur league in producing NHL'ers. When you have 2 players as close as Barkov and Monahan, I'd go with tried and tested 99/100
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about regarding Barkov.

Suggesting Monohan has a better hockey sense? That's unlikely.

Monohan being a better player in all three zones? Again unlikely.

Barkov is probably the best all around player in the draft with his one and only weakness being skating (Which can very easily be improved and to be perfectly honest, isn't nearly as bad as some make it out to be. Deceptively good actually).

Corey Pronman - Barkov has high, high-end puck skills and hockey sense at the same levels of countryman Granlund.

Goran Stubb (Director of ISS scouting in Europe) - At this point in the season, Stubb said he believes Barkov holds a slight edge. "Both are great prospects and outstanding young players," Stubb told NHL.com. "Their style of play is a bit different. Lindholm is the better skater, but Barkov is more of a complete package

Finnish Coach Raimo Helminen on Barkov at the WJC's last year - “He doesn’t look all the time really good, because he looks slow, but he’s pretty fast in his head and hands. He has good hands and good eyes,” Finnish head coach Raimo Helminen said.

Mikael Granlund (last year) - He’s playing amazing. He’s just 16 and he looks like he’s 25-years-old out on the ice,” Granlund said of Barkov’s play back home.

The Hockey News - Incredible blend of size, toughness, and skill, Barkov will shock many this season with his play and work ethic. He represented Team Finland in the World Junior Championships last year and contributed with 4 points in 7 games. His vision on the ice is among the tops of his class and his puck control is second to none.

Buzzing the Net - Many scouts will admit that Barkov's impressive campaign has made him a potential contender as the first-overall selection at the 2013 NHL entry draft. In Barkov, a team gets the full package of classic playmaking center. With his 6-foot-2, 205-pound frame Barkov hasn't looked out of placed at any point in his short tenure in the pro league. His hockey IQ looks unparalleled and his calm confidence and offensive tools create a lot of scoring chances in every game.

Dan Sallows of FC said of 16 year old Barkov - Along with his hockey pedigree, Barkov Jr. has unbelievable vision and exceptional hockey IQ, and is that special type of player that seems to know what will transpire on the ice ahead of time. He has Mario Lemiuex-like speed, in that he looks like a lumbering giant, but is deceptively fast, to go with tremendous hands, an accurate shot with a quick release, a high compete level, plays a solid two-way game, and consistently makes smart decisions with the puck. Barkov is mature beyond his years on the ice, and plays with the confidence and swagger of a savvy veteran. He is a hyprid of pure ability, skill, power and strength, and simply can create something out of nothing in an instant.

ISS Director of Scouting Dennis MacInnis - He is a big skilled Center with high Hockey IQ and very good puck presence. He is extremely instinctual and always seems to make plays that leave you wondering how he did it. As if the offensive wow factor wasn't enough, Barkov also showed off some good two-way desire and all-situations ability. When your top offensive playmaker is blocking shots on the penalty kill, you've got something special.”

Stu Siegel - Ultra-talented playmaker dominates on both sides of puck. Power Fwd w/good puck handling ability.

Craig Button - He resembles in style, Dale Hawerchuk. Like Dale I think Aleksander is that center who is equally adept at scoring as he is at playmaking. Aleksander has excellent sense, awareness and feel and he makes plays that very few players are capable of. He is not just playing in the SM Liga as a 17 -year old, he is one of the best players in the Finnish Elite League. He plays all areas of the game and is a number 1 center in mind who I feel should be in any discussion for 1st overall.

Craig Button - Alexander is mature beyond his years and one has to be when you play in the Finnish Elite League at the age of 16. That maturity is on full display when he is playing and he's a player who has a quiet confidence in his game. He has uncanny awareness and is a player who is capable of sizing up the play two and three steps ahead and can do things at a very high pace and tempo. He possesses great hands and with his size and use of his body, it is very difficult for opponents to negate his hands. A very good skater who can create time and space for himself in the offensive zone and he can make every kind of pass to create scoring opportunities. He is a dangerous offensive player who plays with determination and has a 'go about his business' approach. Has the potential to be a top No. 1 centre.

Craig Button when asked in Drouin could go number 1 - I think Jonathan is a terrific prospect. He definitely has the potential to be in a discussion but at this time I still see it being a 3 player race with Jones, MacKinnon and Barkov.

It continues to astound me that people keep trying to look for ways to put him lower. This kid is just too good. He's already better than Monohan is every way (and almost every scout, scouting service, media outlet is my proof for this), and still has a full year of less development than him. He has literally everything you want in a big center. He plays every side of the game very well, has high end puck skills, high end offensive skills, and high, high end hockey sense/IQ.

Barkov, like many scouts have already mentioned, is in the same league as Jones, MacKinnon and is in the race for number 1.

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12-24-2012, 02:18 PM
  #162
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Seems to me like people are hating on Barkov for little reason, or just trying to hype up the local Ontario kid.

Put me on the list of those that are on the Barkov bandwagon. I really like what I've seen and heard about him.

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12-24-2012, 02:20 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
There are certain players that winning does follow them around where ever they play, Messier, Neidermayer, Roy, Toews, Mike Richards, Tom Brady, Favre, Manning, it's not irrational. The better players you have in a postion of importance on a team the better the team is.

We are not talking about bit players here, Grabo is not a bit player, Monahan was not a bit player on the 3 championships he won in 2 years(I said 3 earlier my bad)

That may be a fluke, to use Dave Semenko as an example, but asked 99, and he would tell you Semenko was a big part of that team.

Winning follows certain players around, conversely as does losing. It's not an anomoly as one would believe. To ignore this is irrational.
Winning doesn't follow players around. The guys you listed went from good teams to other good teams. Saying that they won because of their "winning aura" (sounds like a passive ability on some RPG) is insulting to guys like Stevens, Giguere, Pronger, Mogilny, Selanne, Rafalski, Brodeur, Andy McDonald, etc. All very good players in their own right. You're evaluating the worth of the part by the accomplishments of the sum. Which just isn't a very good idea.

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12-24-2012, 02:24 PM
  #164
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It continues to astound me that people keep trying to look for ways to put him lower. This kid is just too good. He's already better than Monohan is every way (and almost every scout, scouting service, media outlet is my proof for this), and still has a full year of less development than him. He has literally everything you want in a big center. He plays every side of the game very well, has high end puck skills, high end offensive skills, and high, high end hockey sense/IQ.

Barkov, like many scouts have already mentioned, is in the same league as Jones, MacKinnon and is in the race for number 1.
Thanks for your input. Have you seen him play much? How would you compare him to fellow Country man, Joel Armia?

Thanks.

Edit: And those saying that right now, Monahan is better than Barkov in vision and other areas... he should! He's nearly a full year older...

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12-24-2012, 02:28 PM
  #165
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Seems to me like people are hating on Barkov for little reason, or just trying to hype up the local Ontario kid.

Put me on the list of those that are on the Barkov bandwagon. I really like what I've seen and heard about him.
Same. I'd put him neck and neck with MacKinnon. Hasn't been anything from him that I haven't liked so far.

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12-24-2012, 02:30 PM
  #166
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Thanks for your input. Have you seen him play much? How would you compare him to fellow Country man, Joel Armia?

Thanks.

Edit: And those saying that right now, Monahan is better than Barkov in vision and other areas... he should! He's nearly a full year older...
Monahan has grit and presence in all areas, but Barkov has skill greater than Monahan at a younger age. He's not similar to Armia IMO, playmaker manchild with his weakness in skating, aside from that he is very well in all areas. He's not a flashy guy and yes he is in the tier of Mackinnon and Jones.

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12-24-2012, 02:30 PM
  #167
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That is lack of seeing Barkov. I've seen Monahan many times and he has very good hockeyIQ but Barkov has hockeyIQ that is from other world. I would compare Barkovs hockeyIQ to the professor(Igor Larionov) and that isn't even an stretch. I'm not doubting you're opinion if Monahan is better fit for leafs because i see some valid points that he could be better fit but your stating some statements which are not valid or complelitely wrong.
Would it be fair to compare Barkov to Olli Jokinen, who was #3 overall in 97. Both were 17 when they played in SS Liiga. Jokinen had 41 points in 50 games his draft year. Very similar to Barkov's 28 points in 32 game pace he is on this year. Again I am not saying he is a bad prospect, but reading the comments on this forum in particular, and the swooning by some of the posters. While Jokinen is not a bad NHL'er, he is not I would dare say worth a Jones/Mackinnon or even Monahan if he was in this draft class.

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12-24-2012, 02:36 PM
  #168
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You don't think 700 pts in 1100 games is worthy of third overall? Jokinen was an amazing player and is still quite good for 34 yrs old.

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12-24-2012, 02:36 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by TheFinnishKulemin View Post
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about regarding Barkov.

Suggesting Monohan has a better hockey sense? That's unlikely.

Monohan being a better player in all three zones? Again unlikely.

Barkov is probably the best all around player in the draft with his one and only weakness being skating (Which can very easily be improved and to be perfectly honest, isn't nearly as bad as some make it out to be. Deceptively good actually).

Corey Pronman - Barkov has high, high-end puck skills and hockey sense at the same levels of countryman Granlund.

Goran Stubb (Director of ISS scouting in Europe) - At this point in the season, Stubb said he believes Barkov holds a slight edge. "Both are great prospects and outstanding young players," Stubb told NHL.com. "Their style of play is a bit different. Lindholm is the better skater, but Barkov is more of a complete package

Finnish Coach Raimo Helminen on Barkov at the WJC's last year - “He doesn’t look all the time really good, because he looks slow, but he’s pretty fast in his head and hands. He has good hands and good eyes,” Finnish head coach Raimo Helminen said.

Mikael Granlund (last year) - He’s playing amazing. He’s just 16 and he looks like he’s 25-years-old out on the ice,” Granlund said of Barkov’s play back home.

The Hockey News - Incredible blend of size, toughness, and skill, Barkov will shock many this season with his play and work ethic. He represented Team Finland in the World Junior Championships last year and contributed with 4 points in 7 games. His vision on the ice is among the tops of his class and his puck control is second to none.

Buzzing the Net - Many scouts will admit that Barkov's impressive campaign has made him a potential contender as the first-overall selection at the 2013 NHL entry draft. In Barkov, a team gets the full package of classic playmaking center. With his 6-foot-2, 205-pound frame Barkov hasn't looked out of placed at any point in his short tenure in the pro league. His hockey IQ looks unparalleled and his calm confidence and offensive tools create a lot of scoring chances in every game.

Dan Sallows of FC said of 16 year old Barkov - Along with his hockey pedigree, Barkov Jr. has unbelievable vision and exceptional hockey IQ, and is that special type of player that seems to know what will transpire on the ice ahead of time. He has Mario Lemiuex-like speed, in that he looks like a lumbering giant, but is deceptively fast, to go with tremendous hands, an accurate shot with a quick release, a high compete level, plays a solid two-way game, and consistently makes smart decisions with the puck. Barkov is mature beyond his years on the ice, and plays with the confidence and swagger of a savvy veteran. He is a hyprid of pure ability, skill, power and strength, and simply can create something out of nothing in an instant.

ISS Director of Scouting Dennis MacInnis - He is a big skilled Center with high Hockey IQ and very good puck presence. He is extremely instinctual and always seems to make plays that leave you wondering how he did it. As if the offensive wow factor wasn't enough, Barkov also showed off some good two-way desire and all-situations ability. When your top offensive playmaker is blocking shots on the penalty kill, you've got something special.”

Stu Siegel - Ultra-talented playmaker dominates on both sides of puck. Power Fwd w/good puck handling ability.

Craig Button - He resembles in style, Dale Hawerchuk. Like Dale I think Aleksander is that center who is equally adept at scoring as he is at playmaking. Aleksander has excellent sense, awareness and feel and he makes plays that very few players are capable of. He is not just playing in the SM Liga as a 17 -year old, he is one of the best players in the Finnish Elite League. He plays all areas of the game and is a number 1 center in mind who I feel should be in any discussion for 1st overall.

Craig Button - Alexander is mature beyond his years and one has to be when you play in the Finnish Elite League at the age of 16. That maturity is on full display when he is playing and he's a player who has a quiet confidence in his game. He has uncanny awareness and is a player who is capable of sizing up the play two and three steps ahead and can do things at a very high pace and tempo. He possesses great hands and with his size and use of his body, it is very difficult for opponents to negate his hands. A very good skater who can create time and space for himself in the offensive zone and he can make every kind of pass to create scoring opportunities. He is a dangerous offensive player who plays with determination and has a 'go about his business' approach. Has the potential to be a top No. 1 centre.

Craig Button when asked in Drouin could go number 1 - I think Jonathan is a terrific prospect. He definitely has the potential to be in a discussion but at this time I still see it being a 3 player race with Jones, MacKinnon and Barkov.

It continues to astound me that people keep trying to look for ways to put him lower. This kid is just too good. He's already better than Monohan is every way (and almost every scout, scouting service, media outlet is my proof for this), and still has a full year of less development than him. He has literally everything you want in a big center. He plays every side of the game very well, has high end puck skills, high end offensive skills, and high, high end hockey sense/IQ.

Barkov, like many scouts have already mentioned, is in the same league as Jones, MacKinnon and is in the race for number 1.
I made a great comparison of another Finn, just now. Is it not possible he could be turn out to be another Jolli okinen? I don't have to explain drafting/scouting is not an exact science. I think we can both agree evaluating players from SM Liiga is tougher than the CJHL.

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12-24-2012, 02:39 PM
  #170
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I made a great comparison of another Finn, just now. Is it not possible he could be turn out to be another Jolli okinen? I don't have to explain drafting/scouting is not an exact science. I think we can both agree evaluating players from SM Liiga is tougher than the CJHL.
I think if he turns out like jokinen with more smarts he could be a ppg over a thousand games

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12-24-2012, 02:39 PM
  #171
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You don't think 700 pts in 1100 games is worthy of third overall? Jokinen was an amazing player and is still quite good for 34 yrs old.
The way Barkov is being touted in this thread, do you think 683 points in 1042 games, while being an okay top 6 Center in the NHL is fits the amount of superlatives he is getting in this thread? If it is, then we have or others have wasted alot of breath in this thread.

Jokinen is a great example of a player in a similar situation. Obcourse I am the only one that saw this as a very logical comparable.

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12-24-2012, 02:42 PM
  #172
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Winning doesn't follow players around. The guys you listed went from good teams to other good teams. Saying that they won because of their "winning aura" (sounds like a passive ability on some RPG) is insulting to guys like Stevens, Giguere, Pronger, Mogilny, Selanne, Rafalski, Brodeur, Andy McDonald, etc. All very good players in their own right. You're evaluating the worth of the part by the accomplishments of the sum. Which just isn't a very good idea.
It's better than thinking that winning is a random act, based on luck of rosters and organizations you are a part of.

It was just luck that Neidermayer won everyrhing in hockey, the guy must be the luckiest hockey player in NHL history.

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12-24-2012, 02:42 PM
  #173
bobermay
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
Monahan has grit and presence in all areas, but Barkov has skill greater than Monahan at a younger age. He's not similar to Armia IMO, playmaker manchild with his weakness in skating, aside from that he is very well in all areas. He's not a flashy guy and yes he is in the tier of Mackinnon and Jones.
Thanks, I'm aware that Armia's and Barkov's game are different, but I was wondering who has more potential to be a better NHL player....

Barkov is projected to be drafted higher than Armia, but I'm just wondering if Barkov's potential is significantly higher than Armias or are they close?

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12-24-2012, 02:46 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Would it be fair to compare Barkov to Olli Jokinen, who was #3 overall in 97. Both were 17 when they played in SS Liiga. Jokinen had 41 points in 50 games his draft year. Very similar to Barkov's 28 points in 32 game pace he is on this year. Again I am not saying he is a bad prospect, but reading the comments on this forum in particular, and the swooning by some of the posters. While Jokinen is not a bad NHL'er, he is not I would dare say worth a Jones/Mackinnon or even Monahan if he was in this draft class.
I don't think you can compare the two.

-Two different eras of hockey
-The NHL has changed a lot since Jokinen was drafted
-Prospect development has changed over the years

I think there are some aspects where you cannot really use history to compare prospects, and this is a good example.

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12-24-2012, 02:52 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by bobermay View Post
I don't think you can compare the two.

-Two different eras of hockey
-The NHL has changed a lot since Jokinen was drafted
-Prospect development has changed over the years

I think there are some aspects where you cannot really use history to compare prospects, and this is a good example.
There are still a lot of players drafted in 97 that are impact players, infact some of the best players in the NHL last year. If they are good enough to be drafted then, and are still playing a relevant role, then your theory hockey is not an accurate one. Look at the 97 draft class and see how many great players are on this list, they are still NHL stars today. Maybe the league is actually oversaturated today infact, but that is another discussion.

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