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12'/13' Draft Thread: Offensive flash is a beauty but defensive presence rules.

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Old
12-24-2012, 03:54 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
It's better than thinking that winning is a random act, based on luck of rosters and organizations you are a part of.

It was just luck that Neidermayer won everyrhing in hockey, the guy must be the luckiest hockey player in NHL history.
No, it's good players being surrounded by other good players going to another team with more good players. The moment Jonathan Toews is traded to a last place team and immediately turns that team into a championship team with no other moves, I will concede that some players just win.

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12-24-2012, 03:59 PM
  #177
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Thanks, I'm aware that Armia's and Barkov's game are different, but I was wondering who has more potential to be a better NHL player....

Barkov is projected to be drafted higher than Armia, but I'm just wondering if Barkov's potential is significantly higher than Armias or are they close?
Barkov hand's down, much much better.

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12-24-2012, 04:01 PM
  #178
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The way Barkov is being touted in this thread, do you think 683 points in 1042 games, while being an okay top 6 Center in the NHL is fits the amount of superlatives he is getting in this thread? If it is, then we have or others have wasted alot of breath in this thread.

Jokinen is a great example of a player in a similar situation. Obcourse I am the only one that saw this as a very logical comparable.
I don't know at all what Barkovs character is like, but I never liked what little heart I saw in Jokinen. He seemed at times as good as Sundin, but never put it together mentally. Seemed flaky. Like a lesser Kovalev. Someone who never put all their tremendous skill to use for more then a week or two at a time. If Barkov could be as skilled as Jokinen, hopefully he has more heart and determination to be a great player then Jokinen did.

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12-24-2012, 04:04 PM
  #179
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No, it's good players being surrounded by other good players going to another team with more good players. The moment Jonathan Toews is traded to a last place team and immediately turns that team into a championship team with no other moves, I will concede that some players just win.
Let's be logical, Doug Gilmour one would argue is a winner was traded to a terrible Leafs team, they won immediately after he became a Leaf, Toews is not as good as Gimour but he is in the same class. Obviously you cannot win a championship by yourself, but these guys make their teammates better, there is no denying this. What you are trying to say is for Grabo he has been very unlucky to have been part of some bad teams, but what I believe you are missing, Grabo on the 92 Leafs would not have made a difference. Now I am not comparing Grabo to Gilmour, even Bunjay would concede they are not in the same class, but there are some players that do make differences in the W/L column, Gilmour is a perfect example, that Leafs team was worst than the Leafs team last year, and they were 1 game away from the finals in Gilmour's first full year as a Leaf. Neidermayer made a huge contribution in The Ducks cup win. In a way you are helping me illustrate just how much the Leafs need to improve at Center, since it is obvious #84 has not made a difference in the W/L column since he became a Leaf. Would you not agree? It's not all his fault but he is incapable of doing what better players can do, and yes if the Leafs had Toews instead of Grabo, you wanna bet this awful team is closer to making the playoffs last year, infact I would wager had they had Toews the Leafs would have made the playoffs.

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12-24-2012, 04:08 PM
  #180
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Let's be logical, Doug Gilmour one would argue is a winner was traded to a terrible Leafs team, they won immediately after he became a Leaf, Toews is not as good as Gimour but he is in the same class. Obviously you cannot win a championship by yourself, but these guys make their teammates better, there is no denying this. What you are trying to say is for Grabo he has been very unlucky to have been part of some bad teams, but what I believe you are missing, Grabo on the 92 Leafs would not have made a difference. Now I am not comparing Grabo to Gilmour, even Bunjay would concede they are not in the same class, but there are some players that do make differences in the W/L column, Gilmour is a perfect example, that Leafs team was worst than the Leafs team last year, and they were 1 game away from the finals in Gilmour's first full year as a Leaf. Neidermayer made a huge contribution in The Ducks cup win. In a way you are helping me illustrate just how much the Leafs need to improve at Center, since it is obvious #84 has not made a difference in the W/L column since he became a Leaf. Would you not agree? It's not all his fault but he is incapable of doing what better players can do, and yes if the Leafs had Toews instead of Grabo, you wanna bet this awful team is closer to making the playoffs last year if they don't make it at all.
When did I say anything about Grabovski, let alone Grabovski being better than Jonathan ****ing Toews? This was about Sean Monahan and Sasha Barkov dude. I'm starting to think you've got a complex

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12-24-2012, 04:10 PM
  #181
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When did I say anything about Grabovski, let alone Grabovski being better than Jonathan ****ing Toews? This was about Sean Monahan and Sasha Barkov dude. I'm starting to think you've got a complex
Why don't you address my post, do you still think winning is random? Get a collection of good players together and win a random championship by Leaving it to luck.

BTW, I don't know when you are not talking Grabo, since you follow every post I make and seem to intimate it is about him.

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12-24-2012, 04:17 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Why don't you address my post, do you still think winning is random? Get a collection of good players together and win a random championship by Leaving it to luck.

BTW, I don't know when you are not talking Grabo, since you follow every post I make and seem to intimate it is about him.
I don't think your point is valid when discuss Barkov vs Monahan. Maybe either of them vs Drouin or Kessel or Spezza. Both Monahan and Barkov are known to be 2 way players. That's the key to being impactful as a 'winner'. Not some magical immeasurable character trait.

I suppose leadership would follow in that category. But if I have to choose between the higher end prospect and the guy with better leadership, I'd take the quiet shot blocking, all star first. That's if Barkov, at 17y/o in a mens league can take on a leadership role. I'm sure out of respect he just shuts his mouth and works hard for his team.

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12-24-2012, 04:23 PM
  #183
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I don't think your point is valid when discuss Barkov vs Monahan. Maybe either of them vs Drouin or Kessel or Spezza. Both Monahan and Barkov are known to be 2 way players. That's the key to being impactful as a 'winner'. Not some magical immeasurable character trait.

I suppose leadership would follow in that category. But if I have to choose between the higher end prospect and the guy with better leadership, I'd take the quiet shot blocking, all star first. That's if Barkov, at 17y/o in a mens league can take on a leadership role. I'm sure out of respect he just shuts his mouth and works hard for his team.
I have no problem with Finns, But I think like Burke and Mo tend to do. That is gravitate towards OHL/WHL produced players. Not an absolute, every situation is different, if there was no Jones, Mackinnon, or Monahan, I would take a shot with Barkov. But my preference is on players that have become stars far more out of a league that has produced more impact players than any other league.

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12-24-2012, 05:06 PM
  #184
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There are still a lot of players drafted in 97 that are impact players, infact some of the best players in the NHL last year. If they are good enough to be drafted then, and are still playing a relevant role, then your theory hockey is not an accurate one. Look at the 97 draft class and see how many great players are on this list, they are still NHL stars today. Maybe the league is actually oversaturated today infact, but that is another discussion.
What does this have to do with my post?

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12-24-2012, 05:09 PM
  #185
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Let's be logical, Doug Gilmour one would argue is a winner was traded to a terrible Leafs team, they won immediately after he became a Leaf, Toews is not as good as Gimour but he is in the same class. Obviously you cannot win a championship by yourself, but these guys make their teammates better, there is no denying this. What you are trying to say is for Grabo he has been very unlucky to have been part of some bad teams, but what I believe you are missing, Grabo on the 92 Leafs would not have made a difference. Now I am not comparing Grabo to Gilmour, even Bunjay would concede they are not in the same class, but there are some players that do make differences in the W/L column, Gilmour is a perfect example, that Leafs team was worst than the Leafs team last year, and they were 1 game away from the finals in Gilmour's first full year as a Leaf. Neidermayer made a huge contribution in The Ducks cup win. In a way you are helping me illustrate just how much the Leafs need to improve at Center, since it is obvious #84 has not made a difference in the W/L column since he became a Leaf. Would you not agree? It's not all his fault but he is incapable of doing what better players can do, and yes if the Leafs had Toews instead of Grabo, you wanna bet this awful team is closer to making the playoffs last year, infact I would wager had they had Toews the Leafs would have made the playoffs.
So... what you're saying is that you need good players to have a winning team? Who would have thought! :p

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12-24-2012, 05:18 PM
  #186
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I have no problem with Finns, But I think like Burke and Mo tend to do. That is gravitate towards OHL/WHL produced players. Not an absolute, every situation is different, if there was no Jones, Mackinnon, or Monahan, I would take a shot with Barkov. But my preference is on players that have become stars far more out of a league that has produced more impact players than any other league.
I respectfully disagree.

I think that Burke and Morrison would draft the best player available. As much as people like to point out that we only have a couple Euros on the team, and only a couple of Euro prospects, this has to do with the style of game, and not Origin.

In the case of Barkov vs. Monohan, I'm not going to pretend that I know who is better, because I haven't seen either of them play enough. BUT. What I do believe, is that if Burke and Morrison believe that Barkov has better hockey sense and abilities than Monohan (but less grit, and all else being equal), they will still draft Barkov, every time. Look at Reilly, he really doesn't play a physical, gritty type of game... but Burke liked what he brings, and got his guy.

Burke has shown that he likes his physical, gritty players, but each draft it seems like we find one or two of these anyways. (Rupert, Broll, Biggs, Carrick, Devane, etc.).

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12-24-2012, 06:09 PM
  #187
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I made a great comparison of another Finn, just now. Is it not possible he could be turn out to be another Jolli okinen? I don't have to explain drafting/scouting is not an exact science. I think we can both agree evaluating players from SM Liiga is tougher than the CJHL.
Is it not possible that monahan turns into another Chad Kilger?

This argument holds no weight, because it can be used on either side.

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12-24-2012, 06:15 PM
  #188
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Is it not possible that monahan turns into another Chad Kilger?

This argument holds no weight, because it can be used on either side.
Everything is possible.

For all you know he decides to pursue a different career path instead of the nhl

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12-24-2012, 06:23 PM
  #189
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From the games I've seen of Barkov, his biggest issue is his skating, aside from that he's actually pretty good in all aspects of the games. He's not a flashy player he never will be but he gets the job done and has impeccable timing of being at the right place at the right time. As well hands down gives pinpoint accurate passes.
Tavares skating to enter the league was not a strength. I thought the biggest difference between Stamkos and Tavares was the skating before they were drafted.

Tavares has improved a great deal in that department, which is something you can control. I'm not certain you can improve hockey IQ, you can learn more, but everyone can do that, and if you're starting with a naturally higher hockey sense, you can elevate that as well.

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12-24-2012, 06:26 PM
  #190
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Taking Monahan over Barkov would be an incredible gaffe by the Toronto scouts.

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12-24-2012, 06:33 PM
  #191
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Winning doesn't follow players around. The guys you listed went from good teams to other good teams. Saying that they won because of their "winning aura" (sounds like a passive ability on some RPG) is insulting to guys like Stevens, Giguere, Pronger, Mogilny, Selanne, Rafalski, Brodeur, Andy McDonald, etc. All very good players in their own right. You're evaluating the worth of the part by the accomplishments of the sum. Which just isn't a very good idea.
What are you talking about?

Messier's Cups in Vancouver, Gretzky's in LA and NY say ... oh wait.

Oh, my wife is calling I gotta go.

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12-24-2012, 06:35 PM
  #192
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The way Barkov is being touted in this thread, do you think 683 points in 1042 games, while being an okay top 6 Center in the NHL is fits the amount of superlatives he is getting in this thread? If it is, then we have or others have wasted alot of breath in this thread.

Jokinen is a great example of a player in a similar situation. Obcourse I am the only one that saw this as a very logical comparable.
The way all the players are being touted!!!!

Seriously, why is one nationality so superior to another? Last I checked they all came with the requisite body parts.

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12-24-2012, 07:08 PM
  #193
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The way all the players are being touted!!!!

Seriously, why is one nationality so superior to another? Last I checked they all came with the requisite body parts.
Agreed. If this draft had a martian from mars and he was the best out of the current three we get him.

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12-24-2012, 07:38 PM
  #194
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Well folks, it's that time again.... Time to get wine drunk, and talk hockey with the in-laws!

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, to everyone and their families

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12-24-2012, 07:39 PM
  #195
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Barkov is a better player, hands down, playing in a better league than the OHL, against MEN. There are many NHL players in that league right now, and he continues to shine.
Yep. Here are stats of some players in FEL:
Alexander Barkov, 32GP, 28p
Erik Karlsson, 28GP, 27p
Mikkel Bodker, 24GP, 23p
Rich Peverley, 24GP, 19p
Kyle Turris, 21GP, 19p
Frans Nielsen, 22GP, 18p
Valtteri Filppula, 16GP, 15p
Lars Eller, 11GP, 13p
Craig Smith, 8GP, 8p
Maxime Talbot, 12GP, 6p
Derek Stepan, 12GP, 4p
Patrick O'Sullivan, 8GP, 4p
Jussi Jokinen 13GP, 11p
Antti Miettinen 11GP, 6p

Those kind of names are the players Barkov has been facing this season. And even though he is only 17 he has been scoring about the same pace as the best of those.

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12-24-2012, 07:45 PM
  #196
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Is it not possible that monahan turns into another Chad Kilger?

This argument holds no weight, because it can be used on either side.
For every one Chad Kilger, there are far more Eric Staal's...I just picked him, but trust me there were many more choices I could pick from. The odds of getting it wrong with a CJHL player is far less than picking a Aki Berg, Joni Pitkanen, or Olli Jokinen. But to be fair Jokinen is probably the best and closest example, all SM Liiga players. All useful high picks, but none that deserved the fanfare Barkov is getting. Who knows maybe you are right and he becomes the greatest Finn since Selanne. But then again maybe Monahan becomes another Staal. Looking at the list of CJHL players at my finger tips, yeah I see a few Kilger's, but I see a whole lot more Staal's. If this were a betting game, I sure like my chances more than yours.

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12-24-2012, 07:54 PM
  #197
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The way all the players are being touted!!!!

Seriously, why is one nationality so superior to another? Last I checked they all came with the requisite body parts.
The law of averages, suggests there are certain leagues that are better for developing prospects than others. There are always exceptions to the rule, but you want the odds in your favour. There is more risk drafting a SM Liiga player than a CJHL prospect.

I went back at the last 20 drafts to Selanne, and you may be surprised how many Finns didn't pan out in the first rd. Saku Koivu is probably one of the better Finns along with Selanne drafted in the first rd, but anyone recall a Hannu Toivonen or Jesse Niinimaki just to name 2 of many?

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12-24-2012, 07:57 PM
  #198
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The odds of getting it wrong with a CJHL player is far less than picking a Aki Berg, Joni Pitkanen, or Olli Jokinen. But to be fair Jokinen is probably the best and closest example, all SM Liiga players. All useful high picks, but none that deserved the fanfare Barkov is getting. Who knows maybe you are right and he becomes the greatest Finn since Selanne. But then again maybe Monahan becomes like Staal.
Jokinen might physically and skill-wise be closest to Barkov but mentally Barkov should be way ahead. In 1996 when Jokinen transferred from KalPa to HIFK in FEL and became the top hockey prodigy of Finland it REALLY got into his head.

I don't know what he was like in the locker room but at least outside it he was really cocky. Saying "Don't you know who I am?" in public place is always a great way to make a fool of yourself. I remember hearing that Jokinen used those words as 18-19yo when he met a famous Finnish Formula 1 driver in a nightclub.

I am quite sure Barkov doesn't have same kind of attitude problem as Jokinen did in his age. Jokinen matured in North America (maybe because of Keenan) but Barkov isn't even in need of such school.

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12-24-2012, 08:02 PM
  #199
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I respectfully disagree.

I think that Burke and Morrison would draft the best player available. As much as people like to point out that we only have a couple Euros on the team, and only a couple of Euro prospects, this has to do with the style of game, and not Origin.

In the case of Barkov vs. Monohan, I'm not going to pretend that I know who is better, because I haven't seen either of them play enough. BUT. What I do believe, is that if Burke and Morrison believe that Barkov has better hockey sense and abilities than Monohan (but less grit, and all else being equal), they will still draft Barkov, every time. Look at Reilly, he really doesn't play a physical, gritty type of game... but Burke liked what he brings, and got his guy.
I don't know either, you leave that up to the scouts and Burke. But if I were a GM and I had a top 4 pick, you bet I want to be sure Barkov is sure to be as good or better than Jones, Mackinnon, Monahan and I will include Drouin. There is a comfort level knowing what you have in these kids to a boom pick like Barkov is, remember Zherdev in the 03 draft, Filatov in the 08 draft, yes these guys are Russians, but they all had the unknown factor to them to. Filatov was a can't miss by scouts that even to this day wonder why he never caught on, they all missed on him.

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12-24-2012, 08:12 PM
  #200
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Jokinen might physically and skill-wise be closest to Barkov but mentally Barkov should be way ahead. In 1996 when Jokinen transferred from KalPa to HIFK in FEL and became the top hockey prodigy of Finland it REALLY got into his head.

I don't know what he was like in the locker room but at least outside it he was really cocky. Saying "Don't you know who I am?" in public place is always a great way to make a fool of yourself. I remember hearing that Jokinen used those words as 18-19yo when he met a famous Finnish Formula 1 driver in a nightclub.

I am quite sure Barkov doesn't have same kind of attitude problem as Jokinen did in his age. Jokinen matured in North America (maybe because of Keenan) but Barkov isn't even in need of such school.
I don't mind cockiness as long as an athlete can back it up, really if you look at Jokenin's 17 year old stats, they are uncannily similar to Barkov's when you project Barkov's to a full season. Both are similar in size and stature, and both came from SM Liiga with heady promise of a hockey prodigy. Heck they even might go 3rd overall in the NHL entry draft. Very similar paths.

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