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Round 2, Vote 7 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

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Old
12-24-2012, 06:28 PM
  #351
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Connell only played 1 game the season before. Perhaps that is what the comeback reference is to.
Yeah, you're probably right. 15 games in 1932-33 and 1 game in 1933-34. That's when he seems to have lost his starting job for a bit. Should have put two and two together, since there was so much talk of him losing his starting job. Though losing his starting job for a bit doesn't really make him unique among goalies this round.

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12-24-2012, 07:05 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
I suspect there must be some silent Connell advocates out there.

Considering the trashing he's getting and even his defenders saying its still not time for him, how else does he come up for this vote?
Technically, the goalies available would have ended up in the 26-to-38th position in the master list.

There just need to be one person putting Connell at, say, 25th, to "cancel" somebody ranking him, say, 51st. In that situation, his "mean" would still be in the current group.

For the record, I had him 37th (and wish would have rated him a bit higher).

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12-24-2012, 07:07 PM
  #353
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Startling statement : I think Grant Fuhr doesn't belong in the Top-4.

Flame away.

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12-24-2012, 07:49 PM
  #354
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Startling statement : I think Grant Fuhr doesn't belong in the Top-4.

Flame away.
I just don't see any way that Fuhr doesn't make the top 4. For a few years in the late 80s, he was often considered the best goalie in the world. Is there anyone but Fuhr left on the list who can make the claim that a significant number of people thought he was the best in the world over a number of years (after World War I)? I thought last round the only ones left who could even make that claim were Lehman, Thompson, and Fuhr, and now Fuhr's the only one left. He was very good in the playoffs, and has good longevity too (although he was certainly up and down after the 80s).

What's your case against Fuhr?

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12-24-2012, 07:50 PM
  #355
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Yeah, I was kind of wondering, do we just guess or does he tell us?

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12-24-2012, 08:14 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I just don't see any way that Fuhr doesn't make the top 4. For a few years in the late 80s, he was often considered the best goalie in the world. Is there anyone but Fuhr left on the list who can make the claim that a significant number of people thought he was the best in the world over a number of years (after World War I)? I thought last round the only ones left who could even make that claim were Lehman, Thompson, and Fuhr, and now Fuhr's the only one left. He was very good in the playoffs, and has good longevity too (although he was certainly up and down after the 80s).

What's your case against Fuhr?
Well, I think you're completely wrong in regards to Thompson, but whatever (really not the point).

I don't know. Maybe because I remember Fuhr being somewhat of a good goalie, but no more? Sometimes, it's okay to question media reports, and from I've seen from Fuhr, I just never had the impression he was the greatest at a given point.

I'll be clear -- I don't see him as the 80ies version of Gerry Cheevers. But... meh, for how much time could he have been considered the best in the league? And who was his main competition then? That was before Roy (or, actually, before Roy became Roy) and Belfour. Smith was on the way out (still pretty good, but on the way out nonetheless). His other competitors are mainly the guys up for voting this round (and I guess one could add Mike Liut, Ron Hextall and Pete Peeters, though not all at the same time).

I think he's better than the "80ies/90ies newcomers" -- I don't know, I just can't resolve to rank him above both Lumley and Rayner, which basically explains why I don't have him in the Top-4.

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12-24-2012, 08:15 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Yeah, I was kind of wondering, do we just guess or does he tell us?
Nah, it's just a way like another to say that I'm in an X situation in regards to an available goalie. It's merely an opinion... or a fact related to my perception

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12-24-2012, 08:16 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Yeah, I was kind of wondering, do we just guess or does he tell us?
Nah, it's just a way like another to say that I'm in an X situation in regards to an available goalie. It's merely an opinion... or a fact related to my perception

And come to think of it, he'd be above Joseph (Joseph is still a very interesting new entry, though)

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12-24-2012, 08:24 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I just don't see any way that Fuhr doesn't make the top 4. For a few years in the late 80s, he was often considered the best goalie in the world. Is there anyone but Fuhr left on the list who can make the claim that a significant number of people thought he was the best in the world over a number of years (after World War I)? I thought last round the only ones left who could even make that claim were Lehman, Thompson, and Fuhr, and now Fuhr's the only one left. He was very good in the playoffs, and has good longevity too (although he was certainly up and down after the 80s).

What's your case against Fuhr?
How many of the other goalies were also considered among the very worst for a significant stretch of years?

I'm undecided on Fuhr, he might sneak into my top 4 but I would bet against it actually happening. He's like an inconsistent and updated version of Cheevers.

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12-24-2012, 08:46 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Yeah, you're probably right. 15 games in 1932-33 and 1 game in 1933-34. That's when he seems to have lost his starting job for a bit. Should have put two and two together, since there was so much talk of him losing his starting job. Though losing his starting job for a bit doesn't really make him unique among goalies this round.
He retired in '33, actually. Don't know if arranging to come back to Ottawa for his final season came with the understanding that young up-and-comer Bill Beveridge would get the bulk of the starts, but those 15 games were supposed to be his last season. After getting the call to replace an injured Worters, though, he decided to come back to the game full time, and found a spot with Montreal. That's the "comeback". He came back from retirement and possibly had his best season post to post.

Sounds like the Brett Favre of early hockey, lol.

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12-24-2012, 09:05 PM
  #361
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Ugh. Forgot about Rayner. Will be interesting to see how high he can get off of a three year window, a penchant for rushing the puck, and what-ifs from enlisting.

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12-24-2012, 09:41 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
I don't know. Maybe because I remember Fuhr being somewhat of a good goalie, but no more? Sometimes, it's okay to question media reports, and from I've seen from Fuhr, I just never had the impression he was the greatest at a given point.

I'll be clear -- I don't see him as the 80ies version of Gerry Cheevers. But... meh, for how much time could he have been considered the best in the league? And who was his main competition then? That was before Roy (or, actually, before Roy became Roy) and Belfour. Smith was on the way out (still pretty good, but on the way out nonetheless). His other competitors are mainly the guys up for voting this round (and I guess one could add Mike Liut, Ron Hextall and Pete Peeters, though not all at the same time).

I think he's better than the "80ies/90ies newcomers" -- I don't know, I just can't resolve to rank him above both Lumley and Rayner, which basically explains why I don't have him in the Top-4.
Oddly enough, I can better relate to this point more than anything we've discussed in the past few pages actually.

I've gone back and watched Fuhr and Billy Smith, also seen some of the other major goalies of the 80's (Liut, Peeters, etc. but didn't scout them closely yet). I made a long post about Smith being the goalie based on anticipation and positioning and fitting the defensive Islanders very well as a result. Similarly, Fuhr was more acrobatic it seems, reflex-based and fit the Oilers much better as well. The Oilers are more prone to give up an odd-man rush or to turn the puck over in their own end...so Fuhr's acrobatics (and previously, Moog was of similar style, though less talented and efficient in my estimation) were needed for the Oilers to have success.

Who was better than Fuhr though in the 80's? Assuming you favor positional guys, I assume Smith is one...Peeters?

Fuhr was also on both the '84 and '87 Canada Cup teams which has some merit. '87 he was named the best goaltender of the tournament as well. Put up numbers similar to the pack (minus Vanbiesbrouck, who didn't make it to tournament play despite his best efforts) despite having to face the Soviets 4 times in 9 games.

I would like some more information on Lumley, Rayner and Worsley though...I'm having trouble placing them, to be quite honest...

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12-24-2012, 10:19 PM
  #363
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Oddly enough, I can better relate to this point more than anything we've discussed in the past few pages actually.

I've gone back and watched Fuhr and Billy Smith, also seen some of the other major goalies of the 80's (Liut, Peeters, etc. but didn't scout them closely yet). I made a long post about Smith being the goalie based on anticipation and positioning and fitting the defensive Islanders very well as a result. Similarly, Fuhr was more acrobatic it seems, reflex-based and fit the Oilers much better as well. The Oilers are more prone to give up an odd-man rush or to turn the puck over in their own end...so Fuhr's acrobatics (and previously, Moog was of similar style, though less talented and efficient in my estimation) were needed for the Oilers to have success.

Who was better than Fuhr though in the 80's? Assuming you favor positional guys, I assume Smith is one...Peeters?

Fuhr was also on both the '84 and '87 Canada Cup teams which has some merit. '87 he was named the best goaltender of the tournament as well. Put up numbers similar to the pack (minus Vanbiesbrouck, who didn't make it to tournament play despite his best efforts) despite having to face the Soviets 4 times in 9 games.

I would like some more information on Lumley, Rayner and Worsley though...I'm having trouble placing them, to be quite honest...
Peeters was crafted by Jacques Plante somewhat in his own image.

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12-25-2012, 05:47 AM
  #364
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
He retired in '33, actually. Don't know if arranging to come back to Ottawa for his final season came with the understanding that young up-and-comer Bill Beveridge would get the bulk of the starts, but those 15 games were supposed to be his last season. After getting the call to replace an injured Worters, though, he decided to come back to the game full time, and found a spot with Montreal. That's the "comeback". He came back from retirement and possibly had his best season post to post.

Sounds like the Brett Favre of early hockey, lol.
The full story is that Connell had an injury in early december in 32. That did give Beveridge chance to prove himself and he did well. Even after Connell came back he had trouble to get the starter job back.

October 7 1933 Ottawa announced that they would chose another one as their starter to coming season after seeing them perform in training camp.

October 19 1933 Connell announced that he would "retire" as a reserve goalie. Reason given "devote his entire time to his business"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...l+retire&hl=en

So basicaly not really lost his job. Maybe he did feel that his career was coming to an end? Not that highly important in big picture. Just because I started the speculation.

And thanks for the quoting advices. I was afraid that it would be the case .


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12-25-2012, 09:56 AM
  #365
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Startling statement : I think Grant Fuhr doesn't belong in the Top-4.

Flame away.
Does Fuhr's coke usage play into anyone's analysis?

Was his usage in Edmonton helping his performance?

Did his usage take its toll and lead to him not being the same performer after Edmonton?

Does it matter at all?

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12-25-2012, 10:01 AM
  #366
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Peeters was crafted by Jacques Plante somewhat in his own image.
How so? I wasnt aware he'd been coached by Plante directly or erstwhile through the "Jacques Plante School of thought" in terms of how to play the game. Was there a connection in Edmonton, Peeters hometown & where Plante played for the Oilers in the WHA for awhile?... Interesting guy was Pete Peeters. Marched to his own drummer. Swimming was his first love, took up hockey later than most, but showed well enough to play Major Junior for Medicine Hat in the WHL; Drafted by Philly. Couple of years in the AHL & IHL. Refused to report when called up one Christmas when his parents were visiting from Alberta interrupting the festivities I guess and much to the Flyers dismay. Went on to set a record of 35 Wins etc etc etc. Moved on to Boston, then Washington of course, winding down back in Philadelphia I believe. Didnt like the then vogue 3 goalie rotation & the pressures it put on him. Post hockey was a Goalie Coach with several teams.

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12-25-2012, 10:03 AM
  #367
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Oddly enough, I can better relate to this point more than anything we've discussed in the past few pages actually.

I've gone back and watched Fuhr and Billy Smith, also seen some of the other major goalies of the 80's (Liut, Peeters, etc. but didn't scout them closely yet). I made a long post about Smith being the goalie based on anticipation and positioning and fitting the defensive Islanders very well as a result. Similarly, Fuhr was more acrobatic it seems, reflex-based and fit the Oilers much better as well. The Oilers are more prone to give up an odd-man rush or to turn the puck over in their own end...so Fuhr's acrobatics (and previously, Moog was of similar style, though less talented and efficient in my estimation) were needed for the Oilers to have success.

Who was better than Fuhr though in the 80's? Assuming you favor positional guys, I assume Smith is one...Peeters?

Fuhr was also on both the '84 and '87 Canada Cup teams which has some merit. '87 he was named the best goaltender of the tournament as well. Put up numbers similar to the pack (minus Vanbiesbrouck, who didn't make it to tournament play despite his best efforts) despite having to face the Soviets 4 times in 9 games.

I would like some more information on Lumley, Rayner and Worsley though...I'm having trouble placing them, to be quite honest...
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I give no attention whatsoever to style.

I understand that some styles fit better than others in some contexts, but in the end, that is "factored" in the results of the goalie. It's perfectly understandable why a guy like Roy did great with Montreal, and why he "probably" wouldn't have done so great with the Oilers (even though he was pretty good behind the closest thing there was to a run-n-gun team later on). In the same order of ideas, there is probably a reason why Pete Peeters ended up goaltending for the Flyers, the Bruins and the Caps (three teams considered "defensive" during that era).

In other words, I don't think there's a style who is better than another. I understand that style has a little more importance than for skaters (by style, PK Subban would actually be the best D-Men in the NHL -- while he's actually a fringe Top-15, all things considered), but even then, there are elements of style amongst skaters that has to be considered (namely, physical play). Some styles just happens to be better fits.

I don't give THAT much attention to the rosters of Canada Cup (especially as far as Canada is concerned). Patrick Roy said something lately on TV about that (outperforming Hextall, yet Hextall was picked, and Hextall having great playoffs was irrelevant, as both had their Connie Smythes). Granted, Fuhr being on Team Canada strongly hinted that he was better than, say, Greg Millen, but it's nothing we didn't know by then.

I think Fuhr's placement in the rankings has to be related to Andy Moog in some fashion. He was actually better than Moog as an Oiler (and as a whole), but the gap wasn't exactly huge. Fuhr was obviously a better playoff performer, but he also had a stretch of bad years, something Moog never really had. And Moog is obviously not up for voting yet (and I'm not sure he'll be either).

I think "bad seasons" have to be considered, unless they are totally pre-prime or totally post-prime. Fuhr isn't the only goalie to have had bad years (Vachon, amongst others), but the later was totally post-prime.

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12-25-2012, 10:07 AM
  #368
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Does Fuhr's coke usage play into anyone's analysis?

Was his usage in Edmonton helping his performance?

Did his usage take its toll and lead to him not being the same performer after Edmonton?

Does it matter at all?
I'm tempted to answer "no" to the first question (and that makes the 3 others kindof moot).

I mean... That's coke. It has an euphoric effect, but i just fail to see how it could be considered a PED.

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12-25-2012, 10:43 AM
  #369
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Oddly enough, I can better relate to this point more than anything we've discussed in the past few pages actually.

I've gone back and watched Fuhr and Billy Smith, also seen some of the other major goalies of the 80's (Liut, Peeters, etc. but didn't scout them closely yet). I made a long post about Smith being the goalie based on anticipation and positioning and fitting the defensive Islanders very well as a result. Similarly, Fuhr was more acrobatic it seems, reflex-based and fit the Oilers much better as well. The Oilers are more prone to give up an odd-man rush or to turn the puck over in their own end...so Fuhr's acrobatics (and previously, Moog was of similar style, though less talented and efficient in my estimation) were needed for the Oilers to have success.

Who was better than Fuhr though in the 80's? Assuming you favor positional guys, I assume Smith is one...Peeters?

Fuhr was also on both the '84 and '87 Canada Cup teams which has some merit. '87 he was named the best goaltender of the tournament as well. Put up numbers similar to the pack (minus Vanbiesbrouck, who didn't make it to tournament play despite his best efforts) despite having to face the Soviets 4 times in 9 games.

I would like some more information on Lumley, Rayner and Worsley though...I'm having trouble placing them, to be quite honest...
I have Worsely, Lumley, and Rayner as my top 3 this round. There has been quite a bit of discussion on Worsely and Lumley in the past couple of rounds. I just can't see Worsely falling farther behind Bower as IMO they had very similar careers.

Lumley can't get a break from some people here. They downgrade his 2 great seasons and don't give him any credit for playing well with bad teams even though the Leafs gave up some solid players to obtain him.

Number 4 is still up in the air. Nothing has convinced me that Fuhr is a slam dunk top 4 this round. I really don't see much difference between him and Cheevers. Both had most of their success with high scoring teams.


Last edited by pappyline: 12-25-2012 at 11:00 AM.
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12-25-2012, 11:24 AM
  #370
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I have Worsely, Lumley, and Rayner as my top 3 this round. There has been quite a bit of discussion on Worsely and Lumley in the past couple of rounds. I just can't see Worsely falling farther behind Bower as IMO they had very similar careers.

Lumley can't get a break from some people here. They downgrade his 2 great seasons and don't give him any credit for playing well with bad teams even though the Leafs gave up some solid players to obtain him.

Number 4 is still up in the air. Nothing has convinced me that Fuhr is a slam dunk top 4 this round. I really don't see much difference between him and Cheevers. Both had most of their success with high scoring teams.
I was a bit high on Worsley, but I dunno, C1958's opinions made me temper my enthousiasm a bit.

I do think Rayner and Lumley are solid Top-4 candidates this round. I've been a bit harsh on Lumley... mainly because I thought he was just before his time... and that I'm just not sure he was a better goalie than Rayner. I still think Toronto's years were a bit of lightning in a bottle, but nobody available at this point had such a 2 season stretch.

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12-25-2012, 11:27 AM
  #371
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I have Worsely, Lumley, and Rayner as my top 3 this round. There has been quite a bit of discussion on Worsely and Lumley in the past couple of rounds. I just can't see Worsely falling farther behind Bower as IMO they had very similar careers.

Lumley can't get a break from some people here. They downgrade his 2 great seasons and don't give him any credit for playing well with bad teams even though the Leafs gave up some solid players to obtain him.

Number 4 is still up in the air. Nothing has convinced me that Fuhr is a slam dunk top 4 this round. I really don't see much difference between him and Cheevers. Both had most of their success with high scoring teams.
With Billy Smith already in, it seems Fuhr needs to be in soon. Very similar records with Fuhr playing in a bit higher scoring era (though they overlap). Seemed that when they played Fuhr was considered the better goalie, Smith more known for the playoffs, somewhat like Cheevers. Smith only played more than 46 games in a season once.

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12-25-2012, 11:35 AM
  #372
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I was a bit high on Worsley, but I dunno, C1958's opinions made me temper my enthousiasm a bit.

I do think Rayner and Lumley are solid Top-4 candidates this round. I've been a bit harsh on Lumley... mainly because I thought he was just before his time... and that I'm just not sure he was a better goalie than Rayner. I still think Toronto's years were a bit of lightning in a bottle, but nobody available at this point had such a 2 season stretch.
Me too.

C1958 has to be the premier source on Montreal goaltenders.

Bottom line on Rayner is still a short career that is 70 games under .500.

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12-25-2012, 11:43 AM
  #373
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How so? I wasnt aware he'd been coached by Plante directly or erstwhile through the "Jacques Plante School of thought" in terms of how to play the game. Was there a connection in Edmonton, Peeters hometown & where Plante played for the Oilers in the WHA for awhile?... Interesting guy was Pete Peeters. Marched to his own drummer. Swimming was his first love, took up hockey later than most, but showed well enough to play Major Junior for Medicine Hat in the WHL; Drafted by Philly. Couple of years in the AHL & IHL. Refused to report when called up one Christmas when his parents were visiting from Alberta interrupting the festivities I guess and much to the Flyers dismay. Went on to set a record of 35 Wins etc etc etc. Moved on to Boston, then Washington of course, winding down back in Philadelphia I believe. Didnt like the then vogue 3 goalie rotation & the pressures it put on him. Post hockey was a Goalie Coach with several teams.
Peeters was interviewed for the "Pioneers" doc on Plante and he explained how Plante's coaching essentially "made" him. From what I understand Plante was something of a "goalie consultant" in the last years of his life.

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12-25-2012, 11:43 AM
  #374
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Me too.

C1958 has to be the premier source on Montreal goaltenders.

Bottom line on Rayner is still a short career that is 70 games under .500.
This is exactly a case where W-L statistics are somewhat misleading. Nobody would have posted a positive W-L record while playing with first the Amerks, and then the Rangers. Worsley and Bower both posted negative records while playing for them... during an era where the team was better as a whole.

The sad thing with Rayner is that he lost what should have been good years for him (WWII) -- his situation is quite similar to D-Men Ken Reardon, of which I was one of the biggest advocates in the D-Men voting -- both had decent seasons but did not quite establish themselves as top dogs at their positions before leaving, and ended having somewhat shorter careers than they should've had.

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12-25-2012, 11:56 AM
  #375
Morgoth Bauglir
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
How so? I wasnt aware he'd been coached by Plante directly or erstwhile through the "Jacques Plante School of thought" in terms of how to play the game. Was there a connection in Edmonton, Peeters hometown & where Plante played for the Oilers in the WHA for awhile?... Interesting guy was Pete Peeters. Marched to his own drummer. Swimming was his first love, took up hockey later than most, but showed well enough to play Major Junior for Medicine Hat in the WHL; Drafted by Philly. Couple of years in the AHL & IHL. Refused to report when called up one Christmas when his parents were visiting from Alberta interrupting the festivities I guess and much to the Flyers dismay. Went on to set a record of 35 Wins etc etc etc. Moved on to Boston, then Washington of course, winding down back in Philadelphia I believe. Didnt like the then vogue 3 goalie rotation & the pressures it put on him. Post hockey was a Goalie Coach with several teams.
Got some corroborating source:

"Jacques Plante: The Man Who Changed the Face of Hockey"

http://books.google.com/books?id=j94...Je&dq=pete%20p

Apparently Plante was coaching in the Flyers organization in the late '70s - early '80s.

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