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Lockout V: Take the Long Way Home

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Old
12-24-2012, 04:54 PM
  #826
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
You don't lose the salary, you lose the job. How do you lose something before you have it?
The NHL players haven't lost their jobs.

Often when people are laid off they get those jobs back when they are available again, just as the NHL players will get theirs back (well, most of them) when the lockout is over.

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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
The players are gaining some health and safety but forfeiting hundreds of millions of dollars going forward. That's a net loss no matter how you look at it.
But you said "how do you lose something before you have it" and this is money they don't have yet. They're not taking money back from the players, they're just not going to get it. So it's not a net loss.

If you're saying they're losing it because they're forfeiting something they *had,* then the same can be said for the salary they haven't been paid. It's something they *had* that they didn't get going forward from the original start date of the season.

I just don't see a difference between the two, except that the salary is something they would have received if they were playing, and the money going forward is something they're still negotiating over and aren't even entitled to at this point.

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It really depends on your financial situation. I enjoy time off and spending time with my family and friends, I'm sure most players do too. They probably don't miss the wear and tear on their bodies or the travel either.
That's all fine, but totally irrelevant and unresponsive to what I asked.

I'll answer... if I was laid off from what for me was a rather well paying job and didn't receive salary for three months, and then sat down and looked at my bills and my checking account balance, I'd sure as heck look at it as 3 months of pay I'd lost. And, frankly, the way these players are carrying on about money, I'd be willing to bet there's not a one of 'em who doesn't look at not receiving their paychecks the exact same way.

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12-24-2012, 05:24 PM
  #827
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
So what exactly was the PA going to strike for?

You pretend to know that they would have gone on strike, so surely you must know why and what they would have demanded.

This isn't semantics. This is reality.
Aren't you the same guy who started the thread about Fehr going after the cap when the season is cancelled? Surely you must know what he was going to offer in exchange, right? Or are you under the impression the league (that gave up a season to get that cap) would finally just buckle to his superior negotating skills and give up the cap for free?

As far as knowing whether or not the players would have went on strike, I agree nobody knows. To blame the league is wrong though. All the league can do is go by past history, and I'm sure you know what that history is.

You point a finger at Betteman for labor stopages under his leadership but ignore those Fehr has been involved with.

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12-24-2012, 08:40 PM
  #828
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I hear a lot of people say the season will be cancelled, but what they don't realize that if there's no season, it will cause permanent damage to the league.

NHL is only the #1 sport in the 7 Canadian teams. All the American franchises it falls way behind. So how can the league and players expect the game to survive if it's gone for another full season?

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12-24-2012, 08:58 PM
  #829
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Originally Posted by Jaffray15 View Post
I hear a lot of people say the season will be cancelled, but what they don't realize that if there's no season, it will cause permanent damage to the league.

NHL is only the #1 sport in the 7 Canadian teams. All the American franchises it falls way behind. So how can the league and players expect the game to survive if it's gone for another full season?
This is why it's hilarious, because the NHL is so poorly run there will be another cancelled season that permanently destroys the league.

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Old
12-24-2012, 10:16 PM
  #830
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This is why it's hilarious, because the NHL is so poorly run there will be another cancelled season that permanently destroys the league.
People said the same thing during the last lockout, though. It's pretty obvious that the league's owners don't agree with such apocalyptic predictions and, to put it bluntly, I'm not expecting fans to stay away for long regardless.

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12-24-2012, 11:39 PM
  #831
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As long as they agree to paint "THANK YOU FANS" along the bluelines, I will forgive them all for anything. I mean, what an amazing gesture.

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Old
12-25-2012, 12:55 AM
  #832
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
Would either of you feel the same way if you were locked out from your jobs for 3 months? Would you look at the balance in your checking account 100 days out and bemoan the fact that you've lost three months of pay, or would you just shrug it off and say you're locked out, not working, haven't lost any salary?
Considering the choices( Accepting a paycut from 57% to 43%, or fight but eventually come to a deal that is more favourable to me) I most certainly would.

This is not a choice on the players' part: They're going to be making less money. I'd fully stand behind my union for mitigating our losses and the degrading of our bargaining strength in the long run.

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12-25-2012, 01:12 AM
  #833
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Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
People said the same thing during the last lockout, though. It's pretty obvious that the league's owners don't agree with such apocalyptic predictions and, to put it bluntly, I'm not expecting fans to stay away for long regardless.
I don't recall seeing anywhere near the amount of apathy/malaise for the last lockout as I do this one. I think fans are more likely to get over being upset or angry but melancholy? I'm not so sure.

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12-25-2012, 02:44 AM
  #834
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
Considering the choices( Accepting a paycut from 57% to 43%, or fight but eventually come to a deal that is more favourable to me) I most certainly would.
Wait, you've lost me here. You certainly would... what? Be willing to fight? Or you wouldn't consider the pay you don't get for a year you should have been getting it to be "lost"? The 57%-43% is throwing me since that's ancient history, so I'm not sure if you're referring to July when it was relevant or to the present. Sorry, I'm just confused.

Quote:
This is not a choice on the players' part: They're going to be making less money. I'd fully stand behind my union for mitigating our losses and the degrading of our bargaining strength in the long run.
There isn't any such thing as "the long run" for most hockey players. Average career is what, 4-5 years? Face it, "the long run" that's being fought for is strictly for an elite minority of players and the rest of the players be damned. It's got to be rough on the regular players, who are the ones paying a huge price to keep the superstars rolling in dough, since the superstars are the only ones really pertinent to the remaining issues.

It will be interesting (and sad) to see how many players have their careers end during this lockout and if they will consider this year's non-pay as lost income or not.

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Old
12-25-2012, 09:38 AM
  #835
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Yes a loss of the season will mean damage to the league--in particular to the southern tier teams where the nhl was trying to grow the game and where those who had invested their money were losing it-paying nhl salaries while only recouping minor league receipts. The nhl will lose face with some contraction and some transfers. The players will lose a lot of jobs and will have to leave the golf courses in the South. the sand and the surf behind to play where the fans remain. If I never see Phoenix, Florida, Nashville, Columbus, etc in my team's building I will not shed a tear...

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Old
12-25-2012, 09:39 AM
  #836
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
People said the same thing during the last lockout, though. It's pretty obvious that the league's owners don't agree with such apocalyptic predictions and, to put it bluntly, I'm not expecting fans to stay away for long regardless.
This is different from the last lockout. You don't have Ovechkin and the draft for Crosby to build interest. This would also be the 2nd full year lost in the last 7 years, I think.

Fans in the Canadian cities won't stay away, but you can guarantee ones in the states will.

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Old
12-25-2012, 10:06 AM
  #837
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Originally Posted by Jaffray15 View Post
Fans in the Canadian cities won't stay away, but you can guarantee ones in the states will.
As I said in another thread, the arenas in Canada will still be sold out as there'll always be someone to jump in and replace those who've ditched the NHL - but overall there will be a loss of fans. There'll be less people watching on TV, buying merchandise, etc.

It doesn't matter how big a fan you are of a sport - people who are really peeved will bail. I know a few people who were HUGE hockey fans and bailed the last lockout and have yet to return (and this new lockout seals the deal even further for them). I also know someone who used to be a huge baseball fan (his favourite sport) and he ditched the last strike.

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Old
12-25-2012, 10:18 AM
  #838
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For those of you who like to **** on the Southern expansion here is Team USAs WJC roster. 3 kids from OH and one from each of FL CA and TX.

I wonder what happened 12-15 years ago to get kids from those areas interested in hockey?

http://worldjuniors.usahockey.com/pa...iminary-roster

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Old
12-25-2012, 10:20 AM
  #839
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Quote:
Originally Posted by berklon View Post
As I said in another thread, the arenas in Canada will still be sold out as there'll always be someone to jump in and replace those who've ditched the NHL - but overall there will be a loss of fans. There'll be less people watching on TV, buying merchandise, etc.

It doesn't matter how big a fan you are of a sport - people who are really peeved will bail. I know a few people who were HUGE hockey fans and bailed the last lockout and have yet to return (and this new lockout seals the deal even further for them). I also know someone who used to be a huge baseball fan (his favourite sport) and he ditched the last strike.
Those numbers are minor and eventhough I agree with you, it isn't enough to change the way Canadians feel about the NHL game itself and the players they're fans of.

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12-25-2012, 10:22 AM
  #840
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The NHLPA lead by Fehr will push this to the limit, the owners will never give in and the season will be canceled. And in the end the players will end up excepting a deal very similar to the one offered a month ago by the owners. That's how I see this playing out and I think the players are ignorant for thinking they are going to squeeze more out of something that is clearly broken as it is. I don't know what Donald Fehr is telling these guys but this lockout will be devestating for the players in the long run. Especially the average player.

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12-25-2012, 10:37 AM
  #841
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I believe Fehr's end game is to get this thing into the courts. That is where historically (MLB) he has had his most success. I don't believe he came out of retirement to negotiate a concessionary cap deal. What would tha add to his legacy. He wants negotiations to fail, land in the courts and hopefully blow up the cap along the way. That would add to his legacy. I always thought he came out of retirement only to kill the cap. I was surprised when he basically conceded the cap early in the negotiations. I think he realized negotiating the cap was a non starter and the only way to go after it was to fail the negotiations and get in front of the courts. Problem with this approach is that it is very high risk and will most likely hurt the players, the owners and the game in general. However I don't believe Fehr really cares about any of those things other than his "anti cap" legacy.

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12-25-2012, 10:42 AM
  #842
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Originally Posted by Ianturnbull View Post
I believe Fehr's end game is to get this thing into the courts. That is where historically (MLB) he has had his most success. I don't believe he came out of retirement to negotiate a concessionary cap deal. What would tha add to his legacy. He wants negotiations to fail, land in the courts and hopefully blow up the cap along the way. That would add to his legacy. I always thought he came out of retirement only to kill the cap. I was surprised when he basically conceded the cap early in the negotiations. I think he realized negotiating the cap was a non starter and the only way to go after it was to fail the negotiations and get in front of the courts. Problem with this approach is that it is very high risk and will most likely hurt the players, the owners and the game in general. However I don't believe Fehr really cares about any of those things other than his "anti cap" legacy.
We shall see soon. If the NHL cancels the season then I also believe Fehr will attack the cap. The problem is the NHL is not the MLB and it doesn't have unlimited growth and revenue potential. I said it a year ago when they hired him and I will say it now; Donald Fehr's legacy may end up being destroying the NHL as we knew it.

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12-25-2012, 11:08 AM
  #843
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I agree. Not only is the NHL not the MLB, although I am no expert I would also guess that removing a cap system is a lot more difficult than preventing one.

I feel sorry for the players. I don't think anybody - owners, agents, Fehr, etc have their best interests. They all are conflicted. I also think Fehr arranged things so that he has way too much power over the players. A prime example of that is Fehr hiring his owner brother to be his number 2. The players should never have let that happen. Who do they go to if they are unhappy? That being said as much as they are losing in all this and will lose more as time goes by, they still will enjoy a profession many of us only dream about.

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Old
12-25-2012, 11:50 AM
  #844
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Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
We shall see soon. If the NHL cancels the season then I also believe Fehr will attack the cap. The problem is the NHL is not the MLB and it doesn't have unlimited growth and revenue potential. I said it a year ago when they hired him and I will say it now; Donald Fehr's legacy may end up being destroying the NHL as we knew it.
I've been beating the same drum for a while now, in the summer time I said half a season at best, and if a season is lost....why not 2, because the PA seems to be of the impression that if it goes over a year then they will bow down to Fehr and give him whatever he wants.

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12-25-2012, 12:01 PM
  #845
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Originally Posted by Ianturnbull View Post
I believe Fehr's end game is to get this thing into the courts. That is where historically (MLB) he has had his most success. I don't believe he came out of retirement to negotiate a concessionary cap deal. What would tha add to his legacy. He wants negotiations to fail, land in the courts and hopefully blow up the cap along the way. That would add to his legacy. I always thought he came out of retirement only to kill the cap. I was surprised when he basically conceded the cap early in the negotiations. I think he realized negotiating the cap was a non starter and the only way to go after it was to fail the negotiations and get in front of the courts. Problem with this approach is that it is very high risk and will most likely hurt the players, the owners and the game in general. However I don't believe Fehr really cares about any of those things other than his "anti cap" legacy.
There is a strong possibility that this opinion is correct unfortunately. We'll know in 2 weeks how likely it can become reality.

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12-25-2012, 12:36 PM
  #846
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I feel the same way about canadian teams
Including Toronto and Montreal huh... thanks for respecting the games history.

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12-25-2012, 12:41 PM
  #847
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Originally Posted by hizzoner View Post
Yes a loss of the season will mean damage to the league--in particular to the southern tier teams where the nhl was trying to grow the game and where those who had invested their money were losing it-paying nhl salaries while only recouping minor league receipts. The nhl will lose face with some contraction and some transfers. The players will lose a lot of jobs and will have to leave the golf courses in the South. the sand and the surf behind to play where the fans remain. If I never see Phoenix, Florida, Nashville, Columbus, etc in my team's building I will not shed a tear...
Brush up on georgaphy...Columbus is not the south...paging mayor bee.
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Originally Posted by berklon View Post
As I said in another thread, the arenas in Canada will still be sold out as there'll always be someone to jump in and replace those who've ditched the NHL - but overall there will be a loss of fans. There'll be less people watching on TV, buying merchandise, etc.

It doesn't matter how big a fan you are of a sport - people who are really peeved will bail. I know a few people who were HUGE hockey fans and bailed the last lockout and have yet to return (and this new lockout seals the deal even further for them). I also know someone who used to be a huge baseball fan (his favourite sport) and he ditched the last strike.
Too many people don't get this... an overall downtrend is a bad thing! The days of 3 million for Saturday night in November are over...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
For those of you who like to **** on the Southern expansion here is Team USAs WJC roster. 3 kids from OH and one from each of FL CA and TX.

I wonder what happened 12-15 years ago to get kids from those areas interested in hockey?

http://worldjuniors.usahockey.com/pa...iminary-roster
So what? There are many great basketball players coming out of the GTA. No one talks about that ever so why should that be an argument for hockey ? One kid from TX wow. Complain about that all you want but knowing that southern teams don't draw as well in the MLB or NBA should tell you this was never a hockey to begin with, seems like both you and the Canadians here should have recognized that by now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
We shall see soon. If the NHL cancels the season then I also believe Fehr will attack the cap. The problem is the NHL is not the MLB and it doesn't have unlimited growth and revenue potential. I said it a year ago when they hired him and I will say it now; Donald Fehr's legacy may end up being destroying the NHL as we knew it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ianturnbull View Post
I agree. Not only is the NHL not the MLB, although I am no expert I would also guess that removing a cap system is a lot more difficult than preventing one.

I feel sorry for the players. I don't think anybody - owners, agents, Fehr, etc have their best interests. They all are conflicted. I also think Fehr arranged things so that he has way too much power over the players. A prime example of that is Fehr hiring his owner brother to be his number 2. The players should never have let that happen. Who do they go to if they are unhappy? That being said as much as they are losing in all this and will lose more as time goes by, they still will enjoy a profession many of us only dream about.
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Originally Posted by JAX View Post
I've been beating the same drum for a while now, in the summer time I said half a season at best, and if a season is lost....why not 2, because the PA seems to be of the impression that if it goes over a year then they will bow down to Fehr and give him whatever he wants.

So you guys are shocked that Fehr smelt blood? Did you really think the Leafs Rangers Flyers are interested in a 2 year lockout for Jacobs? Tell me if Don "wins" will you come back as fans?

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Old
12-25-2012, 12:59 PM
  #848
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
Too many people don't get this... an overall downtrend is a bad thing! The days of 3 million for Saturday night in November are over...
The lockouts don't drive away fans like you'd think they would. I know it makes sense in theory but it never ends up working out that way.

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12-25-2012, 01:05 PM
  #849
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
Brush up on georgaphy...Columbus is not the south...paging mayor bee.

Too many people don't get this... an overall downtrend is a bad thing! The days of 3 million for Saturday night in November are over...


So what? There are many great basketball players coming out of the GTA. No one talks about that ever so why should that be an argument for hockey ? One kid from TX wow. Complain about that all you want but knowing that southern teams don't draw as well in the MLB or NBA should tell you this was never a hockey to begin with, seems like both you and the Canadians here should have recognized that by now.








So you guys are shocked that Fehr smelt blood? Did you really think the Leafs Rangers Flyers are interested in a 2 year lockout for Jacobs? Tell me if Don "wins" will you come back as fans?
It's not all about Jacobs, there is also about half the league that is losing or not making much money. It's not worth it for them to sign a bad CBA for a possible 10 years and lose money for a decade. It's hard for Don to "win" at this point but if he can't I will be surprised if he doesn't go nuclear.

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12-25-2012, 03:35 PM
  #850
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Yes I know Columbus is in Ohio and is not south as we know it. I should have made it clear that that statement was on a slightly different topic--I was saying-and not too well obviously-that there is no rivalry and therefor little interest in those teams when they are the visitors. So their local fan interest- or disinterest- is matched to some degree by other fans in other rinks...I go to see my team and those with whom there has been some history.

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