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Garrioch: Penguins pursuing Gonchar

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Old
12-26-2012, 10:35 AM
  #126
JTG
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The Pens giving up anything of great value for Gonchar is silly. The highest pick I'd give up is a 4th, and I think even that is too much. Pens would be dealing from a position of great strength as Pittsburgh is where Gonchar wants to be, and Ottawa is going to lose him for nothing anyways.

Not seeing how this scenario is any different than the Kovalev deal, aside from the fact that Ottawa really needs a defenseman.

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Originally Posted by bigd View Post
I could see both Bortuzzo and Strait going for Gonchar. That's who they are going to dangle because both are waiver eligable. We only have to pay Gonchar for a 1/2 season so I think it would be a good move. After that we can see where our young D-men are and if they are ready to move up. No way would I move Despres. He's NHL ready for a top 4 spot. If Bortuzzo and Strait aren't moved he may not get it this season.
Trading either guy for Sarge is bad asset management, IMO.

Letang, Martin, Niskanen, Orpik, Bortuzzo, Strait, Engelland should be the 7. Not seeing why the Pens should really trade for the guy at this point, as it makes more sense to play Strait and Bortuzzo, and then maybe flip them after they prove themselves a little more, which I think they undoubtedly will.

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Old
12-26-2012, 10:40 AM
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTG View Post
The Pens giving up anything of great value for Gonchar is silly. The highest pick I'd give up is a 4th, and I think even that is too much. Pens would be dealing from a position of great strength as Pittsburgh is where Gonchar wants to be, and Ottawa is going to lose him for nothing anyways.

Not seeing how this scenario is any different than the Kovalev deal, aside from the fact that Ottawa really needs a defenseman.



Trading either guy for Sarge is bad asset management, IMO.

Letang, Martin, Niskanen, Orpik, Bortuzzo, Strait, Engelland should be the 7. Not seeing why the Pens should really trade for the guy at this point, as it makes more sense to play Strait and Bortuzzo, and then maybe flip them after they prove themselves a little more, which I think they undoubtedly will.
I think it'd be smart to make a move for a stop gap veteran Defenseman to Pitt. Give the young guys some more time to develop and improve

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12-26-2012, 10:51 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by hlaverty06 View Post
I think it'd be smart to make a move for a stop gap veteran Defenseman to Pitt. Give the young guys some more time to develop and improve
The thing is, the Pens currently have 8 NHL defensemen, as Bortuzzo and Strait cannot be sent back down as they are waiver eligible. Sarge is a good stop gap, you are correct, but I don't find him a necessary stop gap, and a lot of Pens fans feel the same.

Like I said, I think the better option is to run with what the organization has, and visit the Gonchar scenario in the offseason when he's a free agent. Then maybe the team will know where they stand with Strait and Bortuzzo.

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12-26-2012, 11:24 AM
  #129
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A) there's not gonna be a season

B) the Sens were a playoff team last year - and Gonch was a pretty big part of it.

Pass barring an overpayment

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Old
12-26-2012, 12:00 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
Pens would be dealing from a position of great strength as Pittsburgh is where Gonchar wants to be, and Ottawa is going to lose him for nothing anyways.
Position of strength? You mean Ottawa is in that position, We don't have to deal him to Pittsburgh, but to the highest bidder. He's necessary for us to make the playoffs, and I'd rather keep him for the year unless a very good offer comes.

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Old
12-26-2012, 12:18 PM
  #131
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I'd like to see Brooks Oprik dealt for Jared Tinordi!

I know certain Sens fans would like to get a great return, but be realistic. When was the last time a declining player was dealt for high value return?

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12-26-2012, 01:36 PM
  #132
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I know certain Pens fans would like to trade away scrubs, but be realistic. When was the last time a top 4 dman, when defensive depth was lacking, was dealt for low value return?

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12-26-2012, 01:39 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
I know certain Pens fans would like to trade away scrubs, but be realistic. When was the last time a top 4 dman, when defensive depth was lacking, was dealt for low value return?
A) He's barely a Top-4 defenseman. So he shouldn't bring back high return.
B) If he is that important, which is very telling on Ottawa's part, then he shouldn't be dealt.

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12-26-2012, 01:42 PM
  #134
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I know certain Pens fans would like to trade away scrubs, but be realistic. When was the last time a top 4 dman, when defensive depth was lacking, was dealt for low value return?
Ľubomír Višňovský for a second this summer. Considering that trade was for a full season not a possible half-season/rental I would say Gonchar is worth less than a 2nd round pick.

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Old
12-26-2012, 02:02 PM
  #135
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The OP is dumb.

Dater didn't even go to the trouble of ripping off Garrioch's story, he merely linked to it.


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12-26-2012, 02:12 PM
  #136
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Great to hear. With all of the quality defensemen the Pens should have coming through the pipeline, it would be great to see a a player like Gonch grooming them. He's also still a very good player and can boost any PP.

Also he just seems like a top notch person and I would love to see him on the Pens bench when his playing days are over.

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12-26-2012, 02:12 PM
  #137
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A) He's barely a Top-4 defenseman. So he shouldn't bring back high return.
B) If he is that important, which is very telling on Ottawa's part, then he shouldn't be dealt.
huh?

He was the #3 D on a playoff team in 2011-12. He would be AT LEAST the #4 in Pitts, I would take him ahead of Martin as well. Probably on par with Orpik. So he would be #2/3 in Pitts, how is he barely a top 4?

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Ľubomír Višňovský for a second this summer. Considering that trade was for a full season not a possible half-season/rental I would say Gonchar is worth less than a 2nd round pick.
Teams overpay at the trade deadline. Gonchar would get a 2nd rounder, no doubt.

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Old
12-26-2012, 02:14 PM
  #138
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If Malkin insists that Gonchar is traded for then i could see some top defensive prospect heading Ottawa way.

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12-26-2012, 02:34 PM
  #139
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huh?

He was the #3 D on a playoff team in 2011-12. He would be AT LEAST the #4 in Pitts, I would take him ahead of Martin as well. Probably on par with Orpik. So he would be #2/3 in Pitts, how is he barely a top 4?
If he's a #3 on Ottawa, then that's indicative of their overall defense, not a reflection of him. As for the Pens... if players like Martin and Orpik rebound, then he wouldn't be a #2 or #3.

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12-26-2012, 03:10 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by HavlatMach9 View Post
Position of strength? You mean Ottawa is in that position, We don't have to deal him to Pittsburgh, but to the highest bidder. He's necessary for us to make the playoffs, and I'd rather keep him for the year unless a very good offer comes.
Gonchar is leaving Ottawa in what is 48 games now. As it's rumored, Pittsburgh is at the top of his list, and odds are he'll be in Pittsburgh next season at a much reduced rate. The Pens do not need him how things stand now, as they have 8 defensemen how things stand now. So Ottawa can lose him for something, or lose him for nothing. Pens have nothing to lose.

The fact that Gonchar is said to want to only come back to Pittsburgh would turn him into a pure rental for a team, and that'd drastically reduce his value.

A team would be crazy to give up anything more than a 4th round pick for him. He doesn't bring enough to the table anymore defensively to justify giving a top 60 pick.

Shero is not going to over pay for a guy that he refused to give an extra year to. Ray is cut throat with veterans in decline, as can be seen with the deals he has pulled off for veterans at the deadline.

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12-26-2012, 03:48 PM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTG View Post
1 So Ottawa can lose him for something, or lose him for nothing. Pens have nothing to lose.

2 The fact that Gonchar is said to want to only come back to Pittsburgh would turn him into a pure rental for a team, and that'd drastically reduce his value.

3 A team would be crazy to give up anything more than a 4th round pick for him. He doesn't bring enough to the table anymore defensively to justify giving a top 60 pick.
1) Ottawa is also an NHL team. We, too, use NHL players.

2) Gonchar has very little say in the issue, and besides that you completely made this up.

3) He was like 25th in DMan scoring and played over 22 mins a game on a playoff team. Please provide anything close to a precedent for that statement. You literally just made that up to suit your desires (see: pretty much everything in your post)

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12-26-2012, 04:37 PM
  #142
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2/24/2007: Atlanta Thrashers traded Braydon Coburn to the Philadelphia Flyers for Alexei Zhitnik.

I mean, don't get me wrong, that was an absolutely brutal trade... but there is a precedent for it.
Just a side note . the islanders traded Zhitnik to Philly for Freddy Meyer. Holmgren got Coburn essentially for Meyer . Talk about trading up

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12-26-2012, 05:42 PM
  #143
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If Malkin insists that Gonchar is traded for then i could see some top defensive prospect heading Ottawa way.
Good thing there's no history of Malkin ever acting in such a way, and if he did, Shero would likely remind him who was the GM and who was the player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
I know certain Pens fans would like to trade away scrubs, but be realistic. When was the last time a top 4 dman, when defensive depth was lacking, was dealt for low value return?
As Sideline mentioned, Visnovsky last summer. The more pertinent question is when the last time any 38 year old defenseman was dealt for a top prospect.

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12-26-2012, 05:45 PM
  #144
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The thing is, the Pens currently have 8 NHL defensemen, as Bortuzzo and Strait cannot be sent back down as they are waiver eligible. Sarge is a good stop gap, you are correct, but I don't find him a necessary stop gap, and a lot of Pens fans feel the same.

Like I said, I think the better option is to run with what the organization has, and visit the Gonchar scenario in the offseason when he's a free agent. Then maybe the team will know where they stand with Strait and Bortuzzo.
I think he's ideal for half season. What the Pens need most is help on the PP and he brings that along with a locker room leadership presence. With a short season every game is going to be that much more important. We have plenty of D-men and it wouldn't hurt us at all to part with one or two, IMO. None of them bring what Gonchar could bring in a short season and we have the cap room. I'm not sure I would even want him back next year unless it was a one year contract at a greatly reduced price. He's exactly the type of rental player you want.

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12-26-2012, 06:27 PM
  #145
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I think he's ideal for half season. What the Pens need most is help on the PP and he brings that along with a locker room leadership presence. With a short season every game is going to be that much more important. We have plenty of D-men and it wouldn't hurt us at all to part with one or two, IMO. None of them bring what Gonchar could bring in a short season and we have the cap room. I'm not sure I would even want him back next year unless it was a one year contract at a greatly reduced price. He's exactly the type of rental player you want.
And his cap hit will only be 2.75M if we play 40games, less if dealt later in the season.

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12-26-2012, 09:15 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Sideline View Post
Ľubomír Višňovský for a second this summer. Considering that trade was for a full season not a possible half-season/rental I would say Gonchar is worth less than a 2nd round pick.
That was on the verge of a lockout. We would have received more if there wasn't the risk of losing a season hovering over that trade.

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12-26-2012, 09:46 PM
  #147
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Sorry guys, wasn't all there last night.

I was thinking Gonchar for Kuhnackhl

Maybe some salary going to Ottawa.

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Old
12-26-2012, 10:42 PM
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTG View Post
The Pens giving up anything of great value for Gonchar is silly. The highest pick I'd give up is a 4th, and I think even that is too much. Pens would be dealing from a position of great strength as Pittsburgh is where Gonchar wants to be, and Ottawa is going to lose him for nothing anyways.

Not seeing how this scenario is any different than the Kovalev deal, aside from the fact that Ottawa really needs a defenseman.



Trading either guy for Sarge is bad asset management, IMO.

Letang, Martin, Niskanen, Orpik, Bortuzzo, Strait, Engelland should be the 7. Not seeing why the Pens should really trade for the guy at this point, as it makes more sense to play Strait and Bortuzzo, and then maybe flip them after they prove themselves a little more, which I think they undoubtedly will.
Ah there's the rub!

You make it sound trivial, but that one fact is what makes a world of difference.

We traded Kovalev to you for a 7th because we were out of the playoffs and there was no point in keeping Kovy.

If Ottawa had a plethora of defence and were trying to make room for players while playing Gonchar base minutes just using him for PP then that would be one thing. He eats up a lot of minutes, adds leadership and more.

Karlsson has learned from Gonchar, as has Cowen. You could see it when they played. If Cowen made an error, Gonchar was there to encourage him and help guide him.

We are not (well most of us) overvaluing Gonchar. It is simple, we have a hole, trading Gonchar makes that hole bigger. The trade reward would have to be worth it for Ottawa to take the risk.

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12-26-2012, 10:49 PM
  #149
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Ah there's the rub!

You make it sound trivial, but that one fact is what makes a world of difference.

We traded Kovalev to you for a 7th because we were out of the playoffs and there was no point in keeping Kovy.


If Ottawa had a plethora of defence and were trying to make room for players while playing Gonchar base minutes just using him for PP then that would be one thing. He eats up a lot of minutes, adds leadership and more.

Karlsson has learned from Gonchar, as has Cowen. You could see it when they played. If Cowen made an error, Gonchar was there to encourage him and help guide him.

We are not (well most of us) overvaluing Gonchar. It is simple, we have a hole, trading Gonchar makes that hole bigger. The trade reward would have to be worth it for Ottawa to take the risk.
Also, and this goes without saying:
"2011-12 Gonchar" >>>>>> "2010-11 Kovalev"

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12-26-2012, 11:02 PM
  #150
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Ottawa fans seems to want to retain Gonchar much more than Pens fans want to re-acquire him.

Both sides ought to drop this one. Not least because of the source.

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