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Old
12-24-2012, 06:34 PM
  #226
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
Gretzky was 6'0" and 185lbs which would have made him about average in size relative to his peers. In fact he was about the same size as Dave Lumley. He was also much faster than you suggest. Gagner is more physical, but Gretzky seldom lost a puck battle. But in the end this is neither here nor there because Gretzky had absolutely incredible skill, far more so than Gagner.

The point is not that because of his size and skating Gagner cannot be an effective #2C. It is that many of us feel that the total package is not what it should be to be the #2C on this team, given the others in the top six who would seem to be more destined to be part of the core. Clearly some disagree, but using Gretzky as a comparative does nothing to help your argument.
He is using Gretzky to compare Gagner too ? First you would have to compare our number 1 center to Gretzky ..RNH and Gagner to our number 2 center at that time Messier . Sorry but as much as i like Sam he could not hold Messier jock strap . When teams focus on Gretzky Messier could take over physically , scoring and play a good 2 way game and make others better . Can Sam Gagner do any of these thing ?

If we are going to us Gretzky size as a comparison , then we need to take a look at who was the center behind him .

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12-24-2012, 10:51 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
sometimes a bird in hand stops your from reaching the bigger goal...
Tambo has proven that he is willing to let things unfold and only make a move if there is no other choice.

losing the bird in hand can force his hands and help us get a better 'bird'

An opening on the roster can also help attract quality NHLers who are looking for a new path.. ala J.Schultz, guys like MArleau and Getzlaf can consider a team like EDM if there was an opening..

same with guys like Bernier\Luongo\Thomas... they woulve considered EDM if EDM hadnt locked up Dubnyk to a new contract..
And if we lost Gagner and lose out on the Getzlaf lottery (probably the only number one center available), then we're stuck with Horcoff or Belanger as 2nd line center, or Lander. The former aren't top six centermen anymore, Lander isn't there yet. Centers are next to impossible to find, Gagner is better than the options, unless we actually have another option that we don`t have yet.

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12-24-2012, 11:32 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by The Nuge View Post
So now Tambo sucks for signing our starting goalie and #2C? If Getzlaf is interested in Edmonton, he can sign here and I'm sure Tambo can move Gags easily enough.
He signed our backup goalie to starter money.. Getzlaf won't come here if Gagner is signed to 4m x 4.. Just like JSchultz would not have signed here if we had no spot on D..(or if we drafted Murray)..
Nothing great but IMO Loungo would waive for Edm if DD was not signed this new contract.

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12-24-2012, 11:54 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
And if we lost Gagner and lose out on the Getzlaf lottery (probably the only number one center available), then we're stuck with Horcoff or Belanger as 2nd line center, or Lander. The former aren't top six centermen anymore, Lander isn't there yet. Centers are next to impossible to find, Gagner is better than the options, unless we actually have another option that we don`t have yet.
Jordan Staal just got traded for a 3rd liner and a 1st round pick. Surely, the Oilers could bring in a 2C for some combination of roster players, prospects or picks. Maybe not as good as Staal, but more suitable than Gagner. IMHO, right now the biggest needs are upgrades at 2C and at 4C. Would not hurt to add another top 4 defenseman either.

Ideal scenario to start 2013/2014 season

Hall-RNH-Eberle
Yakupov-A-Hemsky
Smyth-Belanger-Hartikainen
Eager-B-Jones
Petrell, Vande Velde

Petry-Smid
J.Schulz-C
N.Schulz-Klefbom
D

Dubnyk
E

bought out: Horcoff
trade bait: Gagner, Paajarvi, 1st round and 2nd picks in 2014

Players to target as UFAs or through trade:

A. Veteran 1a-2C (Getzlaf, Weiss, Legwand, Berglund, Laich, Anisimov, Dubinsky)
B. veteran 3-4D two way or defensive (Coburn, Seidenberg, B.Stuart, Klein)
C. veteran 4C (PK and face-off specialist (Steckel, G. Campbell, Pahlsson, Letestu).
D veteran 7D (Hannan).
E. veteran back-up goalie


Last edited by tiger_80: 12-25-2012 at 12:20 AM.
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Old
12-25-2012, 12:31 AM
  #230
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Originally Posted by tiger_80 View Post
Jordan Staal just got traded for a 3rd liner and a 1st round pick. Surely, the Oilers could bring in a 2C for some combination of roster players, prospects or picks. Maybe not as good as Staal, but more suitable than Gagner. IMHO, right now the biggest needs are upgrades at 2C and at 4C. Would not hurt to add another top 4 defenseman either.

Ideal scenario to start 2013/2014 season

Hall-RNH-Eberle
Yakupov-A-Hemsky
Smyth-Belanger-Hartikainen
Eager-B-Jones
Petrell, Vande Velde

Petry-Smid
J.Schulz-C
N.Schulz-Klefbom
D

Dubnyk
E

bought out: Horcoff
trade bait: Gagner, Paajarvi, 1st round and 2nd picks in 2014

Players to target as UFAs or through trade:

A. Veteran 1a-2C (Getzlaf, Weiss, Legwand, Berglund, Laich, Anisimov, Dubinsky)
B. veteran 3-4D two way or defensive (Coburn, Seidenberg, B.Stuart, Klein)
C. veteran 4C (PK and face-off specialist (Steckel, G. Campbell, Pahlsson, Letestu).
D veteran 7D (Hannan).
E. veteran back-up goalie
Who was the last center prior to Staal to be moved, who would be an upgrade at #2 center? You don't move a guy like Gagner in hopes that some other center falls into your lap, because it doesn't happen often.

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12-25-2012, 12:35 AM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
He signed our backup goalie to starter money.. Getzlaf won't come here if Gagner is signed to 4m x 4.. Just like JSchultz would not have signed here if we had no spot on D..(or if we drafted Murray)..
Nothing great but IMO Loungo would waive for Edm if DD was not signed this new contract.
I know you hate Dubnyk, but its pretty clear that he is our #1 goalie, not our backup. Even claiming he is our backup is wrong and foolish. Getzlaf isn't an idiot, and will know that if he signs here, its to take over Gagner's spot, not to compete with him. If Gagner is signed to 4m X 4, he is still a tradable piece, and if we had him at that price and still got Getzlaf, guess who is moved out then? Gagner. But you don't move out a decent 2nd line center so you might get a second 1st line center to sign here. You wait until the second 1st line center inks his name on the line. At his contract, Luongo would be a step backwards. He is better than Dubs, but is on a horrible contract and I wouldn't want him for nothing because of it.

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12-25-2012, 01:03 AM
  #232
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Originally Posted by tiger_80 View Post
Jordan Staal just got traded for a 3rd liner and a 1st round pick.
Wow, you should do PR for the Oilers with spin like that.

Sutter was Carolina's #2C and will now occupy the exact same roster spot that Staal just vacated (does that make Staal a 3rd line C?). That 1st rounder was also a top 10 selection and they added a prospect defenseman too. The other thing you're conveniently leaving out is the situation with Staal's contract. He was a year away from unrestricted free agency and wasn't going to sign an extension. It was also widely speculated that he was probably only a year away from signing with the Hurricanes anyway and that Carolina was possibly the only team he would've signed an extension with. Now I do think that Carolina was able to go out and make a good trade (they gave up a lot, but Staal is absolutely worth it), but that's not a trade that was available to really any other team or one that's going to be available to the Oilers any time soon. Not unless Ryan Getzlaf is Taylor Hall's long lost brother or something.


The fact of the matter is, no, it's not some small thing to aquire an established #2C who is better than Gagner and assuming the Oilers will be able to just pluck one off the ol' top 2 center tree is silly.

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12-25-2012, 01:54 AM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
sometimes a bird in hand stops your from reaching the bigger goal...
Tambo has proven that he is willing to let things unfold and only make a move if there is no other choice.

losing the bird in hand can force his hands and help us get a better 'bird'

An opening on the roster can also help attract quality NHLers who are looking for a new path.. ala J.Schultz, guys like MArleau and Getzlaf can consider a team like EDM if there was an opening..

same with guys like Bernier\Luongo\Thomas... they woulve considered EDM if EDM hadnt locked up Dubnyk to a new contract..
There's just so much here I disagree with that I almost don't know where to start.

First of all, Tambellini hasn't proven he's capable of (or even being willing to) making a move when there's already a gaping hole that needs filling. Having the worst defense in the league didn't stop him from deciding that signing Cam Barker and trading for Andy Sutton was all the work it needed. I didn't see him bringing in any centers before RNH came along either and all we had was Gagner. When it comes to needing legit NHL players, "doing nothing" is ALWAYS an option for Tambellini. He had to have proven that by now, no?

Getting a better 'bird' is great in theory, but Tambellini hasn't proven he can catch one that can actually fly. He's only collected eggs thus far.


Second, while I agree that the state of the Oilers' defense and the likelyhood of making the team probably played a big part in Schultz' decision to sign here, he was never guaranteed that by the Oilers (not that they had to) if you believe what he and the organization said.

Even that aside, what's true about a college player who's never played a minute of pro hockey in his life, isn't necessarily true about an established player like Getzlaf. Do you honestly think Getzlaf (to use the same example) would be less inclined to sign here because he'd be worried that Gagner would take his spot on the 2nd line? Hell, he'd probably have a good shot at the #1 spot. Almost every high end UFA signs for the same 2 reasons every year. Money and a chance to win a cup. Both if they can get it, money if it's significantly more than they can make elsewhere, and opportunity to win a cup if the money is still good. Why do you think teams like Philly always get the top UFAs each year? Sam Gagner being on the team won't stop anyone from signing here. Maybe we should've traded Hemsky back in '07 to increase our chances of landing Hossa.


Bernier? Luongo? Thomas? Did I miss something here? I don't recall hearing anything about Luongo or Thomas turning down a trade to the Oilers or Bernier having a NTC.

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12-25-2012, 02:44 AM
  #234
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@misfit

Bravo sir. The last two posts were spot on.

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12-25-2012, 12:41 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by misfit View Post
Wow, you should do PR for the Oilers with spin like that.

Sutter was Carolina's #2C and will now occupy the exact same roster spot that Staal just vacated (does that make Staal a 3rd line C?). That 1st rounder was also a top 10 selection and they added a prospect defenseman too. The other thing you're conveniently leaving out is the situation with Staal's contract. He was a year away from unrestricted free agency and wasn't going to sign an extension. It was also widely speculated that he was probably only a year away from signing with the Hurricanes anyway and that Carolina was possibly the only team he would've signed an extension with. Now I do think that Carolina was able to go out and make a good trade (they gave up a lot, but Staal is absolutely worth it), but that's not a trade that was available to really any other team or one that's going to be available to the Oilers any time soon. Not unless Ryan Getzlaf is Taylor Hall's long lost brother or something.


The fact of the matter is, no, it's not some small thing to aquire an established #2C who is better than Gagner and assuming the Oilers will be able to just pluck one off the ol' top 2 center tree is silly.
Sutter playing 2nd line minutes in Carolina does not change the fact that Pittsburgh traded Staal for a 30 point player (that's what Sutter is) and a top 10 pick. Be that as it may, which of the 2Cs on my list are in principle unobtainable through trade other than Getzlaf (legitimate 1C) who would have to be targeted as an UFA regardless? If Tambellini can't obtain one of Weiss, Legwand, Berglund, Laich, Anisimov, Dubinsky through some combination of roster players (e.g. Gagner, Hemsky), prospects (Paajarvi, Marincin, Gernat, Rieder) and draft picks (e.g. 1st round pick in 2014), then he probably should not be a GM.


Last edited by tiger_80: 12-25-2012 at 01:11 PM.
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Old
12-26-2012, 10:26 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
Gagner bet:
I win - you stop stalking, and sport an avatar of my choice for a whole season. You win - I never refer to SS as SS again, and the same avatar bet.
To be clear, by "stalking" you mean replying to any of your posts on this public message board?
If you and your sidekick stop making dumb posts then I will have no need to reply to them, a bet isn't really necessary to resolve that issue.
The full season avatar bet is acceptable, but I think you should compromise and give the kid another season to reach the mark.
Quote:
No extension for another season. He gets two years to hit the 70+ point plateau you are so sure he can hit. The 2013-14 and 2014-15 seasons. He should be continuing to improve his game this season so it is not lost as there was no way he was going to get there this year anyway.
Its "lost" in the sense that he loses one season in which to achieve NHL targets.
Twenty five is a pretty arbitrary cut off. Why are you so opposed to extending it till the end of his twenty six season?
I mean after all you don't think he will ever get seventy points right?
Quote:
Paajarvi bet:
I've said before I'd take the bet on MPS hitting 220 career points. Piece of cake.
Must have missed your earlier post where you accepted this bet. Apologies.
Quote:
I win - You admit you and your hotdog budy were wrong all along, sport an avatar of choice for life, and don't post a comment about Paajarvi for a year. You win - I admit I was wrong. Sport an avatar of choice for life, and I don't post a comment relating to Paajarvi for a year.
No way am I taking the avatar for life bet - on anything. Make it for a year and you've got a deal. No problem admitting when I'm wrong on a player, and for the record I still hope I am wrong about MPS.

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12-26-2012, 11:58 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by tiger_80 View Post
Sutter playing 2nd line minutes in Carolina does not change the fact that Pittsburgh traded Staal for a 30 point player (that's what Sutter is) and a top 10 pick. Be that as it may, which of the 2Cs on my list are in principle unobtainable through trade other than Getzlaf (legitimate 1C) who would have to be targeted as an UFA regardless? If Tambellini can't obtain one of Weiss, Legwand, Berglund, Laich, Anisimov, Dubinsky through some combination of roster players (e.g. Gagner, Hemsky), prospects (Paajarvi, Marincin, Gernat, Rieder) and draft picks (e.g. 1st round pick in 2014), then he probably should not be a GM.
Which ignores the circumstances that Staal was probably going there anyways. Add in the lockout and the fact Carolina may have paid that price for nothing considering Staal would have been pushed towards UFA(and signing with Carolina) without any games being played, horrible deal all around.

The rest is just fantasy. The idea that Tambi or the Oilers would be proactive, that Legwand, Berglund, Laich, Anisimov, Dubinsky would be avaliable, that anyone wants Hemsky or the Oiler's lower teir prospects, that the Oilers should trade a lottery pick for 2nd liners(if any hockey is actually played).

Also find it funny when I see Weiss's name when it comes to Gagner's replacement as well. They are similar players(small, limited defensively) and Gagner is following Weiss's career progression step for step, so it's always amusing when you see someone suggest trading Gagner for an older version of himself to somehow alleviate a poor fit on the roster.

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12-27-2012, 12:41 AM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
Which ignores the circumstances that Staal was probably going there anyways. Add in the lockout and the fact Carolina may have paid that price for nothing considering Staal would have been pushed towards UFA(and signing with Carolina) without any games being played, horrible deal all around.

The rest is just fantasy. The idea that Tambi or the Oilers would be proactive, that Legwand, Berglund, Laich, Anisimov, Dubinsky would be avaliable, that anyone wants Hemsky or the Oiler's lower teir prospects, that the Oilers should trade a lottery pick for 2nd liners(if any hockey is actually played).

Also find it funny when I see Weiss's name when it comes to Gagner's replacement as well. They are similar players(small, limited defensively) and Gagner is following Weiss's career progression step for step, so it's always amusing when you see someone suggest trading Gagner for an older version of himself to somehow alleviate a poor fit on the roster.
Has that been mentioned even once in this thread?

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12-27-2012, 12:57 AM
  #239
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Has that been mentioned even once in this thread?
That would be the post I quoted, Specificly -

Quote:
If Tambellini can't obtain one of Weiss, Legwand, Berglund, Laich, Anisimov, Dubinsky

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12-27-2012, 01:00 AM
  #240
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Fair enough.

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12-27-2012, 04:21 PM
  #241
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To be clear, by "stalking" you mean replying to any of your posts on this public message board?
If you and your sidekick stop making dumb posts then I will have no need to reply to them, a bet isn't really necessary to resolve that issue.
The full season avatar bet is acceptable, but I think you should compromise and give the kid another season to reach the mark.
Its "lost" in the sense that he loses one season in which to achieve NHL targets.
Twenty five is a pretty arbitrary cut off. Why are you so opposed to extending it till the end of his twenty six season?
I mean after all you don't think he will ever get seventy points right?
Must have missed your earlier post where you accepted this bet. Apologies.
No way am I taking the avatar for life bet - on anything. Make it for a year and you've got a deal. No problem admitting when I'm wrong on a player, and for the record I still hope I am wrong about MPS.
No extra year. He isnt a kid anymore. I would bet that in two years time that every member of our current top 6 will be 60-90 point players no reason why SS shouldnt be able to be a 70 point player with Hemsky, Hall, Eberle, Yakupov as his wingers, unless he continues to stagnate offensively.

1 year avatar bet for both bets. Deal?

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12-27-2012, 04:46 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
No extra year. He isnt a kid anymore. I would bet that in two years time that every member of our current top 6 will be 60-90 point players no reason why SS shouldnt be able to be a 70 point player with Hemsky, Hall, Eberle, Yakupov as his wingers, unless he continues to stagnate offensively.

1 year avatar bet for both bets. Deal?
Your really going to argue over one years time? If gags hits 70 points in the next couple of years and becomes tougher to play against then that is GREAT! All there is to it.

To me if gags can become solid defensively and on the draw while getting stronger and using his body more (he's not small) then he can put up 50-60 points and be a killer 2nd line center for us. And if we have to upgrade a bit then fine, but don't trade him for less than he's worth.

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12-27-2012, 05:21 PM
  #243
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Which ignores the circumstances that Staal was probably going there anyways. Add in the lockout and the fact Carolina may have paid that price for nothing considering Staal would have been pushed towards UFA(and signing with Carolina) without any games being played, horrible deal all around.

The rest is just fantasy. The idea that Tambi or the Oilers would be proactive, that Legwand, Berglund, Laich, Anisimov, Dubinsky would be avaliable, that anyone wants Hemsky or the Oiler's lower teir prospects, that the Oilers should trade a lottery pick for 2nd liners(if any hockey is actually played).

Also find it funny when I see Weiss's name when it comes to Gagner's replacement as well. They are similar players(small, limited defensively) and Gagner is following Weiss's career progression step for step, so it's always amusing when you see someone suggest trading Gagner for an older version of himself to somehow alleviate a poor fit on the roster.
Is Weiss not what most of us are hoping Gagner becomes?

Weiss has been consistently flirting with 60 points, staying around 53-55% on the draw and defensively responsible enough to see big minutes on the PK.

What's wrong with talking about Weiss as a possible #2C if you don't think Gagner will round out his game like Weiss did? It might not be a popular opinion to say Gagner could end up not accomplishing that, but definitely a valid one, imo.

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12-27-2012, 08:20 PM
  #244
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Is Weiss not what most of us are hoping Gagner becomes?

Weiss has been consistently flirting with 60 points, staying around 53-55% on the draw and defensively responsible enough to see big minutes on the PK.

What's wrong with talking about Weiss as a possible #2C if you don't think Gagner will round out his game like Weiss did? It might not be a popular opinion to say Gagner could end up not accomplishing that, but definitely a valid one, imo.
He doesn't fit with the team's core in terms of age. Oilers need more players heading into their prime, not out of it. By the time the Oilers are ready to compete for anything, Weiss's best days will be long behind him.

It's also highly unlikely that Gagner is going to be worse at 27 than he is at 23. People seem so disappointed by what Gags isn't, they forget he's not even in his best years yet, and the last thing this team needs to do is make another impatient Stoll/Greene type move on a player still finding his way.

But the main point is that dumping Gagner for the 6 year older version of himself accomplishes nothing, and most certainly doesn't achieve the desired "big, defensively responsible 2nd line center" mantra that gets thrown around when it comes to replacing Gagner's supposed crippling deficencies on the team moving forward.

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