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Old
12-23-2012, 03:07 PM
  #51
leafz
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Plus Bergeron's defensive qualities can be seen as over-valued (but still good) because he plays on such a defensive team

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12-23-2012, 03:17 PM
  #52
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I'm not saying Dougie Hamilton is a bad prospect but to come out and over-hype a guy that hasn't played an NHL game and to say boston wouldn't do the deal if it was just Hamilton in the deal, is just stupid. And to say that, that proposal is horrible when the guy gives decent points (its a better argument from a leafs fan than I've seen in a while) and just throw it down like that is stupid.

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Old
12-23-2012, 04:07 PM
  #53
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I'd just like to add a few things
-firstly Hamilton is not the next Bobby Orr
-I am not saying it is vital for Boston to trade away cap (yes this is not neccasarily a cap dump) but it always helps to loss cap especially when you are so close to the cap limit
-Cap that goes toward what? -Have you seen the free agency class for 2013
-Gardiner had success on a team with terrible defence, think how good he would be with a good defence to give him more confidence
-How would a forward prospect displace subban he is a goalie
-This is not a classic quantity for quality trade it is a quality for (quality + quantity) trade
- You have so many defensive/2way d men and no solid puck moving defence men so why not trade a 2 way for a puck mover
-why would adding prospects displace other prospects, it would make them want to compete harder to get the starting job

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Old
12-23-2012, 04:56 PM
  #54
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I know its a joke proposal but Ashton, Percy and Bozak wouldnt be part of the Bruins for at least 2 years, they have no where to fit in right now. Bruins also dont trade the best defensive prospect in the world for a pick and Jake Gardiner. On top of all that you want a player with the accomplishments of Bergeron on top of that?

Proposal is not even close and we all know it.

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Old
12-23-2012, 05:00 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leafz View Post
I'd just like to add a few things
-firstly Hamilton is not the next Bobby Orr
-I am not saying it is vital for Boston to trade away cap (yes this is not neccasarily a cap dump) but it always helps to loss cap especially when you are so close to the cap limit
-Cap that goes toward what? -Have you seen the free agency class for 2013
-Gardiner had success on a team with terrible defence, think how good he would be with a good defence to give him more confidence
-How would a forward prospect displace subban he is a goalie
-This is not a classic quantity for quality trade it is a quality for (quality + quantity) trade
- You have so many defensive/2way d men and no solid puck moving defence men so why not trade a 2 way for a puck mover
-why would adding prospects displace other prospects, it would make them want to compete harder to get the starting job
-Noted.
-Not when the cap space you gain comes from losing your best forward
-We won't have enough space for any big names even if we did this trade. Big raises for Lucic/Seguin/etc. come in place next year. Thomas leaving barely gives us enough, we'll probably have to part with more. It wouldn't help enough to be taken into consideration. And again, the cap space comes from losing our best forward.
-Sounds great, but I just remembered we lose Hamilton who has huge potential and will more than likely be the better player...
-Not sure what you're talking about.
-There's one quality piece from the Leafs in Gardiner, a decent one in the 1st, and nothing more than quantity with the others. For an elite forward and the best defensive prospect in the league.
-I think he means Spooner/KoKo etc would still be better, and I agree.

One more thing, Bergeron will never be traded. Krejci most likely won't, too, but a trade proposal with Bergeron in it is the most instantaneous turn off for Bruins fans. If you want a #1 center from the Bruins Krejci if your only target, and he's not going to the Leafs. Neither is Hamilton, sorry.

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Old
12-23-2012, 05:14 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leafz View Post
I'd just like to add a few things
-firstly Hamilton is not the next Bobby Orr
-I am not saying it is vital for Boston to trade away cap (yes this is not neccasarily a cap dump) but it always helps to loss cap especially when you are so close to the cap limit
-Cap that goes toward what? -Have you seen the free agency class for 2013
-Gardiner had success on a team with terrible defence, think how good he would be with a good defence to give him more confidence
-How would a forward prospect displace subban he is a goalie
-This is not a classic quantity for quality trade it is a quality for (quality + quantity) trade
- You have so many defensive/2way d men and no solid puck moving defence men so why not trade a 2 way for a puck mover
-why would adding prospects displace other prospects, it would make them want to compete harder to get the starting job
- No one has said Dougie Hamilton is Bobby Orr. B's fans have every right to be high on the kid and not want to part with him when the value is clearly off.

- Boston just re-signed Seguin, Marchand, Bergeron, Krejci and Looch to long term deals. Thomas' money comes off the books this summer and Savvy will forever be on LTIR giving Boston plenty of cap to re-sign the few players they have left.

- Boston can still look at adding key free agents without shipping out two extremely valuable assets.

- Dougie Hamilton fits Boston's mold better. He is also a very capable puck mover and PP QB which is exactly what Boston needs. The quintessential PMD with D zone issues has a recent history of not fairing well in Boston (See: Wideman, Corvo, Kaberle).

- You said Boston has a weak (not stronge) prospect pool. You didn't say deep. Had you said one of your reasons to trade was to bolster Boston's prospect depth I would have agreed Percy and Ashton would add to their depth. They don't however make Boston's top end of their prospect pool any heavier with high end talent. Shipping out a #1 pospect to get two guys that might not even crack their top-5 is poor asset management.

So again you have a #1a/b Selke winning 60-70 point center who is a leader and our #1 prospect (arguably the best D prospect in the world right now) for Gardiner a very good starting piece and certainly a need, Bozak who wouldn't even be our 4th best center after the trade, an uncertain 2014 pick which likely won't help the team for 4 or 5 years, Ashton a struggling prospect and Percy a run of the mill D prospect.

It was a bad trade proposal plain and simple. If you still can't see that feel free to post it in the Polls forum and see how non-Leaf/Bruins fans see it.

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Old
12-23-2012, 08:14 PM
  #57
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I do not think you can say Bruins have not had success with puck moving d men when you give examples like Joe Corvo (old and beyond his prime), Kaberle (has not done good on any team after the leafs) and widemen (has actually been pretty successful for the bruins).

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Old
12-24-2012, 08:46 AM
  #58
Oates2Neely
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Gardiner
TOR 2nd

for

M.Subban
1st

*no chance you're getting Bergeron and Hamilton for the pile of scrubs

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Old
12-24-2012, 08:49 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
Gardiner
TOR 2nd

for

M.Subban
1st

*no chance you're getting Bergeron and Hamilton for the pile of scrubs
Psssh.

Yeah right.

You'll be forking over Mcquaid and Kelly for that package.

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Old
12-24-2012, 08:50 AM
  #60
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I wouldn't trade Bergeron 1 for 1 for anyone on the Leafs... not Kessel, not Neon Dion... no one.

If Leafs want Bergeron it's Reilly + Bozak + 2013 1st and not sure that get's it done.

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Old
12-24-2012, 10:35 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Uncle Howie View Post
I wouldn't trade Bergeron 1 for 1 for anyone on the Leafs... not Kessel, not Neon Dion... no one.

If Leafs want Bergeron it's Reilly + Bozak + 2013 1st and not sure that get's it done.
Bozak would have no place on the Bruins. Nothing against him but even without Patty B its Krejci,Seguin,Kelly,Peverley, and Campbell ahead of him with all those players being inked for multiple years yet! Bergeron is the heart of the Bruins and the next B to wear the C after Z. If he could be pulled out of Boston it would take a overpayment.

Reilly, Gardiner, Colborne, 2013 1st for Bergeron

Yes I realize how heavy of a price that is.

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Old
12-24-2012, 12:02 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Better in theory than in practice, IMO

1 - The Bruins don't need to add.
2 - Where would Franson play with the Bruins, exactly?
I'm not a fan of Franson at all, and don't want him on the B's, but there are absolutely spots on the B's for a dman. I don't think Hamilton is ready to be a full time defenseman on a playoff team. Krug has been disappointing in Providence, and is a question, with his size, to ever make the NHL, and Adam McQuaid had surgery on his shoulder (he may be ready by now, but who knows?).

Chara
Seidenberg
Boychuck
Ference

Still need 2 more every day NHL quality defensemen and 1-2 back ups. Assume McQuaid is ready to go, and that Aaron Johnson can be the 7th, I still see need for a bottom pairing defenseman. I know everyone assumes that will be Hamilton, but from what I've seen of him in limited viewing (summer tourney, pre-WJC exhibitions) he doesn't seem ready for that kind of role. Next year? Sure. This year? Not sure.

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Old
12-24-2012, 12:05 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by roflstomper View Post
I know its a joke proposal but Ashton, Percy and Bozak wouldnt be part of the Bruins for at least 2 years, they have no where to fit in right now. Bruins also dont trade the best defensive prospect in the world for a pick and Jake Gardiner. On top of all that you want a player with the accomplishments of Bergeron on top of that?

Proposal is not even close and we all know it.
It's not close, you are right. But I don't think Hamilton is the best defensive prospect in the world. Jones, Schultz, Rielly are all better IMO (and Craig Button agrees on Schultz and Rielly).

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12-24-2012, 12:12 PM
  #64
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Obligated to leave Komi in?? Is the same organization that felt "obligated" to dump over paid Jeff Finger in the AHL?

Lets stop with the excuses, Franson didn't cut it on the Leafs blue line,, that doesn't speak much of him.
Anyone who watched Franson or Komisarek last year regularly will tell you Franson played much better.

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12-24-2012, 12:33 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by roflstomper View Post
I know its a joke proposal but Ashton, Percy and Bozak wouldnt be part of the Bruins for at least 2 years, they have no where to fit in right now. Bruins also dont trade the best defensive prospect in the world for a pick and Jake Gardiner. On top of all that you want a player with the accomplishments of Bergeron on top of that?

Proposal is not even close and we all know it.

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Old
12-24-2012, 12:35 PM
  #66
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Why does Rielly get brought up in every thread?

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Old
12-24-2012, 01:14 PM
  #67
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I would do Rielly, biggs, 2013 1st (given its not in top 5) and macarther for bergeron but i wouldnt put rielly and gardiner in the same package and i dont know why bruins would want both rielly and gardiner they are both very similiar players

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12-24-2012, 02:05 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by leafz View Post
I would do Rielly, biggs, 2013 1st (given its not in top 5) and macarther for bergeron but i wouldnt put rielly and gardiner in the same package and i dont know why bruins would want both rielly and gardiner they are both very similiar players
You're not getting Bergeron... If you want an offer we'll actually read change it to Krejci.

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12-25-2012, 09:13 AM
  #69
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It's not close, you are right. But I don't think Hamilton is the best defensive prospect in the world. Jones, Schultz, Rielly are all better IMO (and Craig Button agrees on Schultz and Rielly).
Craig Button has no credibility,, he just loves to go 'against the grain', as you yourself do.

Reilly and Jones are no doubt very good dmen, but Hamilton is better than both at the moment. And I think most teams if they had the choice would take Hamilton.

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12-25-2012, 11:14 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
Craig Button has no credibility,, he just loves to go 'against the grain', as you yourself do.

Reilly and Jones are no doubt very good dmen, but Hamilton is better than both at the moment. And I think most teams if they had the choice would take Hamilton.
I totally disagree. Most teams would absolutely take Jones, and I don't think it's even all that close. If there's a redraft of the 2011 draft, do you think Hamilton jumps over Larsson? I don't, and I think Jones > Larsson. Heck, I'd put Trouba up on par with any dman taken in the last 2 drafts, and don't forget about Brodin or Ryan Murray too.

My point is that there are a ton of great young d prospects and to call Hamilton the best in the world is overstating it. He's not even the best dman on Team Canada right now, in fact, in the 2 games of the pre-tourney games and the tournament over the summer he hasn't been one of Canada's top 3 dmen. Fantastic prospect who will be very very good, but not the best in the world.

As far as your baseless personal insult... sorry I judge players by how I see them not by blind homerism. I don't apologize for that.


Last edited by Dr Quincy: 12-25-2012 at 11:26 AM.
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Old
12-25-2012, 11:23 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Fastasaurus View Post
Bozak would have no place on the Bruins. Nothing against him but even without Patty B its Krejci,Seguin,Kelly,Peverley, and Campbell ahead of him with all those players being inked for multiple years yet! Bergeron is the heart of the Bruins and the next B to wear the C after Z. If he could be pulled out of Boston it would take a overpayment.

Reilly, Gardiner, Colborne, 2013 1st for Bergeron

Yes I realize how heavy of a price that is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Howie View Post
I wouldn't trade Bergeron 1 for 1 for anyone on the Leafs... not Kessel, not Neon Dion... no one.

If Leafs want Bergeron it's Reilly + Bozak + 2013 1st and not sure that get's it done.

for Bergeron, serial

you guys kill me..........merry christmas

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Old
12-25-2012, 04:09 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
I totally disagree. Most teams would absolutely take Jones, and I don't think it's even all that close. If there's a redraft of the 2011 draft, do you think Hamilton jumps over Larsson? I don't, and I think Jones > Larsson. Heck, I'd put Trouba up on par with any dman taken in the last 2 drafts, and don't forget about Brodin or Ryan Murray too.

My point is that there are a ton of great young d prospects and to call Hamilton the best in the world is overstating it. He's not even the best dman on Team Canada right now, in fact, in the 2 games of the pre-tourney games and the tournament over the summer he hasn't been one of Canada's top 3 dmen. Fantastic prospect who will be very very good, but not the best in the world.

As far as your baseless personal insult... sorry I judge players by how I see them not by blind homerism. I don't apologize for that.
It's all a matter of opinion. In my opinion, Hamiltons blend of size, skating ability, defensive awareness and puck control are unmatched by Jones, Reilly, Trouba and Murray. While each possesses an excellent skill set, i find Hamiltons package far more promising.

That was not a personal insult, a brief search of your post history shows you enjoy playing devils advocate.

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Old
12-25-2012, 04:37 PM
  #73
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- No one has said Dougie Hamilton is Bobby Orr. B's fans have every right to be high on the kid and not want to part with him when the value is clearly off.
Not you personally but I have seen comments from other Bruins fans calling Dougie Hamilton a future Norris Trophy winner and etc. Now there is nothing wrong with being excited for a prospect because I can't wait until Morgan Rielly plays in Toronto. However you can't deny that there are some Bruins fans who are really overhyping Hamilton before he even plays his 1st NHL game. However it's something all fan bases do, but you have to admit some Bruins fans have been guilty with the Norris Trophy comments.

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12-25-2012, 06:12 PM
  #74
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Not you personally but I have seen comments from other Bruins fans calling Dougie Hamilton a future Norris Trophy winner and etc. Now there is nothing wrong with being excited for a prospect because I can't wait until Morgan Rielly plays in Toronto. However you can't deny that there are some Bruins fans who are really overhyping Hamilton before he even plays his 1st NHL game. However it's something all fan bases do, but you have to admit some Bruins fans have been guilty with the Norris Trophy comments.
I'd easily admit that. Every fanbase has their idiots. But that's the problem with this board. People have to make comments generalizing fanbases trying to rile up the masses. It dumbs down the debate and doesn't add anything to the discussion. It must annoy the hell out of Leaf fans. I know it annoys me.

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Old
12-25-2012, 06:37 PM
  #75
Dr Quincy
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
It's all a matter of opinion. In my opinion, Hamiltons blend of size, skating ability, defensive awareness and puck control are unmatched by Jones, Reilly, Trouba and Murray. While each possesses an excellent skill set, i find Hamiltons package far more promising.

That was not a personal insult, a brief search of your post history shows you enjoy playing devils advocate.
1) Seth Jones is 1" shorter than Hamilton, but bigger. Larsson is all of 2" smaller. I'd say Jones' skating ability is better than Hamilton's, Larsson's puck control is far better, and as far as defensive awareness, I have not at all been impressed by Hamilton's (haven't really seen enough of Jones to know about him there, but scouts seem to all have him rated higher than Hamilton at the same age). Do you catch a lot of OHL games, and have seen Hamilton in them? I haven't, I've only seen the international games and his decision making, puck handling and defensive awareness have all looked to be RELATIVE weak points. I've seen him take quite a few dumb penalties and made bad reads in his own end. Now I'm totally willing to say that if you see any dman enough you'll find plays like that, but I think the consensus amongst most hockey people is that Hamilton is not the best defensive prospect in the world right now. Doesn't mean he isn't a great prospect, just not the best.

2) "Devil's advocate" implies that someone is arguing a point they don't really believe in. Sorry, doesn't apply to me. Say whatever you want about me but I believe what I say.

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