HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Marcel Dionne vs. Teemu Selanne

View Poll Results: Which player was better?
Marcel Dionne 50 58.14%
Teemu Selanne 36 41.86%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-24-2012, 10:49 PM
  #26
kmad
Riot Survivor
 
kmad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 32,076
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Could you expand on the bolded comment?

Playing with below average offensive defensemen tends to create relay assists for centers since such defensemen do not rush nor do they have the passing skills to get the stretch pass to the wingers directly.
You're almost suggesting that there's a pre-set number of assists to be distributed among the players.

Without defensemen who can capably rush the puck, less offense will be produced.

kmad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-25-2012, 01:22 AM
  #27
Czech Your Math
Registered User
 
Czech Your Math's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: bohemia
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,564
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
I agree. Comparing Dionne to Esposito is one thing. To Selanne is another. Selanne had a few years of being Dionne quality... Dionne had like 10 years.

Dionne gets overrated vs the very best and underrated vs the very, very good (and deserving HHOFers)
I can't agree. I think some of Dionne's "good" years look "very good" due to the era in which he played. I just don't see a lot of difference between the two, but if anything I think Selanne has more "quality" seasons.

I think these two and Thornton are like peas in a pod mostly, except they range from more of a goal-scorer (Selanne) to balanced (Dionne) to more of a playmaker (Thornton), and Thornton probably still has a few "good" years left. They're all elite scorers who played for a lot of mediocre teams, with very good ES (adjusted +/-) data, but haven't done a lot of damage in the playoffs.

Czech Your Math is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-25-2012, 02:25 AM
  #28
Hawkman
Moderator
 
Hawkman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,251
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
...I doubt most have Selanne in their top 50, and many may not have him in their top 100.
Here's where both went in the last ATD:

Quote:
86. Dwight - West Island Lions - Elmer Lach, C
87. Leafs Forever - Toronto St. Pats - Marcel Dionne, C
88. vecens24 - Hamilton Mustangs - Dave Keon, C
89. vecens24 - Hamilton Mustangs - Doug Gilmour, C
90. nik jr - Ak Bars Kazan - Zdeno Chara, D
91. JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers - Gilbert Perreault, C
92. tony d - Garnish Cougars - JC Tremblay, D
93. God Made Me & hungryhungryhippy - 1893 Montreal AAA - Doug Bentley, LW/C
94. Reds4Life - Detroit Reds - Sid Abel, C/LW
95. TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils - Teemu Selanne, RW
96. Brave Canadian - Guelph Platers - Brett Hull, RW
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1274053

Hawkman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-25-2012, 06:40 AM
  #29
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 11,000
vCash: 500
Not So

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagorim Jarg View Post
You're almost suggesting that there's a pre-set number of assists to be distributed among the players.

Without defensemen who can capably rush the puck, less offense will be produced.
There is a pre-set number of assists - two per goal.

Following demonstrates your bolded claim to be false - 1961-62 Canadiens scored more goals without Doug Harvey then they ever did with Doug Harvey:

Without Harvey:
http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MTL/1962.html

With Harvey:
http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MTL/1961.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MTL/1960.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MTL/1959.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MTL/1958.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MTL/1957.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MTL/1956.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MTL/1955.html

Still had Jacques Plante to direct the transition. Simply the centers came back deeper. Handled the puck earlier in the transition which took an extra pass or two. This meant the defenseman playing the puck originally would not get credit for an assist should a goal result.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-25-2012, 08:13 AM
  #30
Tmu84
- Tmuussoni
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Funland
Country:
Posts: 144
vCash: 500
Interesting poll.

Decided to vote blank, because in my opinion it's really impossible to compare these two players statistics-wise. They played in such different eras. Dionne did have more top 10 finishes, but can we honestly say he was the best in the world from 79-81? Imo, no, not until the early 90's when NHL's talent pool truly grew exponentially with the introduction of European and Russian players on regular basis.

Tmu84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-25-2012, 10:16 AM
  #31
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 7,841
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
I can't agree. I think some of Dionne's "good" years look "very good" due to the era in which he played. I just don't see a lot of difference between the two, but if anything I think Selanne has more "quality" seasons.

I think these two and Thornton are like peas in a pod mostly, except they range from more of a goal-scorer (Selanne) to balanced (Dionne) to more of a playmaker (Thornton), and Thornton probably still has a few "good" years left. They're all elite scorers who played for a lot of mediocre teams, with very good ES (adjusted +/-) data, but haven't done a lot of damage in the playoffs.
I'd say Dionne's teams were considerably worse, especially compared to Thornton.

Thornton has actually played on primarily winning teams.

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-25-2012, 10:29 AM
  #32
Czech Your Math
Registered User
 
Czech Your Math's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: bohemia
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,564
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by God Made Me View Post
Here's where both went in the last ATD:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1274053
That lower than I would expect for Dionne.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
I'd say Dionne's teams were considerably worse, especially compared to Thornton.

Thornton has actually played on primarily winning teams.
You're right, Thornton did play on better teams than the other two. Selanne and Dionne were both on a lot of bad teams during their primes, which may help explain why they generally underperformed in the playoffs.

Czech Your Math is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-25-2012, 05:46 PM
  #33
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,338
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by God Made Me View Post
Here's where both went in the last ATD:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1274053
Seeing JC Tremblay in with those other players really stands out to me.

I'm not an ATD guy but I wonder if there is a premium on wingers and if centers slip a bit due to the abundance of great centers over time?

I also like Lach alot but his career is lacking compared to some of the other centers taken after him here.

And Dave Keon? I'm a career guy but his lack of peak and prime has him very over rated here and yes I know he was very good defensively.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-25-2012, 06:05 PM
  #34
kmad
Riot Survivor
 
kmad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 32,076
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
There is a pre-set number of assists - two per goal.

Following demonstrates your bolded claim to be false - 1961-62 Canadiens scored more goals without Doug Harvey then they ever did with Doug Harvey:

Without Harvey:
http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MTL/1962.html

With Harvey:
http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MTL/1961.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MTL/1960.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MTL/1959.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MTL/1958.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MTL/1957.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MTL/1956.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MTL/1955.html

Still had Jacques Plante to direct the transition. Simply the centers came back deeper. Handled the puck earlier in the transition which took an extra pass or two. This meant the defenseman playing the puck originally would not get credit for an assist should a goal result.
I would think that would be an anomaly? Seems common sense to me that a team less capable of creating offensive chances would have fewer total assists to go around.

kmad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-25-2012, 06:06 PM
  #35
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,215
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Seeing JC Tremblay in with those other players really stands out to me.

I'm not an ATD guy but I wonder if there is a premium on wingers and if centers slip a bit due to the abundance of great centers over time?

I also like Lach alot but his career is lacking compared to some of the other centers taken after him here.

And Dave Keon? I'm a career guy but his lack of peak and prime has him very over rated here and yes I know he was very good defensively.
ATD has a premium on defensemen. I don't really think it has one on wingers, because a lot of GMs think center is a much more important than wingers (a position I don't neccessary agree with).

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-25-2012, 06:10 PM
  #36
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,338
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Could you expand on the bolded comment?

Playing with below average offensive defensemen tends to create relay assists for centers since such defensemen do not rush nor do they have the passing skills to get the stretch pass to the wingers directly.
Simply put Dionne didn't have a PP QB type to assist him being an offensive threat that almost every other top scoring forward has on their resumes.

This relationship, or rather the lack of it, has more to do with Dionne the goal scorer than Dionne the play maker.

Even with linemates, it's pretty clear that Dionne was the focal point foe the Triple Crown line as well.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-25-2012, 06:19 PM
  #37
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,338
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
ATD has a premium on defensemen. I don't really think it has one on wingers, because a lot of GMs think center is a much more important than wingers (a position I don't neccessary agree with).
I had a quick look at the link and Tremblay still went 30th (didn't include Kelly and Taylor in that 30) among Dmen which is okay if you don't adjust for era or buy into his WHA stats translating, but that's extremely dubious and high IMO.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-25-2012, 07:52 PM
  #38
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 11,000
vCash: 500
Team Offence

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagorim Jarg View Post
I would think that would be an anomaly? Seems common sense to me that a team less capable of creating offensive chances would have fewer total assists to go around.
Team offence is easier to generate from a balanced defensive corp and forwards.

Take any great offensive defenseman you want, they play around thirty minutes a game. So what happens to the offence the rest of the game? It has to adjust to a puck movement game getting everyone involved.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-25-2012, 08:02 PM
  #39
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 11,000
vCash: 500
First Pass

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Simply put Dionne didn't have a PP QB type to assist him being an offensive threat that almost every other top scoring forward has on their resumes.

This relationship, or rather the lack of it, has more to do with Dionne the goal scorer than Dionne the play maker.

Even with linemates, it's pretty clear that Dionne was the focal point foe the Triple Crown line as well.
All Dionne really needed was a good first pass defenseman. From Gary Bergman onwards he had such defensemen throughout his career.

Problem was that Marcel Dionne played high(euphamism for avoided defence) and first pass defensemen will not risk the long pass up the middle.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-28-2012, 12:13 AM
  #40
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,505
vCash: 500
I'll ride Dionne on these boards once in a while, but he beats Selanne in this poll for sure. Selanne has the Cup and a couple of nice playoff runs later in his career (which led to a Cup) but before that his playoff portfolio was very much like Dionne's. I think we can all agree that neither Selanne or Dionne brought a whole lot to the table in the form of intangibles so we are judging them on their offense. Dionne just simply wins this because he didn't have any breaks in his career. Just the normal ones (first couple years and then last years of tailing off). But in between we are talking about a perennial 100+ point guy for 12-13 years. That is just insane and there has to be a time when you just can't ignore the offense a player brings. Selanne has the international career to make up for it a bit but that still leaves him clearly behind.

If Selanne doesn't have that gap in his career of about 4 years (2000-'04) then we may have a different ballgame. But he did have that gap and Dionne was a player who just kept scoring year after year. He competed with Lafleur, Trottier, Bossy and for a year and a bit, Gretzky. He outpointed guys like Perreault, Clarke and Sittler by large degrees. Eventually you just have to say enough is enough.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-28-2012, 07:16 AM
  #41
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
 
quoipourquoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hockeytown, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 3,204
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I think we can all agree that neither Selanne or Dionne brought a whole lot to the table in the form of intangibles
Selanne's international play? I think he should have been removed from the Dionne-playoff category when he led his second best-on-best Olympics in scoring (Dionne was under a point-per-game in his two Canada Cups). And he gets punished too much for playing hurt in light of how he stretched out his career (drafted in 1988; top-10 scorer in 2011, team-leading scorer in 2012). With all due respect to Dionne's longevity, he stopped doing either of those at 33. The longer Selanne plays, the less and less 2003 and 2004 should matter.

quoipourquoi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-28-2012, 02:06 PM
  #42
Czech Your Math
Registered User
 
Czech Your Math's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: bohemia
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,564
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I'll ride Dionne on these boards once in a while, but he beats Selanne in this poll for sure. Selanne has the Cup and a couple of nice playoff runs later in his career (which led to a Cup) but before that his playoff portfolio was very much like Dionne's.
That's true, but Selanne does have some decent playoffs post-lockout, and has been very good internationally as well. At worst, his playoffs are about equal to Dionne's, and at best his playoff/international record is significantly better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Dionne just simply wins this because he didn't have any breaks in his career. Just the normal ones (first couple years and then last years of tailing off). But in between we are talking about a perennial 100+ point guy for 12-13 years. That is just insane and there has to be a time when you just can't ignore the offense a player brings. Selanne has the international career to make up for it a bit but that still leaves him clearly behind.

If Selanne doesn't have that gap in his career of about 4 years (2000-'04) then we may have a different ballgame. But he did have that gap and Dionne was a player who just kept scoring year after year. He competed with Lafleur, Trottier, Bossy and for a year and a bit, Gretzky. He outpointed guys like Perreault, Clarke and Sittler by large degrees. Eventually you just have to say enough is enough.
I think you're overstating Dionne's consistency/productivity a bit. He scored 100+ in 8/11 seasons in his prime, although 90+ in 12/12 seasons. Selanne scored over PPG in each of his first 8 seasons, and 3 more post-lockout. I just don't see much difference in their productivity, except that Dionne played in higher scoring eras and did not have the interruption due to injury which Selanne did, while Selanne was the better goal scorer.

I'm not sure exactly how you're defining it, but do you think Dionne outpointing Perreault, Clarke and Sittler is more impressive than the players Selanne outpointed (whether in single seasons or over a stretch of multiple seasons)? His first 8 seasons in the league, he outpointed everyone but Jagr, including Sakic, Oates, Yzerman, Lindros, Fedorov, etc.

Czech Your Math is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-28-2012, 02:37 PM
  #43
kmad
Riot Survivor
 
kmad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 32,076
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Team offence is easier to generate from a balanced defensive corp and forwards.

Take any great offensive defenseman you want, they play around thirty minutes a game. So what happens to the offence the rest of the game? It has to adjust to a puck movement game getting everyone involved.
Take away that great offensive defenseman and now you have 60 minutes where the puck has more trouble moving into the offensive zone.

Simply needing to adjust to a wider puck movement game doesn't instantly make it happen. Not every team is going to have the center depth of the dynasty Habs.

kmad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-28-2012, 02:59 PM
  #44
Regal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,961
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Selanne's international play? I think he should have been removed from the Dionne-playoff category when he led his second best-on-best Olympics in scoring (Dionne was under a point-per-game in his two Canada Cups). And he gets punished too much for playing hurt in light of how he stretched out his career (drafted in 1988; top-10 scorer in 2011, team-leading scorer in 2012). With all due respect to Dionne's longevity, he stopped doing either of those at 33. The longer Selanne plays, the less and less 2003 and 2004 should matter.
How is Olympic scoring a sign of bringing things outside of scoring? Selanne was great in the Olympics, but he was also in a good position to place well in scoring. Finland has always been a competitive team with him being their best offensive player. When you're always put in the best offensive position for your team, it's going to put you at an advantage to the teams with greater offensive depth. The short tournament format, chemistry and big ice also favour him there.

Regal is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-28-2012, 03:26 PM
  #45
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,017
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Regal View Post
How is Olympic scoring a sign of bringing things outside of scoring? Selanne was great in the Olympics, but he was also in a good position to place well in scoring. Finland has always been a competitive team with him being their best offensive player. When you're always put in the best offensive position for your team, it's going to put you at an advantage to the teams with greater offensive depth. The short tournament format, chemistry and big ice also favour him there.
misinterpretation of the word "intangibles".

seventieslord is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-28-2012, 04:00 PM
  #46
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 11,000
vCash: 500
Flyers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagorim Jarg View Post
Take away that great offensive defenseman and now you have 60 minutes where the puck has more trouble moving into the offensive zone.

Simply needing to adjust to a wider puck movement game doesn't instantly make it happen. Not every team is going to have the center depth of the dynasty Habs.
Shero Flyers say hello. Then you have the Gilbert Perreault Sabres, both contemporaries of Dionne. Teams were very effective moving the puck into the offensive zone.

Move the timeline to the Doug Gilmour Leafs, or the present day Tampa Bay Lightning, recent Carolina Hurricanes, Sedin/Naslund era Canucks. Best first pass defenseman is the level of a Dave Ellett.

There was also a commitment to defensive play from the lead forward(s)

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-28-2012, 04:10 PM
  #47
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,505
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
I think you're overstating Dionne's consistency/productivity a bit. He scored 100+ in 8/11 seasons in his prime, although 90+ in 12/12 seasons. Selanne scored over PPG in each of his first 8 seasons, and 3 more post-lockout. I just don't see much difference in their productivity, except that Dionne played in higher scoring eras and did not have the interruption due to injury which Selanne did, while Selanne was the better goal scorer.

I'm not sure exactly how you're defining it, but do you think Dionne outpointing Perreault, Clarke and Sittler is more impressive than the players Selanne outpointed (whether in single seasons or over a stretch of multiple seasons)? His first 8 seasons in the league, he outpointed everyone but Jagr, including Sakic, Oates, Yzerman, Lindros, Fedorov, etc.
It is similar, but like you said, the gap in Selanne's career hurts him and if he doesn't have that gap then who knows? But let's just look at Dionne for a second here. The guy never stopped scoring. He started out with a 77 point year. Then 90. Then 78 then 121. He has his first and last 100 point year 10 years apart. That's amazing, era regardless. And these were 130 point years, or 120. Not just squeaking in at 100.

I never did this with these two players so I tried it here (sorry if someone did this already) Top 20 points finishes:

Dionne - 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 12, 13, 13, 14, 17, 18, 18, 20
Selanne - 2, 2, 5, 5, 7, 8, 8, 12, 14, 19

Look, would we be selling Dionne short if we compared him offensively to Selanne? I think we would. Dionne did one thing extremely well and as good as few ever have, and that's score. He did too much of that to ignore it. Selanne's slightly better playoff record can't close the gap. I mean, Selanne was never neck and neck with the Art Ross winner, not even once. Dionne WAS an Art Ross winner and the kid he beat out was Gretzky. He was right there in the thick of things a few times, much closer than Selanne got. He had far too many elite seasons at the top for Selanne to be considered better than him. Dionne just simply never stopped scoring until his retirement year. That's a fabulous accomplishment because he crossed over doing it in two decades against some top end offensive talent. I am not saying Selanne didn't have the competition either, but he stood out less than Dionne.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Selanne's international play? I think he should have been removed from the Dionne-playoff category when he led his second best-on-best Olympics in scoring (Dionne was under a point-per-game in his two Canada Cups). And he gets punished too much for playing hurt in light of how he stretched out his career (drafted in 1988; top-10 scorer in 2011, team-leading scorer in 2012). With all due respect to Dionne's longevity, he stopped doing either of those at 33. The longer Selanne plays, the less and less 2003 and 2004 should matter.
Dionne still racked up 84 points in 1986-'87 at 35 years old. The guy had 126 points two years earlier. It isn't that Selanne doesn't have longevity either, because he does but I think even with his Olympic runs (no Gold medals) he still falls short behind Dionne.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-28-2012, 06:13 PM
  #48
kmad
Riot Survivor
 
kmad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 32,076
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Shero Flyers say hello. Then you have the Gilbert Perreault Sabres, both contemporaries of Dionne. Teams were very effective moving the puck into the offensive zone.

Move the timeline to the Doug Gilmour Leafs, or the present day Tampa Bay Lightning, recent Carolina Hurricanes, Sedin/Naslund era Canucks. Best first pass defenseman is the level of a Dave Ellett.

There was also a commitment to defensive play from the lead forward(s)
I can't speak from knowledge of any of the other teams, but the Sedin/Naslund era Canucks first had Ed Jovanovski (who was boneheaded on D but a great puck mover) and Alex Edler (similar to Jovanovski but slightly better and more consistent), each better at puck moving than Dave Ellett.

Still, if any of those teams had a Paul Coffey or a Larry Murphy or a Phil Housley, they'd probably score many more points than they did without those PMDs. Those are examples of franchises succeeding despite having an elite PMD, not because of it. Do you think the Oilers or Penguins would have scored as much without Coffey? Senators without Karlsson?

Do you not think Marcel Dionne eclipses 2000 points if he has Brad Park wheeling the play behind him for a decade?

kmad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-28-2012, 07:59 PM
  #49
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 11,000
vCash: 500
PMDs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagorim Jarg View Post
I can't speak from knowledge of any of the other teams, but the Sedin/Naslund era Canucks first had Ed Jovanovski (who was boneheaded on D but a great puck mover) and Alex Edler (similar to Jovanovski but slightly better and more consistent), each better at puck moving than Dave Ellett.

Still, if any of those teams had a Paul Coffey or a Larry Murphy or a Phil Housley, they'd probably score many more points than they did without those PMDs. Those are examples of franchises succeeding despite having an elite PMD, not because of it. Do you think the Oilers or Penguins would have scored as much without Coffey? Senators without Karlsson?

Do you not think Marcel Dionne eclipses 2000 points if he has Brad Park wheeling the play behind him for a decade?
Ellett had 9 seasons of 30 or more assists. Combined Jovanovski and Edler had/have 6 such seasons. Suggest revisiting your comparable.

Mario Lemieux put up points without Coffey as did Yzerman. Park played with Jean Ratelle, for more than ten seasons and Ratelle did not come close to 2000 points.

You still have not overcome the basic issue that Park would only play roughly half of Ratelle's ES shifts plus a solid majority of Ratelle's PP time. Same for any center that you insert.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-28-2012, 08:00 PM
  #50
kmad
Riot Survivor
 
kmad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 32,076
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Ellett had 9 seasons of 30 or more assists. Combined Jovanovski and Edler had/have 6 such seasons. Suggest revisiting your comparable.
Oh come on.

1) Ellett played in the 1980s
2) Jovanovski had many injury shortened seasons
3) Edler is in his mid-20s

kmad is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:49 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.